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One thing many gamers don't see is a Black Templar army.

Why not?

They have some pretty awesome fluff, are very characterful and seem to be as good as vanilla now they have access to flyers.

They also have really cool rules when taken with the Emperor's Champion and some of the best characters in the game.

So why don't we see more of them?

Because the codex really shows its age. Their troops choice isn't very good, isn't appropriately costed when compared to other marine equivalents, and has to pay extra for standard war gear like frag and krak grenades. Their Rhinos and Razorbacks are more expensive than everyone else's, their mandatory Emperor's Champion no longer fills out the required HQ slot and took a nerf when the preferred enemy vow went to Rage, and righteous zeal is a terrible rule to have in an edition that favours shooting so heavily.

Finally, and perhaps this is the most egregious offense, the army is supposed to play as a close combat elitist force, but the FAQs, the Death from the Skies supplement, and the edition changes force them to play shooty to stay even semi-competitive.

So the average vanilla is better?

Out side a few very specific and narrow builds, yup, vanilla is better.

barnowl wrote:
Out side a few very specific and narrow builds, yup, vanilla is better.

2 assault cannons in a 5 man termy unit!

 Exergy wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Out side a few very specific and narrow builds, yup, vanilla is better.

2 assault cannons in a 5 man termy unit!

To add:

Those terminators get Tank Hunters!
Cheapo Predators (although Chaos and Dark Angels get the cheapest now).
Cheap Typhoon Land Speeders
HQ can get immunity to ID
Emperor's Champion with anti-psyker vow gives 5+ DTW and a free D6" movement to everybody in your army if the enemy has psykers, and alot of them do these days.

As a "penalty", you get 16 point basic marines without grenades, but you can take "20" man units for relatively cheap by T4 standards. Templars can also do heavy weapons in 5 man squads (Dark Angels can too now).

So really, Templars are hardly "bad" in 6th edition, but their options do center around the really good units.

If i were to name the worst codex out there.... yep BT. They have some fun items, and you can play them in friendly games, and that's about it. Everything "great" about the BT has already been mentioned. in about 5 sentences. they really need a new dex!

This isn't me looking to do a Black Templar army, I'm happy being stuck between the decision of Tau or Daemons.

It just interested me to find out why we don't see many BT players.

I should have put this in General.

My bad.

Adamantine Mantles don't grant immunity to ID, they provide immunity to ID from S=2xT.

BT HQs are "good" as in "will beat up other HQs as long as it's not any other decent beatstick in the game".

Terminators are good, Techmarines can be good, Typhoons are decent, fliers are decent, blobs are rather resilient. That's pretty much it. I love my Templars, but they're by far the worst MEQ army (hardly surprising, considering the age of the Codex) and a hot candidate to the title of "worst army". Having 0 psychic support and little to offer as allies doesn't exactly help either.

Then there's the strange allies chart. What GW thought we'll never know...

Since when did Black Templars get access to flyers?

Also, BS5 Venerable Dreadnoughts? Where is that?

 Isean wrote:
Since when did Black Templars get access to flyers?

Also, BS5 Venerable Dreadnoughts? Where is that?

Death from the Skies, it was released a few weeks ago.

The venerable rule has always given the reroll on the damage table and +1 to WS and BS.

 Grey Templar wrote:

The venerable rule has always given the reroll on the damage table and +1 to WS and BS.

If by "always" you mean "since this January", then you're correct.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Death from the Skies, it was released a few weeks ago.

The venerable rule has always given the reroll on the damage table and +1 to WS and BS.

I will have to look at Death from the Skies...and I am looking at BT Codex and FAQs...codex on venerable says nothing about +1 WS and BS, just the reroll. The FAQ I am looking at only says venerable dreads can have tank hunter or furious charge for +10. I have a venerable dreadnought...but I would need to see where it says he is BS/WS 5 before I change the way I play him.

 Isean wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Death from the Skies, it was released a few weeks ago.

The venerable rule has always given the reroll on the damage table and +1 to WS and BS.

I will have to look at Death from the Skies...and I am looking at BT Codex and FAQs...codex on venerable says nothing about +1 WS and BS, just the reroll. The FAQ I am looking at only says venerable dreads can have tank hunter or furious charge for +10. I have a venerable dreadnought...but I would need to see where it says he is BS/WS 5 before I change the way I play him.

"Q: There is no Black Templars vehicle reference section at the back of the rulebook. Does this mean I should use the Codex: Space Marines vehicle reference section instead (meaning my Venerable Dreadnoughts are now Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 5, for example?

