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 kronk wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


Internet do not play games with you.. But when most of the Community has stoped playing GW games in favor of other games.. That is what I mean when I say that word travels faster.. The gaming scene is not as large as you have in germany and the US. So we can impact it much faster..

You have that backwards.

You're local community is small, so that when the 4 guys you play all go to a new system, you have to:

1. change to their system to play.
2. Move.
3. Not play.

That has nothing to do with "word traveling faster". Just limited options. But that's ok. You've "been in retail all of your life" so I'm sure you know all about this sort of thing.

Point I'm making is if something better comes along it will go faster to switch to that system. You can argue "you have to", and for the people like me who want the change it works in our favor, any way you put it. It will go slower in a larger country like the US, but the change is comming. And it is Games workshops own fault for not keeping up with the times..

So you were the one that first changed games, got a few guys to do it, and the remaining couple of guys had to tag along or sit out.

Got it.

There's nothing wrong with changing games if the company or game you've been playing isn't to your liking. I hope you and your group have fun with Warmahordes (note that's the second time I've wished you well).

It's calling people that still enjoy the game names (like you've been doing) that's wrong. Best of luck to your posting future.

I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW...

Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?

To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.

Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.

 Nucflash wrote:
I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW...

Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?

I don't think everything is fine with GW, that's why I don't play GW games. I play Malifaux, Brushfire, Endless Fantasy Tactics, Flames of War, and Warmahordes. I have 3 40k armies and 2 Fantasy armies, they're gathering dust. Why? Because I don't like how 40k plays atm, and I have no fantasy opponents because it's not a popular game where I play. They play mostly Malifaux (thanks to me), 40k, historicals, and Flames of War. So don't assume that just because I'm replying to you I enjoy 40k and think everything is completely okay with GW and their games.

My issue is how you are antagonistic towards people that play a game they like that you don't like. Let people play what they want to play. And remember, even if GW goes under, 40k will still be playable. Their existence doesn't immediately make the game disappear. The rules will still be around, people will still play, and remember a space marine is a space marine is a space marine. They haven't really changed in 10 years or so. So please stop trying to flamebait people that enjoy GW games, because they enjoy 40k and what not just as much as you enjoy Warmahordes.

 Nucflash wrote:
I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW...

Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?

I've been very vocal on this forum and others about a number of mistakes that I feel GW has made. The most recent trade agreement rules are among them, along with finecast, the Black Templar FAQ, and a few others.

I'm not a blind flier of the GW banner, fan-boi, or other cute name.

However, when you, Nucflash, attack other posters, saying they're in need of rescue, brain-washed, and any of the other put-downs and insults you've been flinging continue to do so, you should expect there to be some consequence (from the mods) and push back (from the posters).

You can make anti-GW posts without being a tool, you know.

Nucflash wrote:I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. ?

I believe they call that the internet, a world where one or two people can make all sorts of claims and be seen by the masses. I can claim to be a bitz vendor and have openly said this whole GW issue will not stop me, but I sell other things as well.

Sean_OBrien wrote:To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.

Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.

In fairness I expected you to be the troll in this one as you generally are but for once you aren't... I like this improvement so you get two internet cookies.

I am generally a troll? I think I must have missed those. You might not like what I say - but if I say something, it is almost always based on facts rather than emotional responses...and I never poke the hornets nest, just for the sake or doing so which has always been the definition of a troll.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.

Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.

The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets. And personaly I do not blindly defend the gaming systems I play. If there is something wrong I acknowledge it. If its game-breaking I probably drop the system. But I do not go on a rant on the Internet forums trashing the game. Only Games Workshops games send me into blind rage, and I personaly feel that the frustration and anger towards GW is fueled by the defenders. And that is the main reason I cant just drop the game and move on.

If GWs prices went up 500% over night, I think that some people still would be on these boards defending GWs decision to do so, with teeth and claw. And it is this feeling that brings the frustration level to the point that I start insulting people to get the point across.

This insanity has to stop.. But I think the only way to break the cycle is if people atleast acknowledge, that things are not perfect with GW..

