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Boomstick wrote:
I support GW and their right to sell what they design and what they make how they please. Its their product. Not saying i agree with it but hold them to no obligation other than provide a product i enjoy and will continue to enjoy for many years to come.

I don't support it but I agree GW are allowed to do whatever they want with their products. But that fact doesn't mean I like what they do with their product, and if I don't like it odds are I won't buy it.

Boomstick wrote:
I support GW and their right to sell what they design and what they make how they please. Its their product. Not saying i agree with it but hold them to no obligation other than provide a product i enjoy and will continue to enjoy for many years to come.

I don't think anyone is contesting their "right" to sell what they design how they please, rather just voicing displeasure in what they are doing. I think a person should be able to do pretty much anything they want - including stupid and wreckless things. I might say, you don't want to jump off that bridge...the water is too shallow. If they continue to jump, I am not going to stop them. However, because it was their right to be dumb - does that mean I shouldn't have told them that the water is too shallow?

I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them, which i dont.

Boomstick wrote:
I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them.

That issue though goes to a more complicated one. GW has chosen to be both a manufacturer and a retailer. As such, their manufacturing arm behaves under certain rules and restrictions and their retail arm behaves under other rules and restrictions. If they decide that they should use the leverage of their manufacturing arm to prop up their retail arm - that is generally illegal in most civilized countries. If they are having a hard time competing, they could stop independent sales completely or they can stop their retail arm activities. Both will solve the problem without resulting to tactics which are not allowed under trade rules.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).

TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).

TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items

You probably won't find it...until you send in an order for $2000 worth of goods and receive a box with $500 worth of goods. It actually makes sense given the rest of the information that GW has provided (both the trade terms and comments made in the financial reports). They want you to send them to the GW website or a GW store where they sell on a higher margin than they do when dealing with you. Like the rest of these terms though - we will see the impact in a few months time.

I don't see any reason why MWG would have added that limit if it didn't exist though. It adds nothing to the story, and there was already enough to vent over if they wanted to with direct only items that LGS could not even special order.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).

TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items

You probably won't find it...until you send in an order for $2000 worth of goods and receive a box with $500 worth of goods. It actually makes sense given the rest of the information that GW has provided (both the trade terms and comments made in the financial reports). They want you to send them to the GW website or a GW store where they sell on a higher margin than they do when dealing with you. Like the rest of these terms though - we will see the impact in a few months time.

I don't see any reason why MWG would have added that limit if it didn't exist though. It adds nothing to the story, and there was already enough to vent over if they wanted to with direct only items that LGS could not even special order.

It doesn't make sense to have arbitrary rules like that, since without them being in the Policy, they have no right to enforce it. I've emailed my rep so I guess I'll find out tomorrow.

Boomstick wrote:
I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them, which i dont.

The need of the one, and all that, at the expense of everyone else is not a business decision. It's the tool of a tyrant to keep themselves in power. The faster they go to the torch, the better for the rest of us. I'd rater 1 GW go up in flames the the hundreds of LGS's, AND thier customer base, along with the added on gaming communities that gw indoctrination centers/shops rip apart and leave empty disillusioned husks of thier former selves.

Aside from the fact that these "shops" are mismanaged car salesmen, they are hostile territory to gaming. They can't fail fast enough to divert funds to the yearly dividends.

What exactly are they for when they remove thier prime mission in life? Money pits.

Stable growing gaming communities are more important then Wort and Kirby's retirement funds.

Just to point out a small fact,as I have owned several stores both internet and B&M, if you boycott GW and seeing as their product is a huge seller for a lot of business's would you in fact be screwing over those internet stores and LGS? I say this because even though I sell other stuff GW is still my top seller so if my customers said "no more GW" then in fact they would be hurting me as well. It's no different then when a large corp looses money they have to do lay offs. You think you are hurting the company but in fact the company is hurting the people who depend on it. If you want to boycott then buy just through those stores don't buy through GW. That will send more of a message then you think.

 Empchild wrote:
Just to point out a small fact,as I have owned several stores both internet and B&M, if you boycott GW and seeing as their product is a huge seller for a lot of business's would you in fact be screwing over those internet stores and LGS? I say this because even though I sell other stuff GW is still my top seller so if my customers said "no more GW" then in fact they would be hurting me as well. It's no different then when a large corp looses money they have to do lay offs. You think you are hurting the company but in fact the company is hurting the people who depend on it. If you want to boycott then buy just through those stores don't buy through GW. That will send more of a message then you think.

