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2013/03/07 06:03:19
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
Not sure if this is best here, or possibly in one of the forums at the bottom of the page...though it sprung up from a tangent on the GW v. CHS thread and really goes outside the scope there. Feel free to bump it to a different forum if you feel the need...
To get everyone caught up on things:
Spoiler:
The Deposition of the good Prof. Grindley wrote:Q. So if the person who came up with the
6 description flamer for Games Workshop testifies
7 that they have never read Starship Troopers --
8 A. All right.
9 Q. -- you would believe that would be
10 absurd?
11 A. I would believe that would not only be
12 absurd but probably a lie. I don't believe that
13 there would be anyone working in anything to do
14 with science fiction who has not, either as a
15 child or young adult or as an adult, not read this
16 novel.
17 Q. So if there were multiple people from
18 Games Workshop saying they have never read
19 Starship Troopers, you would call them all liars?
20 MR. COOPER: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No, I would not call
22 someone a liar.
23 BY MR. KEENER:
24 Q. You would believe they are lying?
There was a hand flamer called a hand flamer in Laserburn, published by Bryan Ansell in about 1980. We don't know if he got the idea from Starship Troopers or invented it from fresh.
Naturally not everyone has read Starship Troopers, however it is difficult to believe that no-one ever employed in or by the 40K design studio from 1985 to 1990, while the look of Space Marines was formulated, had ever seen Star Wars or Aliens or read Starship Troopers or similar military SF books (Forever War pub.1974, etc.) It would beggar belief that a bunch of young men interested in SF and wargames would be completely unaware of those publications.
We don't really need to speculate on that though...
When I discovered fantasy, science and historical fiction in the 1960s Moorcock wasn't visible enough yet to make it into my local (Arnold) library. I was enthusiastic about Jack Vance, Clark Ashton Smith , Harry Harrison, Fritz Leiber, Keith Laumer, James Blish , Robert Sheckley, Brian Aldis , Edgar Rice Burroughs , Kurt Vonnegut, Robert Heinlein ,TH White, Cyril Judd, Fritz Leiber, Philip K Dick and others . Also Russell Thorndike, Rafael Sabatini, Hubert Cole, Alfred Duggan, Mary Renault, Henry Treece, Geoffrey Trease and Leslie Charteris.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book. I don't have access to my copies of Laserburn right now, but it used to actually be common practice for games developers to thank their various sources of inspiration in the front/back of their rules. He might have even referenced Starship Troopers there as well.
It is rather interesting that the guy who was pushing the creative side of things when 40K was being set down on paper (and lead) had no problem talking about the books and other artists he looked to for inspiration, while the guy who is the art director for GW references the weather and shopping centers.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book.
I don't want to derail this train; however, there is an entire population of readers that would disagree with you. His flagship book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Starship Troopers, although great, isn't as well known.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book.
I don't want to derail this train; however, there is an entire population of readers that would disagree with you. His flagship book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Starship Troopers, although great, isn't as well known.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
I'm assuming you've never read it; otherwise you'd understand that Stranger would never translate well into a movie. Of course, to compare to that number 200 in the queue at your library, in 2012 the Library of Congress named Stranger in a Strange land one of the 88 "Books that Shaped America". So... yeah, I'd say it's a bit more of Heinleins flagship that ST.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
I'm assuming you've never read it; otherwise you'd understand that Stranger would never translate well into a movie. Of course, to compare to that number 200 in the queue at your library, in 2012 the Library of Congress named Stranger in a Strange land one of the 88 "Books that Shaped America". So... yeah, I'd say it's a bit more of Heinleins flagship that ST.
See the tiny flag next to my avatar? That's the Swedish flag, i.e Not united states -- not even the same continent -- And i've read _everything_ by Heinlein, although I did read SiaSL around.. 20 years ago.
But my reading habits are severely OT.
So back on track, Starship Troopers was made into a franchise, it was loosely based on the book.
The franchise includes:
4 Movies
2 Games
1 TV Series
and a few other spinoffs.
