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What do you think the RAI for the Banner of Devastation is intended to be?

Is it limited to bolteguns or the greater boltguns definition (p56) including bolt pistols, stormbolters, and heavy bolters?

Until it is defined, I am limiting it to boltguns, hurricane bolters and combi-bolters...

So no one cries cheese, I am limiting it. However I think the more inclusive definition would be fine... It would definitely make some more builds liveable...

Mobile Devastators... Pain Ravenwing Support Squadrons of dual Heavy Bolter squadrons... plain Landraider TL Heavy Bolters and TL heavybolter razorbacks..
twin-linked deathwing stormbolters of doom...

The one thing that makes me wonder is no definition including 24" range in the description of the Banner.

I voted boltguns only, but it's not that people are "OMG you are fishing for cheese!!!" - rather it's that GW has poorly defined it.

I think it's intended to be limited to hand held bolters and combi's only - not Hurricane bolters.

As with Rigeld2 .. it's not about cheese. Boltguns are Boltguns (not bolt pistols, heavy bolters, etc)

But of course, GW had to put Boltguns AND the other "bolt weapons" under the heading "Boltguns". To say the others are a "boltgun" would mean they have a different weapon profile than otherwise listed, as boltguns have a specific weapon profile that differs from Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters, etc (imo).

I'm undecided on the combi-bolter being included however. ** Edit : Combi-bolter is a twin linked boltgun .. I would read the banner to apply to them as well (and combi-weapons)

I would say boltguns, combi-bolters. possibly hurricane too, as they are used as 3 set of TL boltguns.

Combi-bolters definitely as they are a boltgun and an one shot weapon.

But yes, bad specifying from GW.

Jangustus wrote:
I would say boltguns, combi-bolters. possibly hurricane too, as they are used as 3 set of TL boltguns.

Combi-bolters definitely as they are a boltgun and an one shot weapon.

But yes, bad specifying from GW.

I was under the impression a combi-bolter was a TL bolter. Combi-weapons are boltgun + another one shot special weapon.
Subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Boltguns only!

Boltguns. Which would include Twin-linked Bolters, Hurricane Bolters, and the Bolter portion of a Combi-weapon.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Jangustus wrote:
I would say boltguns, combi-bolters. possibly hurricane too, as they are used as 3 set of TL boltguns.

Combi-bolters definitely as they are a boltgun and an one shot weapon.

But yes, bad specifying from GW.

I was under the impression a combi-bolter was a TL bolter. Combi-weapons are boltgun + another one shot special weapon.
Subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Quite correct, I was thinking combi-weapons.

Nevertheless, combi-bolters still count as they are bolters, albeit twin-linked ones.

Where is the ""Other" option?

I say the banner affects any weapon that requires you to look at the Boltgun profile, ie. boltguns, combi-weapons and hurricane bolters (including twinlinked and mastercrafted versions of the mentioned weapons),

I'd love it if they FAQ'd it to all things that fire bolts, but until that mythical day arrives I'm firmly in the Bolter, Combi-weapon, and Hurricane and I only include Hurricanes because they specify that they are three sets of boltguns.

The Standard of Devastation says that all boltguns within 6" will be salvo 2/4 or something to that effect.

Under the header "BOLTGUNS" in the BGB (p.56), all bolter weapons are included, including storm bolters and heavy bolters.

So either they meant boltguns as:

1) All weapons under the BOLTGUNS header of the BGB.

2) "Lowercase" boltguns, hurricane bolters, and combi-weapons

To me it seems like the RAW could be either 1 or 2.

The RAI is probably 2 though.

In the interest of sportsmanship we should probably play it as number two.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Standard of Devastation says that all boltguns within 6" will be salvo 2/4 or something to that effect.

Under the header "BOLTGUNS" in the BGB (p.56), all bolter weapons are included, including storm bolters and heavy bolters.

So either they meant boltguns as:

1) All weapons under the BOLTGUNS header of the BGB.

2) "Lowercase" boltguns, hurricane bolters, and combi-weapons

To me it seems like the RAW could be either 1 or 2.

The RAI is probably 2 though.

In the interest of sportsmanship we should probably play it as number two.

Space Marine bikes come with a "twin-linked boltgun". Does that mean I could model my bikes with a Vulcan Megabolter?

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Standard of Devastation says that all boltguns within 6" will be salvo 2/4 or something to that effect.

Under the header "BOLTGUNS" in the BGB (p.56), all bolter weapons are included, including storm bolters and heavy bolters.

So either they meant boltguns as:

1) All weapons under the BOLTGUNS header of the BGB.

2) "Lowercase" boltguns, hurricane bolters, and combi-weapons

To me it seems like the RAW could be either 1 or 2.

The RAI is probably 2 though.

In the interest of sportsmanship we should probably play it as number two.

Space Marine bikes come with a "twin-linked boltgun". Does that mean I could model my bikes with a Vulcan Megabolter?

LOL, no. The point is what the banner will effect not what it allows you to model (e.g. Space Marines toting Megabolters)... BTW good catch a minus to the Banner - if it affects all on the bolter table - would be a hefty minus on any Vulcan Megabolter within 6".... That would lead me to believe it is the narrow definition intended.

Bolt guns only, in the DA codex there is no mention of these other boltgun/weapons as being boltguns, the only boltgun entry is the normal boltgun. Codex trumps BRB no?, codex says boltgun is boltgun.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Standard of Devastation says that all boltguns within 6" will be salvo 2/4 or something to that effect.

Under the header "BOLTGUNS" in the BGB (p.56), all bolter weapons are included, including storm bolters and heavy bolters.

So either they meant boltguns as:

1) All weapons under the BOLTGUNS header of the BGB.

