Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was wondering this as my local FLGS is closing. He did not say anything more than he was moving to another state but i can't help but wonder does things like kickstarter and direct downloads hurt our FLGS's. This store in general was alot of Pathfinder, DnD, other RPGs, warmachine, and warhammer stuff. Mostly in that order.

On the miniatures front, i can't help but wonder does things like kickstarter affect his bottom line? We, wargamers, are very technically savor and very well connected between ourselves and the companies that manufacturers the products we buy (except with GW, i suppose they are just connected to the warp only). Does something like a mantic kickstarter, wild west exodus, and a reaper bones kickstarter just make it not worthwhile to stock those mini's. If we shell out our money for the kickstarter what is left for the FLGS. One of the biggest investment is the initial purchase and FLGS loose out on that because of the kickstarter. Do you think that FLGS owners are taking that into account when deciding what they stock. You can't really compete at a price point with a manufacturer who discounts things as much as they do for kickstarters.

Second do downloaded PDF, legal ones like codex and pathfinder books, hurt our FLGS. Piezo make the rulebook almost free and a fullfledge PDF penies compared to the printed copies. Same with codexes and other books by all the various RPG companies. So they are cutting out the middle man which is our FLGS. Piezo has every supplement available as an instant download and since almost 75% of the people that game have tablets or smart phones its very convenient for them to keep the books on their electronic devices. But how does this affect the mind of a FLGS owner and what he chooses to carry.

Its fine by me as this is capitalism and you have to compete using what have. In the case of a FLGS its with ability their to have a place a play the games. So in the case by me some people buy books from him instead of from the companies themselves but there are a lot who still just get the pdf's. How far does loyalty go when competing with such extreme price differences.

I am just wondering these things because i always buy stuff that my store can supply. I will pay the extra money because the owner provides an great place to play. The kicker is that I want to try a new game or something and he can't get it. No what do i do? I would try a new game if he had it in stock, say Kings of war instead of Fantasy, but since so many people got the great deals from mantic on the kickstarter that we all knew about what is the incentive for him to stock it?

Just some wondering going around my head. Sorry or the long post but i guess i am just going to miss my store.

Steve

p.s. if i find out he closed because of GW price policy i am going to go ape sh$t.

Honestly it can go either way. I don't carry the in my web store due to the fact I tried and the products didn't sell and the local stores around me have had the same mantic stock from there dredball since it was released. That being said I have heard down by CMON that they sell out like crazy from CMON's kickstarters. The biggest problem is companies such as CMON who seem to be basing their business model off of continuous kickstarters as a pre-order system. In the end it's area dependent but it's certainly not helping a lot of stores. For smaller games and such it is a great way to build a customer bases but for larger companies it's just rather cheesy.

Well it certainly has an impact after all you monthly disposable income IS a zero sum game.

Kickstarters for products tend to hurt when it's dealing with models. The interested people already get their models and such.

As for digital downloads, these do not hurt your local store so long as your download gets you to buy something at the store, such as getting the pathfinder book cheap for pdf and then saying you would really like a physical copy.

Yes, Kickstarter hurts stores.

Theoretically, if it helps to promote the creation of new products, it shouldn't. But it's not being used that way. Its just a cash cow now that lets people sell direct to the customer, and 9 times out of 10, kills the market for the game produced.
(Reaper miniatures is a notable exception).

There are many kickstarter games i could care less about carrying. My version of the game will have less stuff coming with it, and generally at a higher price, and of course, much later down the road. The first rush of sales is gone, and most of the excitement about the game is burnt out. I don't bother ordering them.


PDF versions are killing the sales of books in stores. White Wolf is dead. It used to be the major RPG, now we can't dump what's left a 75% off. They won't bother to even reprint the core rulebooks, just sell them as PDF.

Pathfinder sells well as a big hardcover rulebook. The modules and supplementary material is horrible to carry, and I don't bother. Players download it, and only actually buy the basic book, and sometimes the GM buys the other hardcovers.

Some projects have started to include a retailer level. If this becomes a trend, it could reverse how kickstarter is mostly just a kick in the nuts to your FLGS.

too me the kickstarter thing is such a double edge sword. I think its great for starting something like "a reaper miniature company" but when a company starts using it to release individual products i think its a bit cheesy in some ways. It lets people get funding for something quite easily, TBH, but where do you go from there. Getting funding for 25,000 doesn't seem that hard if the sculpts are good AND what you get is good. But when you use it to expand a line, i think that should be left to the merits of the games and company.