All of these are sure to have sparked more than a passing interest in the book over the years.
this link is of interest as well.
All of these are sure to have sparked more than a passing interest in the book over the years.
this link is of interest as well.
I understand; it just isn't enough. Add "stranger in a strange land" to the list of search terms; same time period. SiaSL had no movie, no games, no tv series and it still eclipses the searches for ST. So, I'm not entirely certain what it is your trying to show...
xcasex wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at either, But to answer you question, as far as popculture adoption and dissemination thereof, Starship Troopers holds a great deal of mindshare in mainstream culture.
as per this Trends query, i'm still a bit flabberghasted by your claim.
So it sort of goes to two parts, what did GW gank from SST, and is SST the most significant work of Heinlein, i.e. - his flagship work.
First second, and second first I guess.
As xcasex mentions, SST has had much more impact in pop culture than Stranger in a Strange Land. It has also influenced the way which war planners look to build military forces and remains required reading in several military academies and war colleges. Beyond that it further influenced dozens of other books which were contemporary to it and went on to be the source of inspiration for hundreds of books, movies, video games and other forms of media that have followed since.
SST also is at the top of best seller lists for various booksellers:
While Stranger in a Strange Land is a good book - if you were to ask people off the street what they had read, you will likely find more people who have read SST. If you just ask what they had heard of, it would be hands down SST, as all the unwashed masses of illiterate pleebs will have seen SST (if for nothing else than the shower scene) while the concepts which are presented in SiaSL would be beyond them.
Moving on to how it has impacted science fiction, you have of course the most obvious which would be the power armor suit itself. From the general strength enhancing, life support providing, medication/drug injecting features which he outlines - you can draw a very direct line to almost every military related science fiction game, movie or book in the last 30-40 years. Sort of like playing 6 degrees of seperation...just with Heinlein as opposed to Kevin Bacon.
However, he also introduced concepts like the orbital insertion for those infantry. The idea was barely concievable at the time for civilian applications - the first human space flight happened in 1961...while he was writing of reentry capsules for use in military insertion applications 2 years earlier. In many ways, he also created the concept of the boarding torpedo at the same time. The reentry capsules were fired out of a twin barreled gun on their spaceship.
The power armor which he laid out, was quite literally jump infantry as well. Not like we have now, but capable of making huge jet assisted leaps through the air (another idea which GW comandeered).
Of course, you have the flamer which was discussed by the Professor. Although he didn't actually develop the concept of a flame thrower (they predate him by well over 1000 years) he did use the term first. He also streamlined the concept into something which would be more useful for general military operations as opposed to the specialized tool that it was during WWI and WWII.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/07 06:07:43
2013/03/07 06:25:31
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
When I started collecting 40k I thought that the vents on the Space Marine backpacks were jump jets because the over all design of the figure resembled what I had in mind from RHH's book. I found out later that the backpack was the power source for the suit and the jump-pack was an additional bit.
It would serve reason that a true representation of RHH's MI Apesuits would likely look more like Elemental Clan armor from Battletech in which the weapon systems are integrated as opposed to being carried by the trooper. As such the GW models are a poor representation of this, a better representation are the oop Grizzly and Cougar powered armor suits from Mongoose's former SST miniatures..
The idea of wearable tank with the firepower of an infantry platoon is so powerful that a tabletop version should in fact be able to steamroll a more conventionally armed force. One or two figures tops.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
xraytango wrote: When I started collecting 40k I thought that the vents on the Space Marine backpacks were jump jets because the over all design of the figure resembled what I had in mind from RHH's book. I found out later that the backpack was the power source for the suit and the jump-pack was an additional bit.
Funny you should say that. Originally - those vents were for flying. You can see it illustrated in Rogue Trader era books and catalogs. Later on they developed a different jetpack for them to use instead and made the regular backpack just a powerpack with cooling vents.