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
I am generally a troll? I think I must have missed those. You might not like what I say - but if I say something, it is almost always based on facts rather than emotional responses...and I never poke the hornets nest, just for the sake or doing so which has always been the definition of a troll.

You are the farthest thing from a troll IMHO. People may disagree, but disagreeing with someone doesn't make them a troll. Your POV, facts and legal perspective always contributes new things to the conversation regardless of position.

nkelsch wrote:

Agree., Maybe I should have worded it better.

I simply do not care for any of the factions or how the models look. The only ones that appealed to me were the Minions as they had some good-looking beastmen which fit in with my 'bestiary' models I collect. I have played the game, I have seen the rules. It just doesn't appeal to me.

I also am an Ork collector which I enjoy converting models... which Warmahordes really doesn't do much and leaves modelers like myself out in the cold.

I do play other games, they are just not other WARGAMES. I like GW orks, I like 40k, I enjoy playing at 40k events and I like collecting models which work in my 40k ork army regardless of manufacturer. I do not need to be educated, bullied, abused to rescued until I change to PP.

I could never play another game of 40k ever again and I would still enjoy collecting, painting and modeling '40k orks'. I buy the models which I want and like the looks of, and I buy what I think are fun to paint. Right now for me, that is mostly Sci-fi orks and Chibi RPG models with a side of fantasy football and cool looking one-off display pieces.

You know, I was just reading your post and finding myself in agreement.

I'm looking at getting into Warmachine. The hardest part I am having in getting myself excited is that, much like Infinity, the factions have too much of a jarring visual aesthetic in that there are very different looks going on.
Right now, I'm torn between a Cygnar force with Caine and gone heavy on Trenchers/light Warjacks with some Rangers (The Trenchers, Rangers, and several of the Light Warjacks appeal to the Guard player in me) and a Retribution force gone heavy on Mage Hunters. Playing the factions as a whole though? They just do not appeal to me since it would end up with such vastly differing visuals.

 Nucflash wrote:

The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..

Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).

 Cruentus wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..

Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).

There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..

 Nucflash wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..

Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).

There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..

Would you like link us to those?

 Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this.

LOL

That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. You must not have been on a lot of other forums. Head onto the blizzard forums and see what you find. You might want to bring an adult or a bodyguard though.

As has been said after your post, most forums either have negativity or very active mods who prune topics. It is the internet; that's how it works.

Linked for naughty words:
http://networkcultures0806792.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/215499488_8pszr-l-2.jpg

 Kanluwen wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

You know, I was just reading your post and finding myself in agreement.

I'm looking at getting into Warmachine. The hardest part I am having in getting myself excited is that, much like Infinity, the factions have too much of a jarring visual aesthetic in that there are very different looks going on.
Right now, I'm torn between a Cygnar force with Caine and gone heavy on Trenchers/light Warjacks with some Rangers (The Trenchers, Rangers, and several of the Light Warjacks appeal to the Guard player in me) and a Retribution force gone heavy on Mage Hunters. Playing the factions as a whole though? They just do not appeal to me since it would end up with such vastly differing visuals.

I have to agree with you on this also. I personaly feel that Privateer Press, could have done a better jobb in the design department. The Factions can feel all over the place... And sticking to a more universal theme would have been better from an esthetic point of view.

The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..

 Nucflash wrote:
The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..

Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?

 pretre wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..

Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?

It is, but I've never seen a turn 1 caster kill... I believe such a thing would have to be a hell of a shot/bad play on 1 of the player's parts.

 pretre wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this.

LOL

That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. You must not have been on a lot of other forums. Head onto the blizzard forums and see what you find. You might want to bring an adult or a bodyguard though.

As has been said after your post, most forums either have negativity or very active mods who prune topics. It is the internet; that's how it works.

Linked for naughty words:
http://networkcultures0806792.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/215499488_8pszr-l-2.jpg

We are talking other Table-top games now.. not video games. Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity. Blizzard also has an internet based community.. you have to be online to play the game. For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..

 Nucflash wrote:
Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity.

Not that GW doesn't do things wrong, but they are also the largest table-top gaming company (for what we are talking about). 10% disgruntled GW customers is a lot more than 10% disgruntled PP customers.

