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I wouldn't say 6th is slower than 5th. Especially after GW FAQ'd how wound allocation works.

It takes a little longer to learn to play 6th edition, but once thats done the game plays faster IMO.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say 6th is slower than 5th. Especially after GW FAQ'd how wound allocation works.

It takes a little longer to learn to play 6th edition, but once thats done the game plays faster IMO.

You are wrong.

Did I say anything about wound allocation? Wound allocation is one of the only things that has gotten faster in 6th edition.

How many tournaments are using the random terrain?

Rolling on the psychic power charts isn't slow. I play psykers too.

Its no slower than Fantasy, and I can easily finish a 2500 game in 2 hours.



The only real slow thing with 6th was wound allocation, and thats been solved.

If you can't roll all your psychic powers in under 2 minutes you need to work on your stuff.

Here is how my first game at the BAO went:

My opponent showed up 15 minutes late.

I was handed an army list that had the unit names changed out to fluffy names and I had to go over their whole army to find out what everything is.

They were playing CSM/Demon list and they were using all tomb kings units and we had to go over every model to find out what it was.

It was the first time they have played this army. They did not know any of the rules for their units and had to look up all of the rules for their units. Yes I knew all of their rules but that did not change anything (the one thing they did do was put there rules on flash cards, but it was still slow).

So at the start of turn 5 I tell her it’s her turn and someone says that the round is over, I had my whole army (-5 interceptors) and she only had 7 cultists in one squad and 10 in another (ironically her units were 18” away from anything so she had no shooting or assaults possible). I explain to her that we started 15 minutes and all I have to do is move one unit for the win and they should let me do it, but they refused and they said that the round is over.

I got very lucky that it was a tie because I was only on the objectives just by coincidence because I was planning on a 5th turn.

So I did the only thing that I could and gave her a thumbs down on sportsmanship but that still screwed me out of a max point win.

So you are saying 6th is slower because 1 game got slowed down by no factors related to 6th edition at all?


Being late: not related to 6th

Poor army list writing: not related to 6th

Army using Counts As: not related to 6th

Newbie player: not related to 6th

We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

They also don't work as well for 40k as they do other games IMO. It would seriously penelize horde armies.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How many tournaments are using the random terrain?

Rolling on the psychic power charts isn't slow. I play psykers too.

Its no slower than Fantasy, and I can easily finish a 2500 game in 2 hours.



The only real slow thing with 6th was wound allocation, and thats been solved.

If you can't roll all your psychic powers in under 2 minutes you need to work on your stuff.

#1. You are ignoring the whole meta shift to foot armies.
#2. Doing anything between 2 strangers always takes longer than it does between friends. In 5th edition there was one roll for table sides/to go first and that was it. No warlord traits, no psychic power rolls (play a tyranid army and tell me how long that takes). In 6th edition there are not only rolls on tables, but rolls for table sides, then fortification deplyoyments, and then for turn. All of these steps takes time and thought.

Also there are more objective based games and that takes longer. Games are starting much later than they did in 5th edition.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
So you are saying 6th is slower because 1 game got slowed down by no factors related to 6th edition at all?


Being late: not related to 6th

Poor army list writing: not related to 6th

Army using Counts As: not related to 6th

Newbie player: not related to 6th

I was not relpying to you in that post, it was in reply to the OP and the thread in general.

If it was to your points I would have quoted you.

 Reecius wrote:
We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

6th is slower. The sheer volume of usr, charts to roll on in game (csm anyone?) and then keep track of, stacking abilities, the increased number of re rolls, the increase in model count, and the increase in slow moving horde armies all contribute to 6th being a much slower edition.

I don't think clocks are the solution. I think 1500 point level with 2h 15 min rounds and the hard 4 turn minimum are the best solution. I know playing 1500 isn't popular and I actually prefer 1750 but games need to finish. 6th is slower plain and simple, I am a fast, fast player and I admit it. In 5th I could finish 2k games in 1.5 hours easy. Davefay and I finished an 1850 game in 55 minutes before the first round of a tournament once in 5th. No way that happens with 6th.

