Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bullockist wrote:
Interesting read, on the subject of irans nukes , i think they should have one, it might stop countries being so belligerent towards them.

If Pakistan and India can have nukes (two states engaged in hostile behavior almost continiously) , I don't see why Iran can't.

Basically it isn't good when anyone gets the bomb. More countries with the bomb means more chance of one them eventually being used to blow up a city, and that's doubly so when it's an unstable regime, like Pakistan or Iran. Now, Pakistan has the bomb and there's not much we can do about it now, but there's still plenty of scope to stop Iran chasing it.

(I think Iran is close to large scale change atm, and i don't think being aggressive towards them is helping this change. In effect it's doing more harm than good since the nationalistic government is given an enemy which they use to "unite the people". Without an external enemy they would probably invent an internal enemy though .

There's plenty of outrage within Iran that they're hurting the economy in order to chase the bomb. Our policies cut both ways.

Personally, i think Iran is blown all out of proportion as an "evil state" or whatever they get called. They have had a very raw deal in regard to western countries in the past and i think they have a right to be angry, continually trying to bully them, is not helping the situation.

I think the anti-Iran rhetoric is overblown (and just plain comic in a lot of places, especially here on Dakka), but there's no doubting the government is not a good one.

I do agree that Iran's hostility to West is easily explained in recent history. I mean, overthrow someone's democratic government to put in your chosen Shah... and then act surprised when they don't like you? Bizarre. But I don't think any of that means we should pretend that Iran's government is a good or stable one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Please provide proof they’ve intentionally sent drones into Iranian airspace.

Are you gaking me? fething seriously?

RQ-170. It wasn't a small thing. Iran claimed the brought it down with a cyber attack but it probably just developed a malfunction and crashed. Whatever happened, they were so proud of it that they ran a whole bunch of toy versions (including pink ones for girls, my friend managed to get her hands on one, it's awesome).

Anyway, stop building opinions on what you assume might be true. Knowing stuff actually matters. Being ignorant of US drone activity in Iran, then get all huffy about the subject makes no sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Irrelevant. They are still US citizens. Should have bombed Tehran every day with B-52s until they were released.

When citizens of a foreign country that is hostile to your own are found travelling in your country without visas... you're supposed to take them in and ask them what the hell they were doing.

The idea that that course of action would lead straight to bombing runs on civilian centres is absolutely, 100% moonbat crazy. Bonkers.

I mean, I am really honestly thinking Dakka needs to have a special day set aside each year where we all give thanks that Fraz is not, and will never be President.

He'd be cool with Mexico bombing Texas, it's ok.

Yeah, some of Frazzled's political views are so bizarre or ill informed I can't help but feel he's being satirical.

 Byte wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
What if we'd rather just have their stuff too?

I understand that you'r probebly not speaking to me, and double apologies if i misunderstand you, but you just can't take someones stuff, that's stealing.

Or you buy it! Capitalism!

Or you earn it "fairness"

Don't worry. You're all against the wall in the new order. Confess your sins now and the Great Wienie may forgive you. Maybe.

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't worry. You're all against the wall in the new order. Confess your sins now and the Great Wienie may forgive you. Maybe.

Please stop trying to get the thread banned.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't worry. You're all against the wall in the new order. Confess your sins now and the Great Wienie may forgive you. Maybe.

Please stop trying to get the thread banned.

You may be. I'm not. You're not afraid of the Great Wienie are you Lenin? Communists always do end up trying to execute all the evil churchers.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:


Please stop trying to get the thread banned.

You don't "get" Frazzled, do you?

PhantomViper wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:


Please stop trying to get the thread banned.

You don't "get" Frazzled, do you?

To know me is to love me, or die a horrible death in a pit of ravenous badger dogs!


To the topic and to those espousing how communism will free us all. Answer the eternal question - how does a communist state move from its required dictatorship to reorganize society, to its final end state?

 Frazzled wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:


Please stop trying to get the thread banned.

You don't "get" Frazzled, do you?

To know me is to love me, or die a horrible death in a pit of ravenous badger dogs!


To the topic and to those espousing how communism will free us all. Answer the eternal question - how does a communist state move from its required dictatorship to reorganize society, to its final end state?

Ok this is how i would attempt to achieve this.

By obeying the MAJORITY of the people, not the POWERFUL people in society.

Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchuks and the army give up power?

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchuks and the army give up power?

A communist dictatorship is a controdiction, it is impossible to have a communist dictatorship, how can an ideaology were everyone is equal have a dictator?

Communism is technicly Utopia.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchuks and the army give up power?

A communist dictatorship is a controdiction, it is impossible to have a communist dictatorship, how can an ideaology were everyone is equal have a dictator?

Communism is technicly Utopia.

So let me rephrase the question, how do you propose moving from the dictatorship that folks calling themselves communists set up into the true Utopia Communism?

