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More a case of specific over general.

Frankly it's a mess. From a HWIPI standpoint I'd say pinpoint isthe only thing allowing you to modify Snap Shot BS. But I agree, per the rulebook FAQ, pinpoint doesnt work per RAW. Or at least, causes a direct conflict you'd be forced to houserule or roll off.

 Super Ready wrote:
Frankly it's a mess. From a HWIPI standpoint I'd say pinpoint isthe only thing allowing you to modify Snap Shot BS. But I agree, per the rulebook FAQ, pinpoint doesnt work per RAW. Or at least, causes a direct conflict you'd be forced to houserule or roll off.

Well if we're talking about the basic ability for pinpoint to modify the snap shot BS, then the rules are not in conflict.

The Tau markerlight rules are specific that they can allow the BS of snap shots and overwatch to be improved and that is specific enough to override everything that exists to this point.

People often forget that EVERY rule written has an invisible 'unless specified otherwise' tacked onto the front of it.

It doesn't matter what any other (non-markerlight related) FAQ says or what the rulebook says at this point because the markerlight rule goes out of its way to specify that it works, so it does.

The ONLY way a FAQ could now cancel the markerlights ability to boost snap shot BS would be to specifically say that they (markerlights) do not work as printed in the codex. That is the only case where the FAQ would be more specific than what the codex says.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

I believe this is slightly inaccurate, and a common misconception, Snap Shots don't NEED to be resolved at BS1 to be Snap Shots, they simply need to count the firing model's ballistic skill as 1, RAW that is what firing Snap Shots does.

The key thing with Seekers (fired by markerlight), is that they never reference any models Ballistic Skill, they just "are resolved at BS5". It doesn't matter what the model with the Seeker Missiles BS is, nor does it matter what it is counting as, because the Seeker Missile rules make abundantly clear that you don't reference that, you just resolve the shot at the provided BS value.

I am of the mind the RAW, both in the old codex, and in this one, supports Seeker Missiles launched by Markerlight using the specified BS5 against Flyers, regardless of Skyfire and/or Hard to Hit.

I'm much more concerned with trying to figure out the likely way it will actually get played, personally.

And given that GW has consistently ruled that when we're talking about a set BS vs. a snap shot, that the snap shot wins out up to this point (including the last FAQ answering that exact question for seeker missiles), I think its highly unlikely that we will see the BS5 take precedence over the snap shot. Personally I'm fairly confident about that so that's how I'll play.

But the bigger question in my mind (as I've said a few times) is when the firing model also has Skyfire...I have a harder time predicting what GW will likely rule there (if they do), but my gut tells me that you'd revert back to using the model's BS in that instance.

 yakface wrote:


But the bigger question in my mind (as I've said a few times) is when the firing model also has Skyfire...I have a harder time predicting what GW will likely rule there (if they do), but my gut tells me that you'd revert back to using the model's BS in that instance.

The model (ie Skyray) is still the one shooting the seeker even though a markerlight was used to boost the said seeker, so no reason to think that a markerlight boosted seeker from a skyray (or broadside) would not gain the effects of skyfire.

shock_at wrote:
The model (ie Skyray) is still the one shooting the seeker even though a markerlight was used to boost the said seeker, so no reason to think that a markerlight boosted seeker from a skyray (or broadside) would not gain the effects of skyfire.

The issue becomes, does it use the Skyray's BS (Skyfire specifies that the model fires using it's normal BS) or does it use the BS5 of the Markerlight rules.

Use the sky ray as an example. Has seekers missiles, has sky fire , has networked marker lights. Marker lights fire at normal bs, then if both have hit pull one each for the 2 seekers you fire and its bs 5.

I don't like the skyray example. Seeker missile can be fired without markerlights now. So a stationary skyray could fire two network markerlights, buff its own BS to 5 if one hit. Then fire all six missiles at the offending flyer.

But if it moved a hair's breath, it only gets to fire one weapon and cry at the rest firing at snap shots. Whammy.

Seekers fire at BS5 at flyers if they are used as a result of a Markerlight Token, because the codex specifically says they are resolved at BS5. If they are fired normally, they fire like any other weapon, so on a non-skyfire vehicle they will be snap shots.

barnowl wrote:
Big Change is that they now DO effect the VEHICLE that fire them and force it to fire all weapons at that target like a normal shooting attack.