Geeze, I just really can't wrap my head around you guys seeing 6th be slower. Maybe its just me and my buds being able to play fast. yes, we have a Nid player.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Geeze, I just really can't wrap my head around you guys seeing 6th be slower. Maybe its just me and my buds being able to play fast. yes, we have a Nid player.

Have you played in many tournaments in 6th edition? Playing among friends is much faster.

I have played in 5 GTs so far in 6th edition and many RTTs, and I can tell you that it is much slower.

Also I remembered another thing that slows the game down in 6th edition, in the movement phase you use to be able to move your models around all willy-nilly and it did not matter. Now is is very important where all of your models are placed which slows down the movement phase.

There are just so many rules now that people do not realize just make the game slower. For example:
You get the warlord trait that give you FNP. Those are a lot of rolls that you have to take that you did not get in 5th.
The widespread use of Prescience means many re-rolls.
Even charges take longer now and assaults. You use to be able to just charge 6" and that was it. Now you have to roll for charge range, and then move guys in each inititive step.

There are a lot of small things that make games go longer that people don't even realize.

 Reecius wrote:
We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

Chess Clocks is an interesting idea. Cheapest one I've seen cost between $20 to $22, but they are analog. I personally own a Blue Digital Saitek, which costed me $33. Alternatively, you could purchase cheap stop watches that have timer functions and makes a noticeable "beep" sound, informing the other player that the stop watch was pressed. Of course there might be a slight delay between the player ending their turn (pause timer) and the player starting their turn (resume timer).

I havn't played in any Grand Tournaments but yes I have played in tournaments. I have only experienced issues related to not having a grasp of how to play horde armies, general inexperience, and having edition change hangover. Never have I found a game where it was slower compared to 5th purely because of mechanics.


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 Blackmoor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you are saying 6th is slower because 1 game got slowed down by no factors related to 6th edition at all?


Being late: not related to 6th

Poor army list writing: not related to 6th

Army using Counts As: not related to 6th

Newbie player: not related to 6th

I was not relpying to you in that post, it was in reply to the OP and the thread in general.

If it was to your points I would have quoted you.

Right, never mind then.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I havn't played in any Grand Tournaments but yes I have played in tournaments. I have only experienced issues related to not having a grasp of how to play horde armies, general inexperience, and having edition change hangover. Never have I found a game where it was slower compared to 5th purely because of mechanics.


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 Blackmoor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you are saying 6th is slower because 1 game got slowed down by no factors related to 6th edition at all?


Being late: not related to 6th

Poor army list writing: not related to 6th

Army using Counts As: not related to 6th

Newbie player: not related to 6th

I was not relpying to you in that post, it was in reply to the OP and the thread in general.

If it was to your points I would have quoted you.

Right, nevertheless mind then.

I just don't see how you view 6th as playing at a similar pace to 5th. As Allan has pointed out there are just so many more mechanics in the game in general that it makes for a much slower experience.

The easy answer is to play Kings of War or Warpath. Those games use a chess clock for tournament play, so it is impossible for the other player to stall for time.

Works really well for serious competitive gameplay.

You don't need to buy an actual chess clock if you have a smartphone, there are free android and iOS apps that do the job.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The easy answer is to use a chess clock.

That is hardly easy given the imbalance of time needed based upon army build. Chess clocks work great for chess because the sides in chess are equal and need an equal amount of time to move around. 40k is too complex a game, with too many variations in army build to allow for easy use of chess clocks.

 Reecius wrote:
We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

Chess clock apps for phones

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I havn't played in any Grand Tournaments but yes I have played in tournaments. I have only experienced issues related to not having a grasp of how to play horde armies, general inexperience, and having edition change hangover. Never have I found a game where it was slower compared to 5th purely because of mechanics.