I have friends do a successful kickstarter for a brewery. They got enough to rent a spot and the legal fees required for that. Now, what would be thought of them if they kickstarted the development and production of each individual sort of beer they brewed? It would seem off.

I think with the market getting flooded with new games and models is great and perhaps eventually some games will make it to a warmahorde sort of level and the bad games will go bye bye but still where does that leave the FLGS.

I find the range of games at the stores i visit shrinking while on kickstarter i see so many new ones every month.

I am really looking forward to Wild West Exodus but do you think that they are putting the same effort to get there games into stores as the are trying to get everything promised for the kickstarter done?

What about backing levels on kickstarter for FLGS. Say you kickstart at an 'X' level we supply your store with 'Y'?

Honestly, a lot of things that have seen success on Kickstarter, wouldn't have been in the LGS anyway. Not many want to take risks with ordering stuff from small companies if there isn't already a demand for them.

As much of a fan as I am of Mantic, the whole 'my LGS can't move them' thing was happening before the Kings of War Kickstarter.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Honestly, a lot of things that have seen success on Kickstarter, wouldn't have been in the LGS anyway. Not many want to take risks with ordering stuff from small companies if there isn't already a demand for them.

As much of a fan as I am of Mantic, the whole 'my LGS can't move them' thing was happening before the Kings of War Kickstarter.

What Mike said though Cyp is that he is fine with the smaller companies trying to get off the ground (you, me etc) but for larger ones like Mantic, CMON, etc it's killing a market that they already had a solid population in.

How in hell is a brewery a creative project?

Don't get me wrong, I love beer and I am drinking it right now, but WTF?!?!?

 Empchild wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Honestly, a lot of things that have seen success on Kickstarter, wouldn't have been in the LGS anyway. Not many want to take risks with ordering stuff from small companies if there isn't already a demand for them.

As much of a fan as I am of Mantic, the whole 'my LGS can't move them' thing was happening before the Kings of War Kickstarter.

What Mike said though Cyp is that he is fine with the smaller companies trying to get off the ground (you, me etc) but for larger ones like Mantic, CMON, etc it's killing a market that they already had a solid population in.

Oh I know Mike is cool, he took a risk on us and I appreciate it. But not every LGS owner is Mike (I wish more were like him), and for a number of them saying the word 'Kickstarter' makes them react in the same way as 'I ran over your dog in the parking lot.. twice' no matter who you are.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How in hell is a brewery a creative project?

Don't get me wrong, I love beer and I am drinking it right now, but WTF?!?!?

I saw one for a pizza shop wanting to get a brick oven to make better pizza. The only thing with the Brewery is that they can't legally offer beer as a reward due to federal laws. If they did that then they could get a lovely visit from the ATF as you can only sell beer to registered liquor licenses. Back on topic DEATH TO KICKSTART... I mean ya MODELS!!!!

steve2112 wrote:
I was wondering this as my local FLGS is closing. He did not say anything more than he was moving to another state but i can't help but wonder does things like kickstarter and direct downloads hurt our FLGS's. This store in general was alot of Pathfinder, DnD, other RPGs, warmachine, and warhammer stuff. Mostly in that order.

On the miniatures front, i can't help but wonder does things like kickstarter affect his bottom line? We, wargamers, are very technically savor and very well connected between ourselves and the companies that manufacturers the products we buy (except with GW, i suppose they are just connected to the warp only). Does something like a mantic kickstarter, wild west exodus, and a reaper bones kickstarter just make it not worthwhile to stock those mini's. If we shell out our money for the kickstarter what is left for the FLGS. One of the biggest investment is the initial purchase and FLGS loose out on that because of the kickstarter. Do you think that FLGS owners are taking that into account when deciding what they stock. You can't really compete at a price point with a manufacturer who discounts things as much as they do for kickstarters.

Second do downloaded PDF, legal ones like codex and pathfinder books, hurt our FLGS. Piezo make the rulebook almost free and a fullfledge PDF penies compared to the printed copies. Same with codexes and other books by all the various RPG companies. So they are cutting out the middle man which is our FLGS. Piezo has every supplement available as an instant download and since almost 75% of the people that game have tablets or smart phones its very convenient for them to keep the books on their electronic devices. But how does this affect the mind of a FLGS owner and what he chooses to carry.

