Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So some of you may of saw my post in the WHFB forum about balance between WFB vs. 40k. Lol the first response to my question was basically if you want balance don't play a GW game. So here's my question to you all, coming from someone who only has a passing knowledge of Warmachine / Hordes, do you think your games are fairly balanced between the armies? That is can any army take on any other army? Or are there clearly some that just dominate play?

Cryx and Legion tend to do better than most, but mainly due to more forgiving play styles plus some slightly under priced stuff. But bad match ups aren't army to army but more warcaster to warcaster. You'll find some warcasters just don't match up against others but generally the factions themselves are balanced. Even the supposedly worst army which is Cygnar still regularly wins tournaments.

Cygnar isn't even the supposedly-worst army, not by a long shot. I think that title falls to the factions that aren't properly factions--Minions mainly, since Mercenaries have more options.

But yeah, each faction has so much stuff going on it seems to work out pretty well. Player skill matters a lot more than building THE BESTEST LIST, and if there is actual faction misbalance, it's a percentage difference that resembles the slight bias that comes from white going first in chess.

In tournament play, I think the two-list system helps a lot. Some warcasters have a lot of trouble dealing with certain tactics... so if you find someone with that tactic, you just switch to your second list. Also makes things more fun for opponents, since it gives them more variety in what kinds of lists they face.

Warmahordes is 90% about skill. Some armies are slightly better than others and the game does have some Rock-Paper-Scissors in it, but then it is designed to be played competitively often with double list formats.

Fantasy is IMO 60% about player skill, so the book is important, but not the deciding factor.

40k is around 40% player skill, the rest is list building. Skill is tied to the specific list as well.

Compared to the issues your used to in fantasy/40k the balance issues are microscopic. Imbalances tend not to be army-wide but more on certain selections that are easier to get dramatic results from.

The power gaps between factions are 10-15% at most and even the weakest faction can be threatening to the strongest. There can be list matchup issues, but competitive play is a two-list format so players can avoid those if they put some forethought in.

Cryx and Legion both have nasty reputations, but cryx has taken a step back in competitive play for 2013 and Legion only has one predictable advantage. Honestly, if there isn't something worth your opponents gritting their teeth over in a faction, there is a good chance that faction is underpowered.

Take a look at the quickstart rules for both games here. They include rules for almost everything except units and terrain.
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/the-game
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/the-game

Thank you guys.. yeah after a terrible day of 40k I'm really thinking about either selling them off or seeing if I can get an army swap for WarmaHordes. The balance in 40k is just sooo bad. I mean there are literally players in 40k that I love as people but I refuse to play them as I know my army has almost no chance of beating theirs.

I'm not a 40k fan, but don't sell your army just yet. Make sure warmachine/hordes is the right game for you first. demo the game a few times with different factions and get a better feel for it before you make such a big decision.

For the time being we can help answer questions you may have about particular factions or warcasters.

 Dais wrote:
I'm not a 40k fan, but don't sell your army just yet. Make sure warmachine/hordes is the right game for you first. demo the game a few times with different factions and get a better feel for it before you make such a big decision.

For the time being we can help answer questions you may have about particular factions or warcasters.

Aye, I've priced out my army, but haven't sold them off yet. I have quite a few friends that have been trying to get me to switch over, and I've watched them play a few games, so maybe I'll have them run me through a few. I do know enough to know that I prefer Fury over Focus, although I think Focus is an easier concept to wrap your mind around.. it seems a little more limiting to me. Either way I want to thank everyone for their help so far. One thing I do like about this game so far is it seems even within a given faction there's a lot of versatility. Looking at Everblight there's a fair amount of shooty warlocks but there's also some great melee ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, not to hijack my own thread (maybe I should make a new one?) but as it turns out after posting to my gaming stores facebook group everyone else has been thinking about the same thing I have! Giving 40k a rest and getting into more WarmaHordes, only problem is seems everyone wants to play Everblight. Now I actually have a Trollbloods starter I bought quite some time ago, so thinking of giving them a try out. After doing some research turns out you can actually make a pretty shooty list with Trollbloods using Captain Gunnbjorn, which I was pretty psyched to see. Anyone else got suggestions on cool Trollblood builds? I do love their models, especially the Fennblades.

cretinator wrote:

 Dais wrote:
I'm not a 40k fan, but don't sell your army just yet. Make sure warmachine/hordes is the right game for you first. demo the game a few times with different factions and get a better feel for it before you make such a big decision.

For the time being we can help answer questions you may have about particular factions or warcasters.

Aye, I've priced out my army, but haven't sold them off yet. I have quite a few friends that have been trying to get me to switch over, and I've watched them play a few games, so maybe I'll have them run me through a few. I do know enough to know that I prefer Fury over Focus, although I think Focus is an easier concept to wrap your mind around.. it seems a little more limiting to me. Either way I want to thank everyone for their help so far. One thing I do like about this game so far is it seems even within a given faction there's a lot of versatility. Looking at Everblight there's a fair amount of shooty warlocks but there's also some great melee ones.

