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You know, after reading a lot of Dredd, I think I can see where the idea of hive cities came from. I'd not call it a copy pasta before anyone shouts that!

Giant megacities or arcologies existed in SF before Judge Dredd and the concept is derived from actual architectural theory.

The point is, though, that very many of GW's elements in 40K are not only obviously drawn from specific sources like Starship Troopers and Judge Dredd, they are often such widely used ideas in the genres that it is barely possible to identify a specific originating source at all, especially when you are looking at a group of creative people who went about their jobs without the rigour of an academic search of the literature and citation of their references.

Personally I am surprised that the judge considered the large size of the shoulder pad an original feature worthy of copyright.



However there is still the argument to come from the copyright office.

 BrookM wrote:
Guess I belong to the "unwashed masses" as I have read neither. OP, you come across as a bit of a snob.

I do at times, though mostly it was sarcasm.


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Yep, if you look back at engineering and technology magazines from the 1930s and on you would see some sort of megacity design pop up every year or two. I would need to double check, but I seem to recall one designed by Frank Lloyd Wright as well.

The Space Marines have all sorts of specific sources for their organization as well. You have several examples of a chosen 1000 which are augmented in order to stand against a civilization's enemies. Off the top of my head you have the Space Knights from Space Knight Rom. I know I have a few more, but their specifics slip my mind.




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 Kilkrazy wrote:


Personally I am surprised that the judge considered the large size of the shoulder pad an original feature worthy of copyright.

However there is still the argument to come from the copyright office.

I would need to double check what was offerred as evidence at the time, but the court only has to take into account what is entered into evidence.

It is possible that W&S thought Dredd would be common knowledge, but without specifically pointing it out, he didnt nescessarily consider it. I believe it made it into the report this time around though...which might mean that it also gets into the reconsideration of the shoulderpads.

BrookM wrote:Guess I belong to the "unwashed masses" as I have read neither. OP, you come across as a bit of a snob.

BrookM wrote:Sorry, I'm one of those unwashed, Dune is not something I'm all too familiar with.

How have you not read SST or Dune?

 Amaya wrote:

BrookM wrote:Guess I belong to the "unwashed masses" as I have read neither. OP, you come across as a bit of a snob.

BrookM wrote:Sorry, I'm one of those unwashed, Dune is not something I'm all too familiar with.

How have you not read SST or Dune?

I'm fairly well into sci fi, but I haven't read Dune or SST either. It's not like this is school with required reading.

They're just two of the most influential sci fi works ever written...

I would assume people that like a given thing, especially those into speculative fiction, would pursue and read such novels or at the very least be aware of them or read a summary.

*looks at amount of posters who have not read SST*

*froths angrily at mouth*

GO READ IT NOW!!!!!!

Starship Troopers certainly isn't to everyone's taste, it frequently reads like a lecture/essay from Heinlein where you the line between his politics and him being a devil's advocate isn't so clear, though it doesn't stop people using it to label Heinlein one way or the other. People who have seen the film are likely to be surprised how little the bugs are in it and how different it is overall.

I've heard that's the case, which makes the movie all the more hilarious, as it's more of a parody of the book and its preaching about the perfect political system rather than a proper movie of it.

I have seen the old anime OVA's of Starship Troopers, though I think that might still not be enough to appease the snobs.

I want to read a story, not have the author tell me how he envisions the perfect society to be.

But feth it, there are books for every genre out there THAT YOU MUST READ OR YOU DO NOT BELONG IN OUR LITTLE CIRCLE JERK. When I showed interest in Cyberpunk I was told I HAD to read Neuromancer, because otherwise I wouldn't "get" it or get in the group, because.. What the hell.

Probably because without Neuromancer, this is no Cyberpunk. It started the genre, and is still pretty much the perfect example. I've read a lot of cyberpunk, and nobody's done it as well as Gibson's Mona Lisa Overdrive trilogy. Without it, there's no Cyberpunk 2020, there's no Shadowrun, there's no Deus Ex. The main characters in all those games are pretty much lifted straight from Neuromancer. So yeah, go read that.

I read it, chill Adolph, I found it a tad boring though. I liked Snowcrash and Ready Player One a whole lot better. But the GM did not entirely approve of those, the snob..

Looking at J.D's Shoulder pads i am surprised that they haven't sued yet

Mega cities, asimov? empires? Larry Niven, Jack Vance, Chaos? Michael Moorcock etcetera, Inquisition? Monty python!

Not read Dune? Heresy! :p

You should try Dune and Starship Troopers.