Its fine by me as this is capitalism and you have to compete using what have. In the case of a FLGS its with ability their to have a place a play the games. So in the case by me some people buy books from him instead of from the companies themselves but there are a lot who still just get the pdf's. How far does loyalty go when competing with such extreme price differences.

I am just wondering these things because i always buy stuff that my store can supply. I will pay the extra money because the owner provides an great place to play. The kicker is that I want to try a new game or something and he can't get it. No what do i do? I would try a new game if he had it in stock, say Kings of war instead of Fantasy, but since so many people got the great deals from mantic on the kickstarter that we all knew about what is the incentive for him to stock it?

Just some wondering going around my head. Sorry or the long post but i guess i am just going to miss my store.

Steve

p.s. if i find out he closed because of GW price policy i am going to go ape sh$t.

It's no joke trying to run a Game Store these days. Much the same as your local recordstore, the FLGS is in the same boat.

Kickstarter isn't helping them, that is for sure, anymore then the Internet. These larger companies arn't doing them any favors, and then there is the oddball nature of so called distributors.

I have heard the excuse of- "My distributor doesn't carry it..." more times the I've cared to.

Back in the old day of yore, you could go in and swing a bat and hit 10 people, at least. Much the same as your local comic shop, you lose the indies, you get caught up in the specifics.

Of course it doesn't help when one of the so called FLGS's got crushed for selling dope out of it.

Point here being KS is one of many issues that game stores need to compete with on a day in day out basis. If you have no community, your game store dies a bloody death of a thousand cuts.

Dear lord Grot what kind of gaming store did you play out of?

at the brewery the beer is free by the way. Its not a bar it is brewery to make beer to sell to bars. They sell pint glasses and let you do a free tasting. Thats typical of how breweries do tasting in the NY and Long Island area.

I was equating the beer to miniature in the way of a manufacturer(mantic, mini, brewer) to the product(minis, beer).

It just seems to me that by having kickstartes for wargaming and these downloads of pdfs so cheap that we are destroying our FLGS.

Now that might be fine if the USA started to more to a club based gaming situation like what i understand they have in england and those other countries over the ocean.

How long can a FLGS survive on people downloading a pdf from the manufacturer and only buying a soda and some skittles when they come in and play.

I am not saying that either way is 100% right its just i was thinking about this the other day and wondering how does a FLGS stay afloat when the stuff they sell is cheaper somewhere else.

Are manufacturers right or wrong for doing kickstarters in the fashion that they do? Are they more responsible to the game stores to sell their product or do cut them out and sell right to us through a kickstarter or direct from the source where they have so much more headroom on prices. Is it a different sort of evil along the lines of some of GW's practices?

thoughts?

Grot you're in Lexington right? Which store was that, I didn't hear anything about it?

 Empchild wrote:
Dear lord Grot what kind of gaming store did you play out of?

Many different ones in several different states. New York, Virginia, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Maryland, then the other stores in states I visited, such as in Colorado, Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, Iowa- Illinois ... etc.etc. (My job had me moving around a lot more in the past , in which I ended up working in Fayetteville NC after being away for two years in Europe/ Iraq.)

That particular store that was selling the dope, I was in Italy when that happened, and I got the story second hand from one of my old mates. It dealt a blow to the other stores, based on guilt by assoceation. Game stores to game stores, the gamers up there are pretty tight, so they all know of or know each other and go to different stores there for different reasons. Some got caught up, some didn't, but the situation messed over a lot of players/ customers of the shops by breeding paranoia and innuendo.

Gaming in location, Game Deals, Paint and Play.... even some for tournies. You couldn't get a total package in 1 store, so that pushed people around a lot more then it should, so it pushed gaming around the Post, and outer limits of the areas, even so far as pushing people to go out to Charlotte, or Raleigh Durahm.

In Europe, it is a different animal. For example In Vicienza, they had a store there that had multi platform gaming, and comics, books, etc. In the old city, they have a good market established being located along in between around five or six schools nearby, so there is no lack of players, but the pricing is what got them by the short hairs. Good for spreading out the choices, but not really centered- so they didn't get tied down and get caught when game companies fell off the map.

I'll defer to the other countries for thier take, but they have it better in some ways there, we have it better in others here.