The general consensus is that Fury is stronger in the earlier game, as you can use more of it than you would get focus, although you run the risk of your beasts going mad. Focus is stronger in the later game as it is a constant supply, whereas Hordes warlocks find that their supply can dwindle as warbeasts are killed, and may wind up having to harm themselves to get fury.

Fury is only stronger when you have warbeasts out.

And they can fall rather fast.

After that point Focus is stronger.

The balance is solid. For most casual players It'll seem darn near perfect, unless one player gets really attached to something that just don't work well.

It's got some issues, but as others have said it's less than a 20% variance and mostly comes in at tournament level stuff. It isn't as drum-tight, as something like say... Starcraft but it's pretty darn good as far as tabletop gaming goes.

Hey Cretin,
Check here http://volunteers.privateerpress.com/location/users

For a Press Ganger in your area. They are PP's volunteers and will help you with anything you'll need starting out!

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
Hey Cretin,
Check here http://volunteers.privateerpress.com/location/users

For a Press Ganger in your area. They are PP's volunteers and will help you with anything you'll need starting out!

Thank you, sadly I live not quite in middle of nowhere, but close to it. Closest Press Ganger would be in El Paso, about an hour away from me.

Warhammer Games being a larger scale tend to lend themselves to be more balanced against one another actually.

Smaller skirmish games like Warmachine here has found a tournament style to deal with this, the 2 list system. While it has flaws in competitions it helps over all.

Just like any game system it all comes down to what you decide to take...need to be able to deal with infantry as well as the heavy stuff.

And just like any game system, an opponent spamming something can be a rock paper scissors game.

 ductvader wrote:
Warhammer Games being a larger scale tend to lend themselves to be more balanced against one another actually.

Smaller skirmish games like Warmachine here has found a tournament style to deal with this, the 2 list system. While it has flaws in competitions it helps over all.

Just like any game system it all comes down to what you decide to take...need to be able to deal with infantry as well as the heavy stuff.

And just like any game system, an opponent spamming something can be a rock paper scissors game.

You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about!

Are you really trying to say that GW games are more balanced than WMH?

I'm wondering the same...

Somone saying a Warhammer has more balance makes me wonder..... all i can say about that really is lol....


And spamming units rarely happens in Warmachine... Once again.. that would be Warhammer games.

 Spyder68 wrote:


And spamming units rarely happens in Warmachine... Once again.. that would be Warhammer games.

well, my eButcher theme list would like to disagree with you. It has about 50 doom reavers in it (8squads of six, plus reinforcements). and i've placed in tournaments with it. that level of crazy is fun though

There are spam builds, and spam can work, but in general, sside from theme lists, spam is rarely an issue.

There are of course armies who do take multiples of the same units.. but its not often..

Unlike the other game where every army does it.

At the same time though, Warhammer is about fantasy battles with huge armies. Multiples of any given unit seem to almost be a requirement when you're doing a game like that. It's a bit different with Warmachine, where the focus is still on "skirmish" level battles. Even a 50 point game doesn't see a gigantic array of units on the field normally.

Well if you want to compare model count on the table, with the exception of intentionally spammy armies such as Orkz or IG

WM/H armies each have a unit that costs 6 points for 10 guys, if you bring 3, maybe 4 of those squads in a 50 point game, it will give relatively similar scale as WH

I think we should end the whole Warhammer comparison so it doesnt turn into one of "Those" Threads.

 Spyder68 wrote:
I think we should end the whole Warhammer comparison so it doesnt turn into one of "Those" Threads.

Agreed, as the OP it was never my intention to do that. I just noticed a flaw in a game I play and wanted to see if it exist in these games as well. I feel pretty confident in the answers I've received.

cretinator wrote:
So some of you may of saw my post in the WHFB forum about balance between WFB vs. 40k. Lol the first response to my question was basically if you want balance don't play a GW game. So here's my question to you all, coming from someone who only has a passing knowledge of Warmachine / Hordes, do you think your games are fairly balanced between the armies? That is can any army take on any other army? Or are there clearly some that just dominate play?

Only thing I could find "unbalanced" is Cryx, but they are only like 10-20% more powerful than the other factions, which is little to little effect of the game. Its a pretty stable game from this point of view and that is pretty much what WarmaHordes is known for, a very balanced game. So any new player can just start without being utterly dominated with a very stronger faction than yours, because everybody pretty much has the same level of the power of factions, but what I think the game mostly requires is skill and luck.

cretinator wrote:
Thank you guys.. yeah after a terrible day of 40k I'm really thinking about either selling them off or seeing if I can get an army swap for WarmaHordes. The balance in 40k is just sooo bad. I mean there are literally players in 40k that I love as people but I refuse to play them as I know my army has almost no chance of beating theirs.