That's assuming they said 'no more GW' and bought nothing more. I think the majority are saying 'no more GW, lets have a closer look at that Infinity/Malifaux/Warmahordes' so I would hope you'd merely see an alteration to the balance of your sales, rather than a drop.

I would also advocate purchasing through independents whenever possible too, as you say, as receiving money from wholesale sales rather than retail will make a heck of a difference to GW's bottom line (~40%?)

A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.

The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?

Meh, play more Warmahordes.

 aosol wrote:
Meh, play more Warmahordes.

That's not really an answer, though I personally love PP as they only do their main bit of seller through Distribution. They are great at supporting events; the only real problem is they are bad at restocking.

 aosol wrote:
Meh, play more Warmahordes.

Thats what you bring?

My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.

That's great to hear actually but it takes time inventory wise to change over. If I were to drop all of my product and go to PP I would lose money. That said Batman Arkham sales are on the rise and those minis rock so Cheers!

 aosol wrote:
Meh, play more Warmahordes.

Meh, play more Infinity.

 -Loki- wrote:

 aosol wrote:
Meh, play more Warmahordes.

Meh, play more Infinity.

Heck, play more chess.

Hopscotch!

Soggy Sayo!

 Mad4Minis wrote:
My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.

ask him if he wants to bulk clearance it to Georgia,

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:
My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.

ask him if he wants to bulk clearance it to Georgia,

Last time I was in there they had maybe 20 items left, and that was several weeks ago. Im sure its all gone now. It was almost a shame I had decided not to play 40k, I could have picked up some Tau stuff cheap...or should I say for about the price they really should be.

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?

The open store demo's do more for growing the hobby than any online retailer has ever done. Nobody (or rather no significant number) of people get into a hobby like ours just because they seen it on a website. You know what brings people into the hobby? Knowing other people in the hobby, seeing others enjoying their hobby or doing an introductory activity like a demo game at a GW store or an independent. The last one is especially effective when done right.

Know what online sellers are like? It's like that guy you see every week along the side of the road selling golf balls out of the back of his car. He sells golf balls to golfers but no one takes up golf because he's there.

 Empchild wrote:
A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.

You missed the point what azreal13 was making??

More and more people are in Fact "buying alot of other stuff". If you want to play Table-top wargames you need someone to play with right? The fact that alot of the gaming clubs, Including the one I belong to have stoped playing Games Workshops games, will make an impact in the long run. We activly try our best to steer people away from games workshop.

Many other clubs in my local area are doing the same.. we keep in contact you see "because despite GWs best efforts to break the gaming Communitys They have Failed" more and more people are leaving the GW side of the hobby. So instead of you selling GW products you will start selling other things insdead.. If you want to be a part of the solution instead of the problem, start promoting other games more through your Retail store. Stop kissing up to GW, because your customers have in the past years slowly started to move away from them... and in the past year it has started trickling into a flood.....

We the communites and customers of these games are abandoning the GWTATANIC.. if you want to stay on board and sink with the ship be my guest.. but I sugest you come along with the rest of us in the lifeboats.. Privateer Press has a really wellmade one that has Great balance and will hold up in stormy seas..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orktavius wrote:

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?

The open store demo's do more for growing the hobby than any online retailer has ever done. Nobody (or rather no significant number) of people get into a hobby like ours just because they seen it on a website. You know what brings people into the hobby? Knowing other people in the hobby, seeing others enjoying their hobby or doing an introductory activity like a demo game at a GW store or an independent. The last one is especially effective when done right.

Know what online sellers are like? It's like that guy you see every week along the side of the road selling golf balls out of the back of his car. He sells golf balls to golfers but no one takes up golf because he's there.

You are correct here, and this is where games workshop are in trubble. Because they do not suport their community past trying to push Armyboxes on little childrean.. There is alot more happenings, events and gatherings with all the other games but nobody, does anything mayor with GWs products.. It feels really dead to be honest.. You cant build a lasting community with 10-12 year old little kidds.. You need to suport the older players also to keep the hobby alive past the inital stage of getting into it..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
Reading this makes me feel like all is lost in the moral standards of today. Honestly: the people that are stout defenders of this insane policy, or even passive about the current situation, are those that continue to worsen the situation. How can you love a game that is fueled by the ignorance of it's consumer base and built up by a company with a blatant disregard for it's community? It's pure insanity!