If you don't like them it will be a pity but they are worth a try being what you might call seminal works in SF.

Pacific is right, the main influence on the early concept of the Space Marine are the ‘Sadukar’ from Dune, mixed in with Judge Dredd.

The Space Marines were originally conceived as the ‘big bad’ of the Rogue Trader universe. It’s important to understand the original concept of Warhammer 40k was ‘Rogue Trader’, a semi-roleplaying skirmish game. In this game, players would be using a small group of models based around their Rogue Trader character and his/her associates, which would battle elements of the 40kk universe. The army, the judges, aliens, wierd monsters from the bestiary, and other rogue traders. The Space Marines were the elite forces the players warband might have to overcome at the culmination of a campaign or story (kind of like Storm Troopers in Star Wars). This is why the rulebook is full of space marines being shot up, and the original chapters had such goofy bad-guy sounding names (Blood Angels, Flesh Eaters, Ultramarines Lionel Johnson, founder of the Dark Angels etc).

Physically the design is based on the chaos warrior. Chaos warriors were GW’s best-selling miniature line, so the design directive was ‘make them like chaos warriors’. Someone along the line added the womble head, can’t remember who.

Oh I'm not averse to reading them - I just find that if I read books that get recommended too much, I don't enjoy them enough. Hype, expectations, etc. I'll get to them when I feel like it.

Not having read Dune or SST doesn't mean I don't 'get' sci fi - that's just being ridiculous. I might not understand some references, which I'm cool with.

 BrookM wrote:
I've heard that's the case, which makes the movie all the more hilarious, as it's more of a parody of the book and its preaching about the perfect political system rather than a proper movie of it.

The book states pretty clearly it's not a perfect system; it's just a system.

The movie being a parody is true; the script was adapted from one originally written called 'Bug Hunt' and they threw in some SST references, and the director (Verhoeven) started reading the book but didn't like it so decided he wanted to make a sci fi WW2 movie in space.

You should definitely read it. It's short and it'll only take a few hours and is a fantastic read. (there IS a reason why it is an award winning novel)

IMHO it's in the "big three" of Heinlein: Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land. All three are absolutely fantastic.

 -Loki- wrote:
Oh I'm not averse to reading them - I just find that if I read books that get recommended too much, I don't enjoy them enough. Hype, expectations, etc. I'll get to them when I feel like it.

Not having read Dune or SST doesn't mean I don't 'get' sci fi - that's just being ridiculous. I might not understand some references, which I'm cool with.

Yes, but they are good books though, especially Dune which is well regarded even amongst the kind of literary circles who traditionally shun science fiction.. SST for its philosophical musings as much as the kick-ass fighting suits, and Dune is just so.. well, epic, in the original sense of the term. You will read it and think how bonkers David Lynch was to try and make a movie of it...

Also, you can realise how much of 40k (definitely Rogue Trader, but even to an extent the current universe) borrowed from the book. Practically everything

 Pacific wrote:
Yes, but they are good books though, especially Dune which is well regarded even amongst the kind of literary circles who traditionally shun science fiction.. SST for its philosophical musings as much as the kick-ass fighting suits, and Dune is just so.. well, epic, in the original sense of the term. You will read it and think how bonkers David Lynch was to try and make a movie of it...

Also, you can realise how much of 40k (definitely Rogue Trader, but even to an extent the current universe) borrowed from the book. Practically everything

Agreed.

I think everyone can agree that you can enjoy 40k and (military sci-fi in general) without reading Dune and SST. No doubt some folks will not even enjoy those books. Also, we all share a certain disdain for those who look down on others who haven't read them.

However, that doesn't change the fact that to understand the roots of 40k and much of what sci-fi has come afterwards (if that's important to you) you have to read them. In a very real sense, they make up the "reading list" for seeing the roots of many of the ideas that make up 40k.

It's the same with sci-fi in general, there's a sort of flexible "cannon" of classic sci-fi works. The more you read of it, the more you understand what comes later. Of course you don't have to read it, but to deny the perspective and knowledge of the genre gained by doing so is nonsensical.

GW needs to start suing the makers of Starship Troopers and Dredd.

I have read SST, but couldn't get into Dune. Its so horribly dry, it makes a pun of itself. I also couldn't finish LoTR, either, due to the fact that Tolkein couldn't write about a white wall without a three chapter description entailing every last detail of said wall's 30,000 year history and if it was any other color and why it was that color, who had painted it, and if their 6th cousin's daughter's boyfriend had acne.... that might be hyperbole.