This is the important thing. Now a vehicle has to choose to fire at something, THEN use the markerlight tokens to fire off a seeker. So, in practical use, you're going to see a lot less seeker missiles now.

Seeker mIssile rule:
-Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full BS.

I am confused over this rule as well. Is it refering to the vehicle with the Seeker Missile? How does it work?

Luford wrote:
Seeker mIssile rule:
-Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at its full BS.

I am confused over this rule as well. Is it refering to the vehicle with the Seeker Missile? How does it work?

Its really simple, the seeker missiles are basically hunter killer missiles that can be fired like a regular weapon without the need for makerlights, however if you expend a makerlight to fire one, it gains multiple buffs including it not counting towards the number of weapons that vehicle could of shot that turn.

Basically unlike the 4th ed book, seekers are no longer called by makerlights, instead a vehicle that has a seeker can expend a marker to shoot it with a buff.

It kinda makes sense tho, as you Snap shot the MARKER itself, and then the missile home in on the marker then hitting the flyer at BS5, the marker light says the missile is resolved at BS5 as long as you use a marker.

Just a note that you must have a marker on it tho, and you remove one for every shot.

Dracoknight wrote:
It kinda makes sense tho, as you Snap shot the MARKER itself, and then the missile home in on the marker then hitting the flyer at BS5, the marker light says the missile is resolved at BS5 as long as you use a marker.

Just a note that you must have a marker on it tho, and you remove one for every shot.

I haven't been able to look at the new Tau codex. Assuming that the wording is at least similar to the wording in the old Tau codex (resolved at BS5) then I am forced to assume that the question in the FAQ regarding Seeker Missiles and Hard To Hit (while not in the new FAQ) would stay the same if GW ever FAQs it. That being said, if the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has the Skyfire special rule then there would be no issue. And regarding this, especially seeing as how my brother has no new models, I would be perfectly fine letting them hit using BS5.

 Happyjew wrote:

I haven't been able to look at the new Tau codex. Assuming that the wording is at least similar to the wording in the old Tau codex (resolved at BS5) then I am forced to assume that the question in the FAQ regarding Seeker Missiles and Hard To Hit (while not in the new FAQ) would stay the same if GW ever FAQs it. That being said, if the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has the Skyfire special rule then there would be no issue. And regarding this, especially seeing as how my brother has no new models, I would be perfectly fine letting them hit using BS5.

This is where I think the biggest question really lies (and none of it is really rules-based)...if the firing model has Skyfire and is launching a seeker using a markerlight, does the Skyfire rule mean they use the firing model's BS or the BS5 from the markerlight rule?

Honestly, I hope that GW totally reverses their previous FAQ ruling on the matter entirely regarding markerlights, seeker missiles and zooming flyers. Because IMHO, you've already gone through the snap shot process to hit the flyer with a markerlight, so really I think they should make a clear exception for the BS5 in this particular case as you've already 'paid the snap shot price' once to hit the flyer with the markerlight.

I always thought it was a bad ruling for that reason, and I hope they've changed their mind on it now (and they go out of their way to express that in a FAQ).

 yakface wrote:
I always thought it was a bad ruling for that reason, and I hope they've changed their mind on it now (and they go out of their way to express that in a FAQ).

This I can agree with whole-heartedly. That ruling is right up there with Nids not being able to manually fire weapons (though I can understand the fluff behind that one) and embarked Farseers not being able to use Farseer powers.

Do the new fliers have marker lights?

If so there's no "Hard to Hit" price paid - throw one light and spam seekers from your ground troops.

rigeld2 wrote:
Do the new fliers have marker lights?

If so there's no "Hard to Hit" price paid - throw one light and spam seekers from your ground troops.

The bomber has one networked markerlight (so it can even fire his own seekers), but the Skyray can also fire using Skyfire and also has 2 networked markerlights as well.

But that's not the point. If a normal vehicle has skyfire, then it uses its normal BS to hit a zooming flyer, which is the same as the Sky Ray firing his markerlights using Skyfire at a zooming flyer.