For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..

Not really. WOW is no more an 'internet game' than 40k is. You do not need to interact with the blizzard forums to play wow (I never did when I played for quite a while). Same thing with 40k. The type of people who play both games tend to go on the internet and talk to other people though...

Also, as people have said PP trims their forums quite a bit.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..

Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).

There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..

Would you like link us to those?

Both Dakka dakka
Warseer
Musingonminis
Beastsofwar
miniwargaming

And many others have independent PP forums and some of them have forums for other games also....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity.

Not that GW doesn't do things wrong, but they are also the largest table-top gaming company (for what we are talking about). 10% disgruntled GW customers is a lot more than 10% disgruntled PP customers.

For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..

Not really. WOW is no more an 'internet game' than 40k is. You do not need to interact with the blizzard forums to play wow (I never did when I played for quite a while). Same thing with 40k. The type of people who play both games tend to go on the internet and talk to other people though...

Also, as people have said PP trims their forums quite a bit.

Yes I do understand that GW is still big in the states. But excluding my own gaming community, we are not that many, about 20+ people(we do not play GW games).. We rent our own place, that we play at, with 6 tables and terrain etc. Not open to the general public(dont want little kidds running around), so invites only. the 3 places that are open to the public, only one out of three still Play GW games. And the dudes there are getting old and tired.. and they dont seem to be that active these days.. And then we have the GW store, but they just play with the kidds, older people are not welcome there. They have made that clear..

Also there is a big Magic event soon and a big Warmachine/hordes Tournament with around 82 contestants. Nothing on the GW side because nobody cares.

So for me personaly I do not feel that GW is the top dog.. People still play at home and in their garage etc.. But in the general scene and I play 3 places all over town, we do not see that many setting up 40k, and fantasy games. A few years back everyone was playing GW games,, these days not so much..

Isn't Warseer mostly GW fanboys if I recall correctly. Muse on Minis is just a PP Board, so I'm sure they have a similar clientele to the PP forums. MWG has forums dedicated to the games they support in the store, which are GW products, Dark Potential (their game), and Warmahordes, and we don't know if they delete anti-PP or anti-GW thread. And Beasts of War didn't have much of a community when I was last on their, perhaps it's gotten better.

You also have to take into account the number of people on each of those forums and compare them to a website like DakkaDakka.

MoM has less than 1 thousand members, MWG has 12k members, and while Warseer has more members than Dakka, their Warmachine and Hordes sections pales in comparison to the WM/H section on Dakka...

If I could get on Beasts of War I'd give you statistics from them as well.

The problem is that there are anti-PP people on this site. And the mods try not to close down threads unless it goes off topic, because discourse is always a good thing. Every time you see a GW vs PP thread, the anti-PP always talk about the "balls to the wall" player base, the huge shoulder pads, and how PP games aren't cheaper than GW on a model by model basis, etc... etc... etc.. ad infinatum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

*sigh* If these websites have such great PP communities, why don't you go there and darken our doorsteps no more?

 Nucflash wrote:
Yes I do understand that GW is still big in the states.

snip

So for me personaly I do not feel that GW is the top dog.. People still play at home and in their garage etc.. But in the general scene and I play 3 places all over town, we do not see that many setting up 40k, and fantasy games. A few years back everyone was playing GW games,, these days not so much..

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
Yep, US is mostly GW.
Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Summer 2012
#1 Warhammer 40k
#2 Warmachine
#3 Warhammer Fantasy
#4 Hordes
#5 Malifaux

Of course, the issue with your experience would be that the greater Los Angeles metro is bigger than Sweden, so dominance for GW is a bit more important in more populated areas. Not digging on Sweden, but hey...

 Alfndrate wrote:
Isn't Warseer mostly GW fanboys if I recall correctly. Muse on Minis is just a PP Board, so I'm sure they have a similar clientele to the PP forums. MWG has forums dedicated to the games they support in the store, which are GW products, Dark Potential (their game), and Warmahordes, and we don't know if they delete anti-PP or anti-GW thread. And Beasts of War didn't have much of a community when I was last on their, perhaps it's gotten better.