As far as GW goes, the regular PA guys would be closer to Scouts in SST while terminators would probably fit in better with the regular SST suits. IIRC, in the Laserburn rules (which introduced Dreadnought Armor) they made a similiar comparison as well...though my memory is a bit foggy on that as a lot was hinted at through poorly drawn figures. If you look at the Asgard miniature line which was produced to support Laserburn (still available through Alternative Armies) you see a similiar set of stages between the lighter armor that carries weapons and heavier armor that has weapons mounted to it.
2013/03/07 07:36:56
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
Wasn't Stranger in a Strange Land banned in parts of the US when it was released?
I think for the purposes of this forum, undoubtedly SST has had much more of an influence - that book, along with Dune, where at the forefront of Rick Priestley and the gangs mind when they wrote the first 40k book and you would have to say one of the biggest influences.
But, in terms of wider culture, I think Stranger in a Strange land has had far more influence. I mean, there was a church formed on the basis of the book with millions of members at one point! Not sure if it is still going these days (or whether it was just fashionable for a time), but it definitely struck a chord with the hippy counter-culture at the time, at least from what I have read.
Stranger in a Strange Land is a very influential book in the development of SF, however when looking at WH40K we are interested in military SF. Starship Troopers is undoubtedly one of the most widely read and influential books in that genre.
Certainly Starship Troopers would have had a much greater impact on WH40k (and other military sci-fi) than any of his other books, although I would argue that the (terrible) movies are sufficiently different from the book as to be completely worthless. However books such as Stranger in a Strange Land have had more impact on sci-fi in general.
2013/03/07 10:58:45
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
The film would make people aware of the novel, so some new people will have gone and read it afterwards.
Looking at the GW versus CH case, the film would probably be considered a late, unoriginal example of the "future soldier" trope that informs IG and SM. The troops in the film are very similar to the troops in Aliens.
I think Starship Troopers marks the change in Heinlein's novels to longer more adult works. Before this they were mostly shorter books suitable for younger readers, after Starship Troopers his books are distinctly more adult in many ways. It's very important as a piece in defining the military SF genre and as a novel in itself won the Hugo award.
I don't think you can argue which of Starship Troopers or Stranger is the more important or influential, they are both big contributions to SF. I'd agree with the assessment in the other thread that anyone working in SF particularly in the 80s would have read it, or at the very least be familiar with its content.
2013/03/07 12:34:12
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
Sean_OBrien wrote: Funny you should say that. Originally - those vents were for flying. You can see it illustrated in Rogue Trader era books and catalogs. Later on they developed a different jetpack for them to use instead and made the regular backpack just a powerpack with cooling vents.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The first marines came with rules treating their backpacks as jump packs, at least that's what I recall from the back of the first plastic marine box.
Absolutely bloody wow. Before I called Bullgak on these two statements I decided to go away and do my research properly. I rarely get caught on on RT-era stuff... But this time...
Although there are zero pictures of the power packs being used as jet packs in the Rogue Trader rulebook, and there is, in fact, a picture of what would now be considered a heresy-era jump pack on page 104, on page 115 there is a diagram of Astartes armour that shows the pack as having stabilising jets. The pack as a whole is not labelled as a jet/jump pack, and in fact has air purifiers, solar panels, soolar convertor, reserve air, etc, taking up most of the space, there is this implication that it can act in at least a small way as a jump pack. My suggestion would be that the designer/author's intention would be as a slight aid to a natural jump rather than a full on jump or jet system, or to stabilise someone who is falling from a great height, but I had never spptted it before.
I also had the RTB01 box, but had never spotted that on the back, the power pack is, in fact, labelled as a jet pack: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rtb01marines.htm Whilst I consider that as probably an error made by a graphic designer of the packaging rather than a member of the actual design team, there is a significant chance I am wrong.
Now, in support of the idea that the power pack was originally excatly that, not a jump pack, are the original Bob Naismith GW marines, (one of which I own) which have the nozzle at an angle suggesting it could never possibly be a jet/jump pack. http://www.nightsoil.co.uk/zhu/miniatures/warhammer-40k.htm
I've been through quite a few old GW's from 90 onwards, and can find no images showing regular power packs acting as jet packs, but I'd actually love to be shown one.