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 Blackmoor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So you are saying 6th is slower because 1 game got slowed down by no factors related to 6th edition at all?


Being late: not related to 6th

Poor army list writing: not related to 6th

Army using Counts As: not related to 6th

Newbie player: not related to 6th

I was not relpying to you in that post, it was in reply to the OP and the thread in general.

If it was to your points I would have quoted you.

Right, nevertheless mind then.

I just don't see how you view 6th as playing at a similar pace to 5th. As Allan has pointed out there are just so many more mechanics in the game in general that it makes for a much slower experience.

There are a few more mechanics yes, but they arn't adding more than 5 minutes to the game time. And combined with casualities being removed quicker from the table you end up with a slightly faster game.

Prior to the wound allocation FAQ the game was slower, but not anymore.


Also, we don't use the random terrain generation. We just plonk stuff down(covering 30-40% of the board)


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 Alfndrate wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

Chess clock apps for phones

Not everyone has a Smart Phone

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
We've been talking about chess clocks, but they're awfully expensive.

Chess clock apps for phones

Not everyone has a Smart Phone

Do you have an iPod Touch? You can get one there, there are plenty of non-smartphone options that will cost about no more than a pair of land raiders that can get you the same thing, the main point is "chess clock app"

Stopwatch?

I have to agree with those who say 6th takes longer, most of which has to do with the shift from Mech to infantry. In 5th I routinely finished 7 turns and finished early, now most of my games finish at the bottom of 5 on time. Just so many things make time take longer.

More Pregame rolling.
More dice rolled due to infantry shooting (in 5th it was a lot of I fire 4 missiles at something, now it is I shoot 20+ shots at a time)
Pile in phase...needing to check engagement at each I step.
Combats last longer with removal of no retreat.
Premeasurement adds time to games (especially when top players face each other, I have seen people measure the same move for a unit multiple times, etc.)

I think that the timing is a larger issue at GTs than it is at smaller events. It takes more time for people to get to tables at GTs when they have to find their paring and wander through a packed hall.

I have considered the chess clock idea but it has some serious issues.

1.) 40k is a game where both players act on both turns (unlike Warmahordes, or Chess) so you would need to stop your clock when your opponent was rolling on your turn. So it is a lot more clock switching. I declare a charge, stop clock, you overwatch, hit wounds, stop clock, I roll saves and remove casualties, roll charge, say I have higer I I pile in, roll hit and wound, stop clock....

2.) Due to the above this is a big adjustment for players who now need to remember to stop the clock all the time. Which can be distracting unless it is practiced (which it is not since no one does it.)

3.) As has been said not all armies need the same amount of time. If I play Draigowing I might only use say 35-40 for my whole game, and my opponent playing orcks might need nearly 2 hours.


I think the solution to slow playing is as follows.

1.)Extend round times/or reduce points: perhaps even have a set up time segment (say 15min for getting to the table setting up, rolling table halfs, psychic powers, warlord, going over armies) Then 2.5 hours for the game itself (for 2k points)

2.) Penalties for both players if they don't make 5 full turns (4 turns is not a full game.), which increase for a player if it happens multiple games. So If in game one both players only get through turn 4 they are docked 5 battle points. If then next round one of those players again only gets in 4 turns, he gets docked 10 battle points, and then 15 if it happens again. Essentially it means a slow player will not be able to consistenly slow play and expect to win an event. IN W/L system, you could give the players a lower ranking win/loss for the first time, and award losses to a player if he is consistently slow.

Chess clocks really don't work, when player turns are dependent on opponent behavior. Acting slow / dumb when it comes to handling saving throws and return attacks in combats and all of that will in theory burn an opponent's time just as readily. You'd have to be smacking the clock after rolling to hit/wound with shooting and cc, and the other person would have to smack it before rolling. I guess that much might be alright / workable, but even arguing about LOS/etc. just to burn someone's timer ... uglee.