You also have to take into account the number of people on each of those forums and compare them to a website like DakkaDakka.

MoM has less than 1 thousand members, MWG has 12k members, and while Warseer has more members than Dakka, their Warmachine and Hordes sections pales in comparison to the WM/H section on Dakka...

If I could get on Beasts of War I'd give you statistics from them as well.

The problem is that there are anti-PP people on this site. And the mods try not to close down threads unless it goes off topic, because discourse is always a good thing. Every time you see a GW vs PP thread, the anti-PP always talk about the "balls to the wall" player base, the huge shoulder pads, and how PP games aren't cheaper than GW on a model by model basis, etc... etc... etc.. ad infinatum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

*sigh* If these websites have such great PP communities, why don't you go there and darken our doorsteps no more?

I'm all over the place . But your grudge against me is a personal one to be honest. You dont play GW games right? You and I do not have a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Beast of war have about 25k.. and around 2k in the warmachine/hordes section..

And they are not happy at Warseer.. saw atleast 3-4 negative posts on the first page about GW this and GW that.

That GW has become a real problem for many people is important to acknowledge. I personaly feel that they are sabotageing the Table-top industry more then they are contributing at this stage. This is my personal opinion, not facts.

PP is in no way shape or form cheaper then GW, that is a FACT hehe. I dont think anny Table-top game is cheap to be honest. But what you get for your money and how the rules are writen are diffrent. I personaly think(my opinion) that GW has the worst rules.. Why? because they are poorly uppdated and lets face it GW has had more then 2 decades to perfect the rules for W40k, and it is still balanced like crap. If they wanted to make decent rules they would have done it by now. For selling more armies the rules work as intended though heheh

 wowsmash wrote:


Here's another novel idea. How about we purchase from our preferred retailers and people stop trying to be purchase police.

I would love to do that but GW has decided I can only buy from them or tame retail outlets at 200% of what the ROW pays.

This has enormous impact on gamers in my group.

So we buy from the US - 1000s of $$$ in my group alone - because that is where we get value. Savvy NZ and OZ gamers are doing the same which is blunting the GW ROW embargo. The purchase point has shifted from the UK to the US.

IMO when GW release their full financials you'll see that there has been no growth in Asia-Pacific sales and the only consequence was to help Maelstrom's recent bankruptcy - the company's plans were premised on its ROW sales.

The move to restrict resellers and the restriction to domestic sales are in part directed at sales coming from the ROW as the GW games out there have successfully achieved workarounds.

I don't play at GW. I don't play at FLGS (there aren't any). I play at home or at my club , neither of which GW supports. If they did support the local gaming environment I might be more pre-disposed to spending more than token money locally - but at present it is a Mexican standoff (no support, no purchase; no purchase, no support).

So as it stands having a local GW is a more a hindrance to me than a benefit. It provides rationale for the embargo but provides no value whatsoever to my hobby or my hobby experience.

But wait you say, GW brings people into the hobby that could eventually be opponents. Well our local GW refuses to put up posters for local events or to send players to local clubs - "If I do that I lose a customer".

Love the product, not so enamoured on the company.

I know one shouldn't try to force memes, but gak:

 Nucflash wrote:
Internet do not play games with you.

How perfect is that?

Slap a funny picture on it and you're good to go.

 Nucflash wrote:
If GWs prices went up 500% over night, I think that some people still would be on these boards defending GWs decision to do so, with teeth and claw.

And their names would be Kingsley (who’d try and convince us that the prices haven’t gone up), Orktavius (who’d call everyone who disagreed with him an uninformed hater), Zwei (who’d try and convince us that the prices were actually going down) and a few others.

But, in the end, who cares? You can dislike GW and not be a dick about it. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.

Wait, I'm not on the White Knight shortlist anymore? dammit.

But, in the end, who cares? You can dislike GW and not be a dick about it. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.

HERESY!!!

Slightly off topic but iv been curious about it but what is the difference in income earned between similar jobs compared with say the US? Or do you really have to pay double for the same things over there (or is it only on specific items)