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchuks and the army give up power?

A communist dictatorship is a controdiction, it is impossible to have a communist dictatorship, how can an ideaology were everyone is equal have a dictator?

Communism is technicly Utopia.

OK we'll keep asking the question until someone answers it or admits it can't be done.
The People's Republic of Assholistan is formed after the 14th revolution. Folowing Marx it installs a centralized government to reorganize society, and manage the means of production.
How does The People's Republic of Assholistan realistically move from banana republic to worker's paradise taking into account human nature.


I should be clear (if not before) that, although I am laughing at the concept of communism on earth, itsw utopianism is something that would be heavenly (and reserved for such a place).
So, in other words, it won't work here because people suck. In "another place" it might be just fine...


(this was also a GC favorite when she was about five. Mine too! ).

Therin lies the rub. Communism as a theory is a beautiful thing, but like any system, when you introduce the human element, you introduce problems. Humans are corrupt, greedy, ambitious, and stupid, and we generally mess up everything we touch. Democracy as a theory is also beautiful, but as you can see by a lot of western countries at the minute, a lot of the politicians involved are corrupt, and not in it for the privilege of serving their country. They are in it for money and power.

I genuinely think we'll be going in circles until the computers are smart enough to take over and look after us. Think iain m. Banks' culture novels.

I keep meaning to read those. Are they any good? Which one is preferred as the first book to read?

When weiner dogs form packs in the wild, the heirarchy much resembles a comunist dictatorship.
Then after the great FRazzled has passed over ,a weiner utopia is formed, with free kibble falling from the sky!

Bullockist has taken the first step towards the enlightenment of the Great Wienie. Come, open yourself to hearing the truth of his Bark.

Keep your wienie away from me you perv or i'm telling the Mods you're sexually harassing me! If that doesn't work I'll tell melissa and she will feminist you into the ground.

They are brilliant in my opinion. A good start would be either consider phlebas, player of games, or excession. My personal fave is excession. It's a slow burner, but the last couple of chapters are pretty cool.

Frazz... you're on a roll. "The People's Republic of Assholistan"... so stealing that dude!

I think that technology needs to be way more advanced (think Star Trek) where the basic necessity are easily provided and resource scarcity is minimized before Communism, pick-your-flava-ism, Utopia can be achieved.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchiks and the army give up power?

A communist dictatorship is a contradiction, it is impossible to have a communist dictatorship, how can an ideology were everyone is equal have a dictator?

Communism is technically Utopia.

Correct you are the first person who I have talked at who has made this key point.

Communism fails because a beautiful wonderful ideal cannot be carried out by the people this is why even though capitalism has flaws it is the best system we have available to us.


Weiner Ninja'D

Communism; wonderful idea on paper, never really works in reality. It sort of requires massive amounts of dedication from everyone involved. The moment you have one person who's not working his all for the community and trying to coast by, the model breaks.

For the greater good!

It's a great idea in concept, but people ruin it.

Kind of like every other governing system ever.

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats democracy not communism-and its cute.

I'll ask again. How would a communist state, by necessity a dictatorship, ever move beyond the dictatorship.

AKA whats going to make it do that? Whats going to make the party apparatchuks and the army give up power?

you are making the false assumption that democracy is unmutual to communism. The trick is that a communist system can only function under consensus. You assume that democracy is intrinsically linked to a free market system, which the two together, are diametrically opposed to communism. This is the misconception that pisses me off the most, not because I'm so fething sick of hearing it from "right-wingers" that dictatorship is intrinsically linked to communism. Further, what kind of "democracy" do you live in, where the political system is dominated by two parties which both lie to the public, betray the platform they stand on, and both make miserable decisions when in power? Don't worry, I'm not the pot calling the kettle black: I refuse to acknowledge any difference between the conservatives and the liberals, because the only thing they have done is piss at eachother without actually standing apart on any issue other than a half assed attempt at making it look like they were solving health care problems (by either dedicating more resources, or cutting more funding) or making a half assed attempt at reorganizing the military (by buying hardware that really isn't needed, or paying for garbage that needs to be decommissioned while trying to maintain hundreds of other pieces of equipment that ought have been decommissioned as well...). I don't bother mentioning canada's other political parties, because the green party is a joke and wasted effort, because every vote thrown away there is one that could have been used giving the equally hillarious but stronger NDP party a seat. (personally, i still can't understand how a non-majority of people can vote in such a way that a political party achieves a majority in light of the fact that more people voted for a different political party... but..... okay.... "democracy" at work there I guess...)