2) "Lowercase" boltguns, hurricane bolters, and combi-weapons

To me it seems like the RAW could be either 1 or 2.

The RAI is probably 2 though.

In the interest of sportsmanship we should probably play it as number two.

Since RAW could be All weapons under the "BOLTGUNS" heading of the BRB, then that means my Space Marines will now carry a Bolt Pistol and a Vulkan Mega-Bolter (or Heavy Bolter, or Storm Bolter) as their wargear simply states "Bolt Pistol + Boltgun". RAI is obvious however (in that case) that Boltgun = the profile boltgun and not the other weapons mentioned under the "Boltguns" heading. It's unfortunate that GW wrote it that way as it CAN cause confusion by not being clear what they mean by "boltgun" as a result of the BRB heading.

RAI, most clearly 2.

 Happyjew wrote:
Space Marine bikes come with a "twin-linked boltgun". Does that mean I could model my bikes with a Vulcan Megabolter?

That would then depend on what the stock model was supplied with.

Since they are supplied with a boltgun (Range 24 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire) Weapon, we should use that profile.

If we are sporting and not MFA.

Remember If there is equal weight, choosing the option that gives the action taker less advantage is the more ethical choice.

Don't get silly people... The banner AFFECTS what models already have. It does not suddenly allow you to switch for a weapon not even mentioned as an option for a character. It is accepted - since it is the only option that a marine is provided with - that he ill have a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, combi-bolter or heavy bolter. Likewise with terminators, bikes etc. I think it would be safe to say, that these were the only "boltgun" options provided for SM since 2nd edition. (Can't speak for Rogue Trader...)

The issue is the ambiguity that the use of boltgun as a term causes when a new item - the Banner of Devastation - was introduced in the latest codex.

However, since a Vulcan Megabolter is under the listing of boltguns in the core book. And since being in the area of the banner would be a total screw of a Vulcan Megabolter, I think we can infer that the intention of the banner is the narrow definition of boltgun.

Too bad ambiguous rules force us to wait for a FAQ or a lot of inferencing logic through the rules.

Thanks to all who helped so when someone tries to push for the cheesy option, I have a solid argument for the narrow definition.

If "boltgun" is just a generic term for all bolt weapons including heavy bolters and vulcans, then in every codex entry that lists "boltguns" is allowed to pick from the list.


That's the only way you can interpret the banner effecting things like storm bolters. Either a "boltgun" is a rapid fire S4 AP5 weapon with a 24" range, or it's any of the options listed.

You can't have it 1 way with the banner, and different with with everything else.

Consistency is key here, and if you want your banner to affect stormbolters, then my marines come standard with heavy bolters.

The point is ambiguous language in a NEW item. The NEW item is not defined as to what it affects. However it is well accepted what options a marine can carry - not Vulcan Megabolters for sure...

Don't beat a dead horse. I have said through inference, if an item is intended to be a bonus for an army but if it affected the greater definition of it, Megabolters would be reduced to a ROF of 4. It is therefore safe to assume that it would mean that the RAI is boltguns only.... That limits it to boltguns along with hurricane bolters and combi-bolters that are defined as being in part boltguns or multiple boltguns.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Consistency is key here, and if you want your banner to affect stormbolters, then my marines come standard with heavy bolters.

Only if they come with "boltguns". Most marines come with Bolters.

Really, quick check in my BA codex and the tac squad entry says in regards to swapping out weapons, boltgun is the term used, not bolters.

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, quick check in my BA codex and the tac squad entry says in regards to swapping out weapons, boltgun is the term used, not bolters.

Well crap. I remember looking this up before and seeing a lot of "Bolters'. Still my point stands. If "Boltgun" means anything listed under boltguns in the BRB then any model equipped with a boltgun can have any of the listed weapons. If Boltgun refers only to the weapon with the S4, AP5 Rapid Fire (base) profile (which is at least the intent) then that is the only weapon that is affected by the Banner.

 Happyjew wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, quick check in my BA codex and the tac squad entry says in regards to swapping out weapons, boltgun is the term used, not bolters.

Well crap. I remember looking this up before and seeing a lot of "Bolters'. Still my point stands. If "Boltgun" means anything listed under boltguns in the BRB then any model equipped with a boltgun can have any of the listed weapons. If Boltgun refers only to the weapon with the S4, AP5 Rapid Fire (base) profile (which is at least the intent) then that is the only weapon that is affected by the Banner.

Agreed. Boltgun is entirely accepted to mean S4 AP5 RF boltgun, not anything else. As such, the banner affects only boltguns with that profile (which includes combi-weapons of course)

And yes, the Marine codex does state "boltgun" in wargear. Clearly RAI is the 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire boltgun and not the others, but obviously, with this information someone *could* argue, RAW, to equip any of the other "boltgun"s on their marine. Of course, nobody would play against that person, but that's another issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:
Don't get silly people... The banner AFFECTS what models already have. It does not suddenly allow you to switch for a weapon not even mentioned as an option for a character. It is accepted - since it is the only option that a marine is provided with - that he ill have a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, combi-bolter or heavy bolter. Likewise with terminators, bikes etc. I think it would be safe to say, that these were the only "boltgun" options provided for SM since 2nd edition. (Can't speak for Rogue Trader...)
.

I don't think anyone is truely trying to say that you can switch your standard boltguns for something else. This was simply a ridiculous argument used to support the accepted term of "boltgun" to mean S4 AP5 RF profile boltguns and not the general "boltgun" heading in the BRB which includes other profile weapons. Using RAW and taking the generic term "boltgun" under the heading for it in the BRB leads to the ability to model your Marines with any of those weapons. Obviously not intended.