So, much to my surprise, I find there is something of a case that at least some people working on the game saw the power pack as at least partially capable of acting as a jump/jet pack.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
I have the same model and one or two others from that series.
At the time of release I assumed the backpack was a jump jet because it looks like one. The nozzles don't seem to make engineering sense otherwise. You've got main lift nozzles on both sides and the swivelling bits above the shoulders are flexible steering jets.
Alternatively it might be a kind of two person hairdrier or a small internal combustion engine with the exhaust pipes at the top. Neither of those alternatives seemed likely to me given the base concept of a future war powered armour.
I presume when originally designed there was an idea that the backpack would be a jump jet unit, or perhaps a space manoeuvring unit. This concept probably got dropped before the game was released.
If you look at Bob's sketch in the Evolution of a Space Marine article, the nozzles are actually called out as being able to be adjusted to any angle.
There is also one picture which I recall that shows Space marines flying through the air, Buck Rodger's style using only the standard backpack (actual flight too...). I think that was in one of the Space Marine or Titan rulebooks.
2013/03/07 13:17:53
Subject: Re:Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
The thing is it doesn't really matter what the truth is.
The fact that none of us know for sure that it is or is not a jet pack, but many of us think it is one way or the other, demonstrates that we have taken various influences from fiction and real life and come to conclusions which are not necessarily based on the developer's official explanation.
Feeding into the interpretation is the history of power armoured jet packs in Starship Troopers and other fiction.
ALTHOUGH - that image from the Ultramarines dropship has actualy been cropped, thereby not showing marines with clearly larger than powerpack sized jump packs from a side angle, so that image is effectively a fake. I am struggling to find the original again on Google though...
Speaking as someone who received a degree in literature and education, I can make the following observation about the two novels mentioned in the OP.
While SST is undoubtably the more popular novel based upon total sales and name recognition, SiaSL is considered to be the more serious literary work by academics. I have seen multiple occassions where SiaSL was on the reading lists for both college and high school courses, but have never seen SST mentioned in either location. Additionally, the subject matter for SiaSL is far more weighty than that of SST. While SST does ask an important question about patriotism and self sacrifice, SiaSL questions some of our very basic cultural assumptions about what is right, including religion, social mores, sexual mores, death rituals, and importance of wealth.
So, in my opinion, while SST is a far more influential work when it comes to the average Sci-Fi fan and/or the development of games like 40K, SiaSL is more influential from a serious literary standpoint. Heck; just last year, the US Library of Congress named SiaSL one of 88 books that shaped America. Here's the total list:
Found a fuller version of the pic. I would argue that the oen who is sideways shows that those guys have much fuller jump packs.
Still, as I said, I have been shown to be wrong in my assertion that this was bullgak. I don't think all members of the design team saw them as jet packs, but some almost certainly did, even if not for very far into the development of marines.
The comment regarding Bob Naismith's design sketches also seems valid, as the nozzles moving round would make sense too.
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
SiaSL is definately the more significant work from a philosophical standpoint (and I would say better written). However those issues really sort of pale when you look at the greater issues.
You see similiar issues with other authors. Many scholars view Hamlet as Shakespeare's most significant play. However, the unwashed masses would say Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet is the play that everyone knows, and can (mis)quote quite readily.
Scholars and the well read are often at odds with the regular folk in regards to what they think is important. Just look at things like the Academy Awards compared to the actual box office numbers and see what the people want versus the elite.
2013/03/07 19:22:46
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
SST obviously influenced the power armour of the marines but beyond that...the Astartes are little more than King Arthurs Round table in Space
GW seems to have its original heart more firmly embedded in the new wave, dystopian SF of the 60's. Look at the amount of ideas "lifted" from Michael Moorcock for instance..
There is little of Heinlein's obey your father and the state ideal in the 40k universe.
For me SiaSL is the far better novel as is the whimsy of Glory Road
2013/03/07 19:51:11
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/03/07 20:27:04
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
I'm not as convinced about SST's influence in the general sci-fi realm outside of military sci-fi and wargaming. There are so many other notable books and series (foundation, Stranger in a Strange..., etc ,etc...) that make up the cannon of great sci-fi books.