Lately, my biggest issue in the Game Store department has been too much going on, too far away from FLGS, so I'm in the middle of reevaluating my gaming and other priorities.

I do like that idea of the brewery,though. Reminds me of a place I used to play at up in Syracuse NY right to Altered States, back in the day they had a slamming Italian place right next door .

Same concept, though.

Since we're talking about KS projects and LFGS, how is DreamForge doing with selling their stuff through brick & mortars? I know some of the web stores stock their stuff but I've not seen it on shelves in my area.

started to see some FLGS actually start backing kickstarters at a high level (to get x number of copies) that they then on-sell to customers, treating the extra rewards as collectors items or whatever.

Doesn't really harm anything.

Dreadball sold roughly one print run as part of the kickstarter, and since then it has sold a further two print runs of the game through retail.

So, there you have at least twice as many sales vis FLGS compared to kickstarter.

If a store can't sell something, they're not bothering to promote it. Too many gaming stores just want to be able to throw stuff on a shelf and expect it to sell... it takes a little work to get traction with non-GW systems.

I think it would be ill-advised to simply assume that all KS's have the same effect upon local gaming stores or the industry as a whole.

I saw that Dreadball had a retailers level in the kickstarter.
I didn't look too hard, but it was a sales pack at retailer prices, as part of the main thing.
I can't see that that would hurt the FLGS, apart from buying into an unknown product from the start.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Doesn't really harm anything.

Dreadball sold roughly one print run as part of the kickstarter, and since then it has sold a further two print runs of the game through retail.

So, there you have at least twice as many sales vis FLGS compared to kickstarter.

If a store can't sell something, they're not bothering to promote it. Too many gaming stores just want to be able to throw stuff on a shelf and expect it to sell... it takes a little work to get traction with non-GW systems.

But FLGS have explicitly shown it DOES harm them no matter what your spin says.

Just because they can sell to people who missed the kickstarter weeks or months after, doesn't mean the KS hasn't sucked up all the money in the room, or at least a good portion of it.

I can't get anyone to play Dreadball in my area because none of the stores carry mantic because it is so unfriendly to FLGS. Why should I wait until retail to buy 8 dreadball figures when I am explicitly incentivized to pay Mantic during their Kickstarter and receive bonus figures for half the price? It is not just that I can get them way early, but I actually get MORE stuff by avoiding retail. It is not like the KS grew the retail boxed sets to help FLGS get a better quality boxed set to sell better.

And it is not like this was a one time thing, now the customer base explicitly knows they can get models first, cheaper, and freebies via Kickstarter and there is zero reason to wait except to support FLGS. Unlike GW where I am possibly losing just 20% discount, I am actually losing start players, freebies, multiple models per box, exclusives and other things which never make it to retail. You can't get traction when the next KS with Mantic coming by with thier hand out begging for money is only ever 2 months away.

No FLGS near me carry any KS products because they simply don't sell and people who wanted them KSed them. No one plays or buys Mantic products period in FLGS anywhere near me. It is not 'the fault' of a FLGS for not promoting it right, it is the fact that the FLGS can never compete with the deep discounts, exclusives and early delivery of the KS and Mantic is perfectly happy cutting FLGS out of the supply chain and going to a direct delivery model because they don't actually expect or care if their games are played in stores as their two core games are nothing but GW stand-in proxies so they leech off the established 40k/fantasy playerbase set up by FLGS. A perpetual KS model is selfish and starves FLGS of sales much worse than PPs supply problems and GWs trade partner issues.

Edit: If GW went to a model where they gave everyone a chance to buy from GW weeks earlier than FLS, get 16 models per box instead of 8, get a 30% discount and give them a free character for every order over 100$ and then allowed FLGS to sell the original boxes for FULL MSRP and only have 8 models per box and no character, People would declare GW the anti-christ. But when Mantic does it, the FLGS isn't "trying hard enough"?

I certainly think that some KS hurt FLGS. However, as was mentioned above, there are different sorts of KS. Some are from small companies trying to get a start. Others are not. More importantly, some are for relatively complete games, like Dreadball, and others simply get you started in a larger game. If the KS gives you all you need, then it really hurts FLGS. However, if the KS is used to help launch a new range of miniatures and game then it is not quite as harmful.