So once those hits are scored (using his BS), it has still paid the 'snap shot' price (its just that price is circumvented by the Skyfire rule), and the seeker missiles launched using that markerlight *should* therefore benefit from being BS5 if GW had any sense (which wasn't apparent in their previous ruling on the matter).


You don't seem to have the codex, so it seems like you might be misinterpreting the argument going on here a bit. There is NO QUESTION that either a Sky Ray using Skyfire or a Sun Shark Bomber firing its markerlights uses its normal BS when firing its markerlights at zooming flyers. The problem is that per the markerlight rules, those seekers are then 'resolved at BS5', which per the previous GW FAQ (and their existing FAQ rulings regarding other abilities that provide 'set' BS values during a shooting attack) the snap shot rules for zooming flyers would still seem to override this BS5 from the markerlight rules.

However, these seekers are also being fired by vehicles that have Skyfire (the Sky Ray & Sun Shark)...and that leaves a grey area because seekers launched via markerlight are 'resolved at BS5' and not the model's own BS...so nobody knows where that situation leaves us.

• Does the snap shot restriction take precedence and the shots are resolved at BS1 (plus any markerlight BS boosts added to the shot)?
• Does the shot resolve at the stated BS5 (because the model has Skyfire)?
• Or does the shot default back to the model's own BS (because they have skyfire) plus any markerlight BS boosts added to the shot?


It needs to be FAQ'd because there is no clear way to play.

The Tau Codex says that Markerlights buff the BS of Snap fire and overwatch. Assuming you get enough hits you can still hit it at BS 5.

The codex says the Markerlight hits at BS5. They knew they had an issue with skyfire and seeker missiles last issue. So, if they didn't call it out specifically, (I.E. They hit at snap fire even with markerlight) then it probably means that they hit at BS 5.

This seems okay to me. Here's the reason, the Codex also says this of the 'Seeker' ability:
For each markerlight counter expended on this ability the unit immediately fires a single Seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire.'

Then it says: "Must be fired at the same target as the vehicles' other weapons.'

Weirdly, this implies, that ONLY vehicles with networked Markerlights can fire them. It doesn't say that OTHER squads can summon them. This is clearly not their intention.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
The Tau Codex says that Markerlights buff the BS of Snap fire and overwatch. Assuming you get enough hits you can still hit it at BS 5.

The codex says the Markerlight hits at BS5. They knew they had an issue with skyfire and seeker missiles last issue. So, if they didn't call it out specifically, (I.E. They hit at snap fire even with markerlight) then it probably means that they hit at BS 5.

This seems okay to me. Here's the reason, the Codex also says this of the 'Seeker' ability:
For each markerlight counter expended on this ability the unit immediately fires a single Seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire.'

Then it says: "Must be fired at the same target as the vehicles' other weapons.'

Weirdly, this implies, that ONLY vehicles with networked Markerlights can fire them. It doesn't say that OTHER squads can summon them. This is clearly not their intention.

It doesn't imply that at all. Only that only vehicles with Seeker Missiles may expend counters to fire Seeker Missiles. How the counter got there is irrelevant. This is different from the last codex, but causes far fewer issues because it's now crystal clear who is firing the Seeker Missile, the model that has it is.

Chrysis wrote:

It doesn't imply that at all. Only that only vehicles with Seeker Missiles may expend counters to fire Seeker Missiles. How the counter got there is irrelevant. This is different from the last codex, but causes far fewer issues because it's now crystal clear who is firing the Seeker Missile, the model that has it is.

Agreed 100%. If there are 6 markerlight tokens on an enemy unit and I go to fire my Sky Ray, I can expend all 6 of those tokens to have my Sky Ray fire all 6 Seekers (regardless of how far I moved) at BS5. It matters not at all how those markerlight tokens got on the enemy unit in the first place.

Seeker - Markerlight cost: 1

For each used markerlight you use you fire a missile in addition to any other weapons it is premitted to fire.

- does not need LOS
- must be fired at the same target as the other weapons
- Is resolved at BS 5
- Ignores cover
- does not reduce the number of weapons the vehicle can fire at full BS
- Does count toward the max 2 seekers for flyers.