A: Yes."

Last page in magenta writing.

Puscifer wrote:
This isn't me looking to do a Black Templar army, I'm happy being stuck between the decision of Tau or Daemons.

It just interested me to find out why we don't see many BT players.

I should have put this in General.

My bad.

Daemons. Always Daemons. Plus, since we just got our codex, you won't have to change up your army for a good while, wheras with tau, they are getting a new codex soon, meaning unit's you buy now might be bad in the new book.

Seriously, most fun army out there, daemons. Bonkers.

But on your question, no, for the most part, templar's are outdated. There are a small number of tricks that work well with them that counter the codex's age, but those tricks are pale in comparison to the tricks in other, more modern books.

Puscifer wrote:
One thing many gamers don't see is a Black Templar army.

Why not?

They have some pretty awesome fluff, are very characterful and seem to be as good as vanilla now they have access to flyers.

They also have really cool rules when taken with the Emperor's Champion and some of the best characters in the game.

So why don't we see more of them?

Black Templars have been competitive for a long time. They have access to many things that other armies would kill for-- for instance, they have probably the best Terminators in the game because their book was written back when Terminators got two heavy weapons per five models and access to Veteran Skills and hasn't been updated since. However, most of the competitive options in Codex: Black Templars are highly unfluffy-- the book works best as a missile spam shooty army from hell, with little to no emphasis on the Chapter's vaunted close combat elements!

All in all, I think Black Templars are unpopular not because they're uncompetitive-- in many ways they are quite strong-- but because they have a lot of wonky or outdated rules, the strong armies don't mesh with their fluff, and the book is old enough that only truly dedicated players have stuck with it.

Play to their strengths, easy as that. For those of us still playing and winning its a matter of wringing every point and tactic out of the codex. Earning a win is 100 times better than cheese in my book. Thats bragging rights. And if you lose, whatever, book is eight years old. Oh but when we get the new book.......Emperor help you all.

I shelved my Orks for these guys!

As an original BT player, it is sad to see them go by the wayside in 6th ed. However, I do believe that they are still competitive by making them more shooty and less assaulty (as they were originally intended to be). Vindicators have become extremely invaluable to me as a BT player, making me shelve my Land Raider (My Orks took care of that! LOL ).

Dreads with LasCannons, BTs now get flyers, and what has already been said about Termies. We might not be totally 100% competitive nowadays until the new codex comes out (2015 last rumor I heard - it got bumped back), but we can at least make the opponent work for it!

Templars are a mighty temperamental army.

They have two extremes. Pure Pwnage and Already Lost.

That being said, there are some really nasty things you can do with a BT army list.

The first being the mandatory Emperor's Champion. You essentially get a melee Chaplain as a 3rd HQ choice.

Include him and two other chaplains (for the already included 4++) and you have an opposing force for melee, which is really where templars specialize.

Add to that the ability to take Crusaders as dedicated transports. You can drop a 14 man melee troop choice with the EC in one and roll it right up to your objective.

I think it really boils down to the amount of points you can spend in your game/tournament and how well you can round out your army to deal with threats.

A guy at my local GW runs a triple land raider list and I saw it do pretty well.

Actually I want to add some Templars with my angels sometime soon.

My buddy does well, termies, 2 landraiders, 1 stormraven, 1 dreadnaught

sometimes not all of the above cuz thats a lot of points but still he does well

I love the fact that we get Storm Ravens and Storm Talons now!

Ive always wanted to run a Raider Rush but always trying to round out the army before I spam. Im going for another Pred and two Vindis now with an Aegis for a shooting heavy back field. Another Talon to replace my two Typhoons.

Ideally at 1850 Im looking at an EC/Chappy/Black Tide, two 5 man shooty squads (one in Lasback for late game grabbing, one behind Aegis), CML Termis in a Quad Aegis, two Talons, and two Preds, or two Vindis, or a Pred/Vindi combo.

Other list Im toying drops the Black Tide, swap the Chappy for a shooty TDA Marshall manning the Quad with the Termis, drop the Lasback, squeeze my Raven in and gunline while the fliers sweep up.

I also think BT can still buy a 5 man squad with both lascannon and plasma rifle. Really good, cheap fire support. BT are still quite competitive in balanced builds. I think a BT list with two rhino squads, two razorback shooty squads, a flyer, and a hammernator squad in crusader would be very competitive if played well.