You need a customer base, and plastics to really compete with GW. (Most people play 40k because it is easy to find a game, rather than its game balance.) I am surprised that more companies have not looked to KS to build them upto that level. It looks like Prodos games is trying to do this with their remake of Warzone.

That is what i am seeing in regards to why buy from a FLGS except for loyalty. We are so attuned to our industry and that is evident thorugh the massive success of manufacturers selling directly to consumers through kickstarter and through there own website. What incentive is there to go the FLGS except to play.

For me the 20% off of GW stuff is a discount that i like from my FLGS. Take that discount away i either would buy online and pick up maybe only something every once in awhile at the FLGS. The price for our hobby is high and i have a limited budget.

I think that we are really at the end phase of the FLGS in the US. So much is against those guys ranging from the leader in the industry, GW, being stupid and kickstarter/direct to consumer sales from the manufacturers infringing on the local store from another direction.

Where do they go from there? You might actual have to have a business model that takes away from the gaming aspect and bring in something that can make more money. Personally i am looking forward to a full bar/gaming store And if you do do something that is half game store half something else then really the game side will get diluted until its just a sham to what it used to be.

i agree an disagree with mikhaila, if it is a starting business then kickstarter is a great vehicle to add a new supplier to the retailer, if a kickstarter is used by a established company to circumvent the LGS then it is bad.

 Breotan wrote:
Since we're talking about KS projects and LFGS, how is DreamForge doing with selling their stuff through brick & mortars? I know some of the web stores stock their stuff but I've not seen it on shelves in my area.

dreamforge is stocked at my FLGS, most of the regulars had no idea there was a kickstarter for it and were also pretty shocked / happy to have me give them more info on the game and the future plans for another KS for the 2nd race and core game set

I think it's being stocked locally here in Minneapolis too. At the FFG Event Center, though I could be wrong.

Honestly, the whole thing reeks of entitlement of the FLGS and also the supposition that people are actually using the FLGS as a place to play. In my local area, all the shops are either crapholes with no stock, big stores with no stock who charge for events, or a well stocked shop run by a bigoted Ayn Rand fanboy who has personally slandered me in the past. Why should any of those places get my gaming dollars? If I'm paying to play someplace directly, I don't see why I should be paying twice by buying stuff that's 20% overpriced on top of paying for events. A lot of this comes down to the idea that if a hobby shop sets up in an area, they feel entitled to skim profit off the gamers in the area simply by being the only available place around, versus actually providing some benefit to the local players. Personally, I play at a clubhouse I directly pay for, and go to a few events like tournaments at various cons. Shops would actually have to provide me some sort of value (be it a discount, tournaments, or a decent stable community) to get me to spend money there.

Kickstarter again cuts the middleman out, and TBQH that's a good thing. Clubs are honestly the way of the future considering how bad distributors have gotten over time. Every time I've gone down to the local hobby shop (when I was still playing there) to get some small market figures (Mantic, Crocodile, even some of the more odd Reaper figs) the answer has always been the same--"Can't get it from the distributor". Again, what service is really being provided to me if not only is everything 20% overpriced, but I can't even get decent 3rd party figures? And complaining about Mantic as being a parasite as done above is ridiculous. Does GW have special rights on elves, dwarves, and undead now that they are the big player? Mantic's warpath stuff is just space dwarves, elves, humans, orcs, and rats. Sure you can use it for 40K, but it doesn't really match up with any 40K lines except for GW's generic space humans and orcs. If GW is making a generic enough game that it can be ripped off via non-IPed stuff, there's no reason to complain when someone actually undercuts them. It would be like complaining that people make cheaper version of ww2 figures are just being parasites off of Flames of War.

Fact: The world changes. Product design, manufacturing and distribution are all evolving. To think you can exist as a link anywhere in that chain and not evolve/adjust or change your business model in some way is silly. It isn't just the gaming industry either.

I kind of agree with most of the things that everyone have said in a lot of ways. I do think that game clubs will have to be the thing of the future for people that want to play with a group large than a basement could contain. I think that is a great thing. I would prefer that in many respects over a game store itself.

One thing that must really hurt FLGS is the fact that our hobby consist of many games that each have hundreds if not thousands of different items per game. I couldn't imagine how hard and costly it is to maintain that sort of inventory.

Maybe i am getting old and remembering how it was when i got into eveything versus what is now. But it is different times and all.