I agree 100%. Sadly I find it hard to communicate with people that are die hard GW Fanboys.. it feels like they have been brainwashed or something haha.. But I havent found one single person who was really interested in the hobby, painting and playing who hasent converted away from GW, if you put enough pressure on them. When you finaly get them to give another game a chans, they always leave GW behind... Some are very reluctant at first.. And you have to persuade them, some times for weeks, even months... But in the end I rescue them. You just have to deprogram them like you do with any cult member. Gain there trust, then slowly showing them the Error of their ways..

But there is no better feeling to see them play a new game for the first time, and you see that light that had gone out of there eyes (after years of abuse from GW) come back. And they start having fun again with the hobby.. That is why its worth putting alot of time and energy into getting people away from Games Workshop.

 Nucflash wrote:


I agree 100%. Sadly I find it hard to communicate with people that are die hard GW Fanboys.. it feels like they have been brainwashed or something haha.. But I havent found one single person who was really interested in the hobby, painting and playing who hasent converted away from GW, if you put enough pressure on them. When you finaly get them to give another game a chans, they always leave GW behind... Some are very reluctant at first.. And you have to persuade them, some times for weeks, even months... But in the end I rescue them. You just have to deprogram them like you do with any cult member. Gain there trust, then slowly showing them the Error of their ways..

But there is no better feeling to see them play a new game for the first time, and you see that light that had gone out of there eyes (after years of abuse from GW) come back. And they start having fun again with the hobby.. That is why its worth putting alot of time and energy into getting people away from Games Workshop.

What a utter load of garbage. Way to paint with a broad brush.

How is 'pressuring' someone through what sounds like abuse and bullying any better than them being in a Cult?

I enjoy wargaming, Miniature painting and Dungeon roleplaying. I still buy GW models and Play 40k. I have no plans to 'leave 40k behind' because I enjoy 40k, I like GW's models, I like the 3rd party models and it is what the events that I play at support. I do not need to be rescued, I do not need to be persuaded.

Warmahordes has almost no FACTIONS I enjoy the look of the models. I am not playing a game with models I do not want to paint. PP has nice models and sculpts, I care almost Zero for price as I buy models way more expensive than GW/PP when I like the model, but I simply do not care for the PP models. I own a few 'minions' because they made nice Dungeon monsters but I barley own enough to play and I did not enjoy the game.

*I don't care about internet stores. I try to 'Pay where I play' or buy from vendors who support the events and tourneys I attend. Those people will get my money unaffected by this policy.
*I don't care about Bitz dealers, especially ones who used their Trade discount to get ahead. I don't have a problem paying extra for bitz, and most bitz I need are Ork-related which I can trade pretty easily with my Ork Friends. We all have epic bitz boxes. Also, 3rd party ork dealers are numerous and in high demand.
*I don't care about exporters. I know many other products who have similar policies and I don't think it is unreasonable or unfair. Sure it hurts some people, but GW US treats me as a consumer pretty well and has for 15 years. I get good services from my local GW, good product and places to game. These negative policies have had almost zero negative impact on me personally and where I live.

The only policy which I care about is the 500$ limit for direct sales. Which I feel will be loosened post-policy as they probably felt a large amount of trade sales were generated from internet sales. I think when retailers show they have that much sales from in-store purchases, they will change the policy for those stores. They may not, who knows but I am deferring to my FLGS owners who some have said this is good for them. Who am I to disagree with them? I have already written GW to tell them that I think they should reconsider limiting their direct sales limit (which I notice was absent from the letter circulating the internet). I will sit and wait to see what happens.

I do not have a problem with people taking their money elsewhere. I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.

But I don't need to be 'bullied' into changing gaming systems by some new 'cult' who deems anyone who is not with them is against them. There is more than one way to form an opinion, and not everyone who disagrees with you is a cult fanboi who needs to be rescued to join some new mindless cult.

nkelsch wrote:
I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.

And for the majority of gamers who play at home...why should they pay to upkeep something that adds nothing to their experience - or for that matter be forced to subsidize a GW store on the other side of the world? Given the only known figures that have ever been released on the general game market (WotC's Adventure Game Survey) - there is no reason to think that a large portion of people actually game in stores. They game at home. People have also moved away from shopping for these sorts of things in stores as shopping online provides a better experience (no need to fumble through miscategorized pegs of blister packs looking for that one figure you are after or dealing with pushy sales people...or for the female gamers, leering creepy store patrons).