The best solution at the large-scale GT level is fewer rounds in a given day (4 is a lot) so players are less fatigued, and more flexibility in terms of what can be done in interim time, plus better layout of missions, floorplans, etc.

Reality is, the game IS slower ... but part of that is people are still getting down the rules, are still figuring out details, the meta is very foot heavy (and this is going to change somewhat to a more balanced level as more and more books release), etc.

There's a big difference, however, between games going to 4-6 turns ... and games going to 2-3 turns. The 2-3 turn games are still quite rare, except in the case of intentional slow play. I would say they are no more common than in 5th. The key is figuring out the sweetspot that will get games to 5 turns regularly, and there's ways to do that BESIDES million-hour rounds or 1500 point games. 1750-1850 is still just fine. 2 hour rounds are a wee bit intense, as is the 2000 point level.

6th edition pregame takes much longer than 5th edition pregame.

But playing 6th edition seems to go faster than 5th edition, once you've got the changes down. My play group each knows their own armies fairly well, which helps, too.

I would have to refuse to play in a tourney with chess clocks for 40k. It is simply unfair and not how the game was designed.

I feel like assault armies are being told not to participate as faster assault armies usually have one really long assault phase which would be on MY time and I would be punished for it.

And shilling for mantic doesn't solve 40k gameplay issues. If they are going to solve the issue by throwing the game out and playing a different game, then they can have fun finding people who play that game. Considering many of these events have hundreds of people playing 40k, changing the ruleset to a new system doesn't solve it for 40k players.

MVBrandt wrote:
Chess clocks really don't work, when player turns are dependent on opponent behavior. Acting slow / dumb when it comes to handling saving throws and return attacks in combats and all of that will in theory burn an opponent's time just as readily. You'd have to be smacking the clock after rolling to hit/wound with shooting and cc, and the other person would have to smack it before rolling. I guess that much might be alright / workable, but even arguing about LOS/etc. just to burn someone's timer ... uglee.

The best solution at the large-scale GT level is fewer rounds in a given day (4 is a lot) so players are less fatigued, and more flexibility in terms of what can be done in interim time, plus better layout of missions, floorplans, etc.

Reality is, the game IS slower ... but part of that is people are still getting down the rules, are still figuring out details, the meta is very foot heavy (and this is going to change somewhat to a more balanced level as more and more books release), etc.

There's a big difference, however, between games going to 4-6 turns ... and games going to 2-3 turns. The 2-3 turn games are still quite rare, except in the case of intentional slow play. I would say they are no more common than in 5th. The key is figuring out the sweetspot that will get games to 5 turns regularly, and there's ways to do that BESIDES million-hour rounds or 1500 point games. 1750-1850 is still just fine. 2 hour rounds are a wee bit intense, as is the 2000 point level.

I agree almost 100%. The only thing I think being missed by a lot of the major TOs, no disrespect meant here, is the idea that 1500 point games are somehow undesirable. Granted I do not want every tournament to adopt 1500 points as the standard level, i enjoy variation in my choices for local RTs and GTs alike, but I think 1500 is better suited to 2 hours than anything above that. 1850 is really best for 2.5 hour rounds and in a GT environment with 5+ rounds that is quite a bit of time considering that even then there will be games not getting past turn 3.

I am really interested to see what you and the other TOs like Reece find as the 6th ed GT scene really kicks into high gear this year.


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nkelsch wrote:
I would have to refuse to play in a tourney with chess clocks for 40k. It is simply unfair and not how the game was designed.

I feel like assault armies are being told not to participate as faster assault armies usually have one really long assault phase which would be on MY time and I would be punished for it.

And shilling for mantic doesn't solve 40k gameplay issues. If they are going to solve the issue by throwing the game out and playing a different game, then they can have fun finding people who play that game. Considering many of these events have hundreds of people playing 40k, changing the ruleset to a new system doesn't solve it for 40k players.