I went the same route, though I usually won at 40k, it just stopped being fun

common analogy I throw out, 40k is checkers, warmachine is chess, you have less dudes, and they do different things, but its all about protecting that king.

I dont see much imbalance in WM, there are a few a-hole lists like winterguard+conquest or ehaley+stormwalls, ect. that will seem insurmountable when you start, but that is largely because you are really encouraged to play the hell out of warmachine. There aren't tons of ambiguous things like warhammer vehicle-turning to gets extra movement, but you are expected to try and pull out all the stops and use everything at your disposal, while knowing something about your opponents caster/army, to win. Games that I'd just call on turn 2-3 I'm turning into assassinations because of things I just didnt see before

 Sharps wrote:

cretinator wrote:
So some of you may of saw my post in the WHFB forum about balance between WFB vs. 40k. Lol the first response to my question was basically if you want balance don't play a GW game. So here's my question to you all, coming from someone who only has a passing knowledge of Warmachine / Hordes, do you think your games are fairly balanced between the armies? That is can any army take on any other army? Or are there clearly some that just dominate play?

Only thing I could find "unbalanced" is Cryx, but they are only like 10-20% more powerful than the other factions, which is little to little effect of the game. Its a pretty stable game from this point of view and that is pretty much what WarmaHordes is known for, a very balanced game. So any new player can just start without being utterly dominated with a very stronger faction than yours, because everybody pretty much has the same level of the power of factions, but what I think the game mostly requires is skill and luck.

No offense intended..

But where are you getting the statements that Cryx are 10-20% more powerful then everyone else ? As its simply not true.

I think due to the nature of the specialist role, dual lists, etc.---'balance' in WM is going to become more about what variety you have to bring to the table.

That said, I would say Minions are probably in the most uncomfortable position--as they really don't have a great deal of variety and will struggle against certain skew lists. They are still developing though, so given time I'm sure they'll be fine as well.

 Sharps wrote:

Only thing I could find "unbalanced" is Cryx, but they are only like 10-20% more powerful than the other factions, which is little to little effect of the game. Its a pretty stable game from this point of view and that is pretty much what WarmaHordes is known for, a very balanced game. So any new player can just start without being utterly dominated with a very stronger faction than yours, because everybody pretty much has the same level of the power of factions, but what I think the game mostly requires is skill and luck.

Yeah I'm not seeing how cryx is imbalanced, they have some rock hard, hard hitting infantry, but come up short on jack flexibility and many of their mechanics work with souls that their infantry cannot provide. There's plenty of times, like if you can lay down 1dmg cloud effects, that "apply bane, repeat" simply crumbles to a more flexible army.

 Spyder68 wrote:

 Sharps wrote:

cretinator wrote:
So some of you may of saw my post in the WHFB forum about balance between WFB vs. 40k. Lol the first response to my question was basically if you want balance don't play a GW game. So here's my question to you all, coming from someone who only has a passing knowledge of Warmachine / Hordes, do you think your games are fairly balanced between the armies? That is can any army take on any other army? Or are there clearly some that just dominate play?

Only thing I could find "unbalanced" is Cryx, but they are only like 10-20% more powerful than the other factions, which is little to little effect of the game. Its a pretty stable game from this point of view and that is pretty much what WarmaHordes is known for, a very balanced game. So any new player can just start without being utterly dominated with a very stronger faction than yours, because everybody pretty much has the same level of the power of factions, but what I think the game mostly requires is skill and luck.

No offense intended..

But where are you getting the statements that Cryx are 10-20% more powerful then everyone else ? As its simply not true.

Do they seem 5% more powerful? Or how about 2.5%? 1.2% Bottoms.

Winterguard and Conquest? What?

 Sharps wrote:

 Spyder68 wrote:

 Sharps wrote:

cretinator wrote:
So some of you may of saw my post in the WHFB forum about balance between WFB vs. 40k. Lol the first response to my question was basically if you want balance don't play a GW game. So here's my question to you all, coming from someone who only has a passing knowledge of Warmachine / Hordes, do you think your games are fairly balanced between the armies? That is can any army take on any other army? Or are there clearly some that just dominate play?

Only thing I could find "unbalanced" is Cryx, but they are only like 10-20% more powerful than the other factions, which is little to little effect of the game. Its a pretty stable game from this point of view and that is pretty much what WarmaHordes is known for, a very balanced game. So any new player can just start without being utterly dominated with a very stronger faction than yours, because everybody pretty much has the same level of the power of factions, but what I think the game mostly requires is skill and luck.

No offense intended..

But where are you getting the statements that Cryx are 10-20% more powerful then everyone else ? As its simply not true.

Do they seem 5% more powerful? Or how about 2.5%? 1.2% Bottoms.

I'd say at face value to a noobie they're scarier than most. They can greatly throw someone off their game by reading lists of abilities.