( also, you cant benefit from the markerlights because you have to use the markers BEFORE the shooting, unless its the special ones, so i guess they are fired before the shooting phase, but after the movement phase of a unit )

As of yet, the FAQ is older than the Codex, so shouldnt the rules of the Codex take proceedure?

That's my opinion. That old FAQ is null and void. The new FAQ just changes who can take missile drones.

So the skyray has to stay motionless so it can fire more than 2 missiles at a flyer? Doesn't sound right to me but RAW I guess :(

 Thranriel wrote:
So the skyray has to stay motionless so it can fire more than 2 missiles at a flyer? Doesn't sound right to me but RAW I guess :(

No its a rule that flyers can only shoot 2 Seeker missiles, it says nothing that a skyray cant fire all of its missiles at once.

Ninja'd :(

Added note: you CAN "Dumbfire" seeker missiles, but thats on the users own BS and have none of the advantages the markerlights give.

So a skyray can either mark it for BS5 or use its own BS4 to shoot at flyers with his skyfire rules.

HA I was about to call you a fool dracoknight, but seeing as the seeker missile not only has a profile but there is no restriction to them needing to be fired by markerlights, now you can sit with a skyray and fire all the missiles and it's markers and it's other system!

So, for 3 markerlight hits, I can fire 6 bs 5 seeker missiles that ignore cover plus 2 marker lights and a SMS or burst cannon system. Holy balls.

Thranriel wrote:So the skyray has to stay motionless so it can fire more than 2 missiles at a flyer? Doesn't sound right to me but RAW I guess :(

Dracoknight wrote:Seeker - Markerlight cost: 1
- does not reduce the number of weapons the vehicle can fire at full BS

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
So, for 3 markerlight hits, I can fire 6 bs 5 seeker missiles that ignore cover plus 2 marker lights and a SMS or burst cannon system. Holy balls.

Careful now. There is currently absolutely no reason to take BCs on your Hammerhead or Skyray. SMS is exactly the same only with longer range and ignores cover. They cost the same.

Can it overwatch with a heavy weapon?

I think so, but there has to be a reason why they are the same.

I think if the skyray moves it can fire it's two markerlights and use those two markerlights to fire seeker missiles. It has to snap fire the rest.

Seeker missiles only don't count towards the weapon's loadout when they're fired because of Markerlights. That's how I'm reading it.

Honestly though, I'd just dumb fire a few Seeker missiles from the skyray and use it's markerlight hits to aid other units. Like missile pod suits or something.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
I think if the skyray moves it can fire it's two markerlights and use those two markerlights to fire seeker missiles. It has to snap fire the rest.

Seeker missiles only don't count towards the weapon's loadout when they're fired because of Markerlights. That's how I'm reading it.

Honestly though, I'd just dumb fire a few Seeker missiles from the skyray and use it's markerlight hits to aid other units. Like missile pod suits or something.

There seems to be some real confusion going on here about how Sky Rays (and vehicles in general) function in 6th edition.

The Sky Ray technically starts the game with 9 different weapons (6 seekers, 2 networked markerlights & a twin-linked SMS).

In 6th edition, a vehicle can generally fire all of its weapons (flyers are limited to firing no more than 2 missiles a turn, but regular vehicles are not). The only thing that changes when a vehicle moves is how many of its weapons get to fire using its full BS and how many fire as snap shots.

So if a Sky Ray moves 6", then it can fire a SINGLE weapon at full BS. That can be a markerlight, one seeker fired at the vehicle's full BS, or the SMS. The rest of its weapons can still be fired as well, but these would be fired using snap shots (BS1). In addition, like all units, all of these weapons have to be fired at the same enemy target (there is no splitting fire anymore for Tau vehicles).

Now, if the enemy unit that the Sky Ray is firing at already has markerlights counters on it, then these could be expended by the Sky Ray to launch seeker missiles at BS5. These are on top of the number of weapons that the Sky Ray is able to fire using its full BS.

The networked markerlights from the Sky Ray do also allow the Sky Ray to launch its own Seekers at BS5, but if you move the Sky Ray, you're only going to be able to fire one markerlight at full BS (the other one will have to snap shot), so generally speaking if you're moving the Sky Ray at all, then you'll be needing additional markerlight support from other units if you're looking to fire more than one Seeker from the Sky Ray at a BS4 or above.