However in relation to sci-fi gaming and 40k it's long been established accepted that SST is responsible for much of what we now see as power armor in various games, most notably 40k.
I was pleased to see mentions of Dune (especially the 2nd and third books which pretty much are the emperor prototype.) and 2000AD. I'm not as familar with 2000AD, but the style of art is rampant thoughout 40k design and artwork, including many blatant ripoffs like Judge Dredd/Adeptus Arbites.
Put another way, If you take a stick of Warhammer (75% tolkein, 25% British wit) add two tablespoons of Starship troopers, a half cup of Dune, cut it out in the shapes of 2000AD and bake until golden, the result is Rogue Trader cookies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/07 20:28:48
Don't forget most of the 40k Imperium is pretty much lifted whole-cloth from Foundation.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2013/03/07 20:53:58
Subject: Significance of Starship Troopers versus other Heinlein novels in relation to sci-fi
wilycoyote wrote: SST obviously influenced the power armour of the marines but beyond that...the Astartes are little more than King Arthurs Round table in Space
GW seems to have its original heart more firmly embedded in the new wave, dystopian SF of the 60's. Look at the amount of ideas "lifted" from Michael Moorcock for instance..
There is little of Heinlein's obey your father and the state ideal in the 40k universe.
For me SiaSL is the far better novel as is the whimsy of Glory Road
Regarding your first point, its important to realise the conception of marines changed a lot towards the end of 1st edition, towards the 'Knights in Space' conception you speak of. Before that, Marines were very heavily influenced by the 'Sardakur' from the book Dune - essentially survivors taken from the deadliest worlds, often the most ruthless killers (that bit still applies in some cases) - these were then 'chemically hardened' (before the concepts surrounding genetic engineering had really entered the public consciousness), given armour and a gun, and thrown at the enemy. But, there wasn't anything particularly noble about them (other than their bonds of brotherhood) - in some ways these standard marines have now become the chaos marines in modern 40k, even though really they were the original conception of the idea within 40k.
This is why you have a little bit of discord these days between some of the chapter names (Flesh Tearers, Space Wolves etc.) and the image of a knight, speaking with a He-Man style echo in his nicely enunciated voice, saying "I smite thee, heathen".
It's also interesting to note how the artwork has changed - the first edition rulebook is full of marines being blown up, cut to pieces, gunned down. These days you would struggle to find a picture of such a thing in any of the current books, or even one of a wounded marine for that matter. The was much less 'black and white', in terms of good guys and bad guys, the game wasn't aimed at kids (which immediately made it much more attractive to them ) and really the concept of the marine was much more ambiguous than it is often portrayed as today.
I guess ultimately it's a subjective thing concerning which conception of the 'marine' you prefer, although it's interesting to note how it has changed over the years.
Yes that's right - just like the Sardakur (and the Freemen for that matter) in Dune. Not all of them though, the defining factor was that they had come from the deadliest of worlds , where only the absolute strongest would survive, and would by extension produce the strongest of warriors.
Actually the seminal book 'Space Marine' has one of the main characters come from this kind of environment, and there are bits of it that still exist in the background to this day (the Night Lords etc.) Of course, one can't help but feel that this would be exactly the kind of thing the commanders of the future would look for, and that cut-throats from the streets of Nostromo, for whom every day is a fight for survival, would make better fighters than some farmers son from Ultramar
Pacific wrote: Yes that's right - just like the Sardakur (and the Freemen for that matter) in Dune. Not all of them though, the defining factor was that they had come from the deadliest of worlds , where only the absolute strongest would survive, and would by extension produce the strongest of warriors.
Minor point:
The Sardukar were not necessarily "criminals". They were recruited from the population of penal colonies, but the make-up of said colonies involved political enemies as well as actual criminals.
Fremen were the descendants of escaped slaves, who in turn were the descendants of individuals who refused to fight during the whole Butlerian Jihad and the uprising of the Titans.
) and really the concept of the marine was much more ambiguous than it is often portrayed as today.