While I have nothing against game stores myself - I also have nothing which puts them in a particular high regard either. The employees that they have are no more or less important to me than the employees that Neal employs in New York or Steve employs in St Louis. While I do think they are important first contact for a lot of gamers - they can adapt and survive by providing additional value above and beyond a traditional game store...not through core product pricing, but things like organized play for those who enjoy tournaments and the like.

nkelsch wrote:
The only policy which I care about is the 500$ limit for direct sales. Which I feel will be loosened post-policy as they probably felt a large amount of trade sales were generated from internet sales. I think when retailers show they have that much sales from in-store purchases, they will change the policy for those stores. They may not, who knows but I am deferring to my FLGS owners who some have said this is good for them. Who am I to disagree with them? I have already written GW to tell them that I think they should reconsider limiting their direct sales limit (which I notice was absent from the letter circulating the internet). I will sit and wait to see what happens.

I think you're giving games workshop way too much credit here. You seem to think the reasons for these new trade terms are.. idk, something not sinister.

GW will not alter this limit after the fact, they WANT to stop people buying from their preferred retailer. They are happy to cut out every FLGS if it drives half of those stores' customers to buy GW direct, even if the other half quit the hobby, because THEY WILL STILL EARN MORE MONEY THAT WAY. Trade sales are at 55% or so of RRP, GW look at those sales and think "there is no reason we shouldn't be selling those for full price."

GW want to replace all the FLGS in the US with 800 of their own stores (like they have in the UK) and force you to buy direct from them to cut out the "freeloading" FLGS.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.

And for the majority of gamers who play at home...why should they pay to upkeep something that adds nothing to their experience - or for that matter be forced to subsidize a GW store on the other side of the world? Given the only known figures that have ever been released on the general game market (WotC's Adventure Game Survey) - there is no reason to think that a large portion of people actually game in stores. They game at home. People have also moved away from shopping for these sorts of things in stores as shopping online provides a better experience (no need to fumble through miscategorized pegs of blister packs looking for that one figure you are after or dealing with pushy sales people...or for the female gamers, leering creepy store patrons).

While I have nothing against game stores myself - I also have nothing which puts them in a particular high regard either. The employees that they have are no more or less important to me than the employees that Neal employs in New York or Steve employs in St Louis. While I do think they are important first contact for a lot of gamers - they can adapt and survive by providing additional value above and beyond a traditional game store...not through core product pricing, but things like organized play for those who enjoy tournaments and the like.

As long as you don't game at those stores you don't buy from, then there is no problem. Lots of people prepare meals and eat at home. The problem is when people begin making bag lunches and want to go eat at a restaurant for free.

If you play in a store, then pay at the store. If you play at home, then knock yourself out trying to find your awesome discounts. If you discount from the internet, then game in public showing no support or the classic "I bought a snickers bar which is equal to buying 600$ of product here, I support my store" then I have an issue.

Online stores don't provide you a place to play... So bad shelves, out of stock, people looking at your boobs... if you game in public, then regardless you need to support those stores.

I support Neal at the warstore sometimes because he sponsors tourneys I attend on the east coast. I send a portion of my purchasing directly proportionate to the time I spend at Warstore sponsored events. I make an effort to do a big purchase at NOVA every year from the warstore because they help support NOVA. None of these policies stop me from making those purchases.

Time will tell if this is all 'sinister' or not. There is so much hyperbole from hypocritical entitled posters online, Everything is 'sinister' the way they paint it. I am not going to say their policies are not shortsighted or ignorant sometimes... but this from many store owners POV is not a universally a net loss for many of them and I am going to have to talk to and rely on what the stores who support my ability to game say. I find stores who provide good quality gaming succeed, and those who feel entitled to my money fail.

None of this is going to make me quit GW... I have GW 2 stores near me which have great gaming, one being a bunker. Most of the gaming is done by CLUBS in the area who run events at the GW bunker or indy locations and are all independent of FLGS. I am willing to give GW credit that they do support our clubs locally and do have veteran support. They do consist of a portion of my gaming experience and get a portion of my money.

HERESY!