I agree with everything but the assault army statement. I have had the opposite experience in our meta where Assault armies are cleaning up and finishing games because they are breaking the meta ymmv of course!

I don't think I have ever agreed with you this much before...

 Blackmoor wrote:
[list]It was the first time they have played this army. They did not know any of the rules for their units and had to look up all of the rules for their units. Yes I knew all of their rules but that did not change anything (the one thing they did do was put there rules on flash cards, but it was still slow).

This was just a horror story round for you and that sucks. Who goes to a GT with an army they've never played before though? Seems like just a waste of time.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:


I agree with everything but the assault army statement. I have had the opposite experience in our meta where Assault armies are cleaning up and finishing games because they are breaking the meta ymmv of course!

I don't think I have ever agreed with you this much before...

Oh, I have to say I usually don't have a problem finishing games with assault armies... but if they went for 'equal turns' and used clocks to break it down into 15 minute turns, I would think it would be ultimately unfair to assault with 6 units and my turn 'end' with 3 unresolved combats because the assault phase took to long. Basically nullifying the core tactic of my army. Chess clocks can't work unless you say 'max turn time is: x Minutes' and then have rules to handle any unresolved actions. (mostly assault as it is the bottom of the phase)

There is no right answer with chess clocks and so many scenarios on how to implement them which is why I would hate to see them at 40k events. Constantly calling out the time left is enough to keep most honest people on task, and a red whippy stick to the ass from a TO is all needed to address slow-players.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
The "complete 4 turns or loose the game" rule is crazy in my opinion. It lets your opponent slow play until the last second, letting him win on turn 4, before cutting him/her off by time out. It also punishes both players if one of the players is simply very new to the game or both players are playing horde armies.

Both players know the game must reach 4 far in advance. This actually evens the playing field because you know before the event even begins what turn the game must go to which allows you to plan accordingly.

There is a second issue that this rule addresses. People should not be winning tournaments when their games don't get past turn 2 or 3. It is wholly unfair to the rest of the field, not to mention their opponents, when a game does not reach turn 4 or more. It is even more unfair when a player wins a tournament because none of their games get past turn 2 or 3. Relying on the TO to police the slow players and insure they aren't winning the tournament through use of slow play isn't as reliable as the simple turn 4 minimum.

Plus, you know about the rule when you come to one of our events so if you don't think you can play your army in that time design a different one. It really isn't a big deal since we don't spring it on people. If it were a surprise I could see it being a problem, then again anyone miffed about it really should analyze how they are playing the game and whether or not they are slow playing, or planning to play slow.

I'm mad cause you're beating me. Gonna go take a piss.

Oh hey we didn't reach 4, now you lose too.
Not a fan.

 pretre wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
[list]It was the first time they have played this army. They did not know any of the rules for their units and had to look up all of the rules for their units. Yes I knew all of their rules but that did not change anything (the one thing they did do was put there rules on flash cards, but it was still slow).

This was just a horror story round for you and that sucks. Who goes to a GT with an army they've never played before though? Seems like just a waste of time.

There are lots of people who go to tourneys as a way to get organized play with no hopes of winning. Many haven't played much 40k at all. Hell, half my opponents at NOVA last year hadn't even played 6th edition yet. I have met many people who have total conversion armies they never played too.

As someone who is 'not that good' and play Orks, I end up at the mid to low tables sometimes so you get to meet people with similar stories. Usually 'the pack sorts itself out' as the tourney progresses and the rankings happen. The trick is when one of these casual players hits a skilled player on game 1 before rankings fall in to place, and it kinda speedbumps them.

So to them, they don't see it as a waste of time, and hey, with 200+ people playing, hundreds of people have to lose!

The same as any other time someone tries to stall, just call a judge if he magically has to piss right before you hit turn 4 because he's losing.