Foundation, Dune, Starship Troopers, the Forever War, Bill - the Galactic Hero, Judge Dredd, the Eternal Champion...

They all inspired the setting of Warhammer 40,000, just as they have all inspired and continue to inspire authors down the generations. To say that GW "ripped off", "stole" or "copied" any of them is ridiculous. I write short science fiction professionally, but I've never read SST and don't especially feel I've missed anything. I expect I'll pick it up eventually, but I can't say that I consider it seminal to my understanding of science fiction.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that many authors who have had an effect on my writing and imagination have read SST, so indirectly it seems highly likely that Heinlein has had an effect upon my relationship with SF, whether I read him or not.

If I include power armoured troopers in an SF story, I'm not "copying" Heinlein; I'm tapping into a logical progression that can be traced through history in which arms and armour are locked in a permanent cycle - the original arms race.

I often see SST and Ender's Game cited as being on the "required reading list" for military academies, btw. I can't speak for the US, but I'd be surprised if more than one in ten of entrants at the UK's military academies of Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Lympstone and Cranwell have read either and, if they have, that they see any relevance to their careers.

R.

The rip-off is from the common weal.

GW ripped off the settings when they claimed that the inspiration they took from common genre tropes was theirs and theirs alone.

It is absolutely fine to take inspiration from previous sources, That is how knowledge and art progresses. But GW have tried to sequester those sources to themselves.

Oh, absolutely. In the context of the CHS/GW thread, I totally agree with you, Kk. But in the context of *this* thread and whether GW "ripped off" Heinlein, no, they didn't. But they were inspired by the full gamut of 50s-70s SF/fantasy to create something new, exciting and living that continues to create new and imaginative stories on tabletops around the world.

R.

Much of the social setup of Dune is based on feudal Arabic and Ottoman sources.

Well, I'm sure there are much more comprehensive lists somewhere comparing the similarities between 40k and Dune, but off the top of my head
- aforementioned Sardakur/Freemen were the inspiration for how marines are brought into existence, and with the former in particular they had the same mode of operation as the early marines in RT (and some chapters still do in the current fluff)
- Lasguns!
- navigator guilds, sub-human species who were able to chart the spaces between stars thanks to the spice - gradually becoming less part of the human race as time went on.
- The Butlerian Jihad in Dune (an ancient war between humans and AI), leading to the banning of all forms of AI, and humans then taking that role (who were often augmented) - I can't remember their name, but there were those who had replaced almost all of their bodies with machine parts.

I'm sure there are others! Actually, thinking about the book makes me really want to read it again (the first trilogy at least)

Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.

Or is that book too lowbrow for this thread

Hitchhiker's came late enough that it's drawing from and parodying the same sources as 40k.

silent25 wrote:
Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.

Or is that book too lowbrow for this thread

Afraid not, though certain aspects may be woven into the 40k emperor. No doubt some of the 40k writers had read Hitchikers.

Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune". Emperor becoming less and less human, ruling over a universe that has come to worship him as a God, etc, etc.

If I may re-share my initial recipe

-A stick of Warhammer (75% tolkein, 25% British wit)
-Add two tablespoons of Starship troopers
-Stir in a half cup of Dune,
-Cut it out in the shapes of 2000AD and bake until golden,

Voila! Rogue Trader cookies.

Seems I'm with many others here, there's little Heinlein in 40k beyond power armor. Frank Herbert and Gene Wolfe being its most obvious sources of inspiration.

Other than that, I can't understand the interest in dissing 40k for being a derivative setting. I can't think of anything more derivative than Star Wars, which is essentially Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" with a 1930s pulp sci-fi treatment , and while Lucas has had a more or less lenient attitude to IP matters, if you dare cross the line you'll eventualy find the lawyers knocking at your door.

GW's defense of their IP is fierce to the point of absurdity. I'd certainly like it better if they relaxed a wee bit, but I think pointing out that certain ideas have been used before in some other media is NOT the way to go to achieve it. IP law just doesn't work that way.


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Eilif wrote:
Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune".

Also Severian from the avobe-mentioned "Book of The New Sun" tetralogy, by Gene Wolfe

It really isnt dissing 40K for being derivative...anyone with a lick of sense understands that most fiction is derivative, but when a company like GW sues another company (or attempts to block the sale of products) then it becomes more important to point out the things that came before hand that GW has taken from.

You will often hear people saying that GW should sue Bungie for HALO and the like as well...so it is plenty apparent that people really dont understand that there isnt much unique to the 40K setting either.