my rant aside, to respond to OP

Now any rational discourse on communism will acknowledge these things first:
1.) marxist communism has been tried numerous times, and died, soaked in gasoline, set ablaze and hit with a tactical nuclear genocide before it even got off the ground. The marxist model is a great thought experiment, a wonderful study, but fundamentally flawed.
2.) bakuninian anarchy, which is actually communism, is actually a much better concept, and it's refinement is libertarianism. Not liberalism. Liberalism is a crappy crapsack of crap filled with crap, that has more interest in creating BS policies of creating artificial equalities to the point where it inevitably becomes criminal to be white, but, I digress...
3.) no self-respecting communist will admit that communists have a political agenda to work for until contemporary communists first work out the details of what it is they actually want, codify a new system, and give it a try. Since this is never going to happen because everyone is still in a pissing contest over what marx meant, the most we get is meaningful moral discussion and PhD. topics.
4.) there is only such a thing as equal pay for equal work. If equal pay for all work were true, I would love to have newton's laws of physics apply, and claim that my sitting in a bathroom with a few magazines all day constitutes work....
as the above 4 have not happened, and never will happen even in an academic setting, no rational discourse on communism can ever be had.

Currency can never be abolished, and although we will inevitably reach a point in the future (assuming we don't of course go out in a fantastic self-induced old-fashioned-like-grandma-used-to-make-nuclear-genocide) only the barest minimums ought be free: a cubicle to live in, the required calories to not starve, hydration, sanitation, health care, 1 pair of pants, 7 pairs of underwear and education. Soviets also had to deal with laziness, and they had a brilliant solution: Jail. And food was only initially provided, eventually, if you didn't get off your ass and grow it yourself, you weren't going to eat.Beyond that, since lazyness will abound, there are luxury items and wealth and income and all these things that must exist as motivation, because fundamentally, people are self interested. Even the people that do things to improve the lot of others at personal expense, do it because they are selfish and want to feel good about themselves--these people are after all motivated for some reason in their "selfless" act.

While being pro communist, and annoyed by the ignorant arguments from the right about democracy and dictatorships, I'm actually more pissed off at pro-communists for consistently turning to the teachings of the classic heroes and supporting everything written in Marx's manifesto without exhibiting half an iota of cognitive capacity or understanding the era we are living in and the disparity of social and political problems we deal with. It would be nice if communists could get off of their lazy academic asses, and actually formulate something achievable rather than engaging in verbal pissing contests, amusing though they may be.

While I'm pro commie, I admit I'd rather see everything set to fire rather than see another "people's hero" come around, and I fear that my lack of advancement in badger hound weaponization and long-range deployment may put me at a severe disadvantage when it comes down carving out my own fiefdom from the flanks of that failed attempt, but, fraz, if you need any barons, sign me up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TermiesInARaider wrote:
Communism; wonderful idea on paper, never really works in reality. It sort of requires massive amounts of dedication from everyone involved. The moment you have one person who's not working his all for the community and trying to coast by, the model breaks.

It's called a prison. Except, this particular prison is shaped like a farm. Person either works or starves, so..... this argument doesn't exactly work for proving that communism doesn't work.

 Eggs wrote:
Communism as a theory is a beautiful thing, but like any system, when you introduce the human element, you introduce problems.

Eh, if your theory can't survive contact with reality then its a pretty ugly theory.

Of course, this only really applies to the lay understanding of communism, there are plenty of more complicated takes on that particular collection ideas. And, as I said way up-thread, many of them ape (to a certain degree) the circumstances of the present day West; which was influenced by communism whether or not certain Americans like to admit it.

 poda_t wrote:
Not liberalism. Liberalism is a crappy crapsack of crap filled with crap, that has more interest in creating BS policies of creating artificial equalities to the point where it inevitably becomes criminal to be white, but, I digress...

Wut? The liberal notion of equality is minimal, it does not prescribe any action to the government. Liberalism is about the State's neutrality, the citizen's freedom, and equality in regard to the law, all in respect with the moral pluralism that caracterise our modern societies.

Do not mistake liberalism with what people that get called liberals do, it's not the same thing.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I don't know comrade, I find it a party and fantastic leaders, where every one is the same.

/sarcasm

In all honesty Communism is the perfect form of government, but ever since we are human we screw it up, if we weren't human the system would work, there have been no pure communistic systems. So ever since it cannot be performed correctly it is a bad form of government as our frame of minds would not be able to complete it correctly.

i used to have a shirt that read (like mc donalds but about communism) "the party is over"

 CptJake wrote:

So let me rephrase the question, how do you propose moving from the dictatorship that folks calling themselves communists set up into the true Utopia Communism?

Utopia is an interesting term, as all those based on value are. If you can eliminate all moneyed opposition, shut off contact with the outside world, and create some form of ethic which entails the superiority of your nation*; then you can pretty easily create a (lay) communist utopia. Everyone will have everything they ever want, because most will not want anything other than what the powers that be say is good.

Interestingly, certain Marxist authors (Marcuse) have criticized capitalism on similar grounds.





*Let us not forget "American Exceptionalism" before we start admonishing communist states for such behavior.