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History lesson:

I think it was the 4th Ed. BGB that explicitly stated that models entered combat with enough ammunition for the battle (length of the game).

Also it was noted that an Ork fires off a magazine's worth of ammo every shooting phase whereas a SM fires a couple of shots but still manages to hit twice as often.

So the norm would be every weapon has enough shots (andor at least one) for the game, and the exception would be limited ammo and/or 1 shot onlys which we have lots o' example: Combi-Bolters, death strikes missiles, Burna bombs.

In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

But seriously, it seems to me that the rules for the bomb generator can be easily interpreted as being perfectly functional.

 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

But seriously, it seems to me that the rules for the bomb generator can be easily interpreted as being perfectly functional.

Interpreted as such? Of course it can. Nobody is saying that they would not allow their opponent to start with a bomb (HYWPI) They are claiming that the bomber does not currently start with a bomb (RAW).

 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

If this claim had any basis in rules I'd agree with you.
It doesn't.

 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.

RAW and RAI aside, by this logic no weapon can fire because it doesnt specifically state that its starts with an ammunition source... Bottom line? stop trying to read into things and play the damn game... more confusing things can be argued on YMDC rather than people bellyaching about how this weapon doesnt start with ammo, therefore cant shoot...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
RAW and RAI aside, by this logic no weapon can fire because it doesnt specifically state that its starts with an ammunition source...

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

Bottom line? stop trying to read into things and play the damn game... more confusing things can be argued on YMDC rather than people bellyaching about how this weapon doesnt start with ammo, therefore cant shoot...

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.

No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.

Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game... if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.

really? then tell me how the a bolter works without a projectile? in the entry for a bolter it simply says bolter, it doesnt say bolter round, for example like sternguard where it actually describes the ammunition used... with what you are saying, a bolter round is a weapon and therefore seperate from a bolter... meaning the bolter is just a useless gun the person is carrying...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Not true at all.
To make a bombing run you need a bomb. The bomber doesn't start with a bomb, just a bomb generator.
You can't roll for the bomb generator until after you drop a bomb. Something you don't have.

Actual rules there, not straw man assumptions.

The generator isn't a weapon - there's no profile. At least understand the discussion before denigrating everyone participating in the thread.

Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game... if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...

The rules of the game do not require Ammo. ANy mention of ammo anywhere is purly fluff. Special Bolter Rounds for Sternguard are different weapon profiles. There are no rules for ammo.
And the generator is a special rule for generating bombs. It has no weapons profile.
Remember we're talking rules here. No one is suggesting actualy enforcing this in a game. But the rules as they stand, there is no bomb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
No idea where this talk of ammo is coming from. The bomb is a weapon. It has it's own weapon profile. It is not amunition for a weapon.
It is a weapon that is one use only. A weapon that the Bomber sadly lacks.

really? then tell me how the a bolter works without a projectile? in the entry for a bolter it simply says bolter, it doesnt say bolter round, for example like sternguard where it actually describes the ammunition used... with what you are saying, a bolter round is a weapon and therefore seperate from a bolter... meaning the bolter is just a useless gun the person is carrying...

You're getting background and fluff horiibly mixed up with rules.
Find a rule for ammunition. There are none.
It's simply not required. We're talking rules remember.

Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

again, with this whole RAW and RAI bull... stop trying to grasp for straws, and just play the bomber...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Yes true at all... by that logic, you'd need bolter rounds to fire a bolter... and since the bolter entry says nothing about bolter rounds, then you cant fire it... maybe, just maybe the GW crew thought we had a little more common sense to figure it out, especially since this isnt the first time GW has released a rulebook

I have permission to make a shooting attack with a shooting weapon.
Bolers have a shooting weapon profile.
I have permission to use a bolter in a shooting attack.

To have permission to make a bombing run, I need a bomb.
Does the bomber have a bomb? Or a bomb generator?

Furthermore, to say that the generator itself is not a weapon/deployment system is absurd... under the wings of a burna-bomba, what are those round things that get dropped on people? are there any other devices under said tau-bomber that can be used to drop bombs? no? ok... then logically the bombs are dropped from said generator, and since it is obvious the "weapon" cannot drop more than one bomb, because it cannot house more than one bomb, then, by extension the space is occupied by a bomb at the beginning of the game...

You just used the word "logically" with regard to a game peopled by walking blue fish men, demons, alien bugs, people who live for millennia...

Read the bombing run rules. Bombing runs are different from normal shooting attacks. So comparing them to a bolter is incorrect.

if you feel differently, then clearly those bolter magazines are empty and we are all wasting our time playing this game...

Cite the rules requirement for ammunition for a normal shooting attacks.
There is a requirement for bombing runs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

No, normal shooting attacks don't require "ammunition".
Bombing runs do.

It's not a weapon because it doesn't have a profile and there's no rule for it calling it a weapon.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
Right and rules as is, no weapon can fire... at all... there being no rules for ammo is the exact argument you are making... since they dont exist we cant play the game... and who said it isnt a weapon? did we ever stop to think that bomb is the generator profile? hence why it can only fire one at a time?

again, with this whole RAW and RAI bull... stop trying to grasp for straws, and just play the bomber...

Read the rules. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Ion Accelerators, and Missile Launchers all have weapon profiles, which is all that is required by the rules in order to fire those weapons. The bomb generator and pulse bombs are two different things. The bomb is not the profile of the generator, it is the profile of the bomb that is dropped. The bomber does not start with a bomb, so it cannot make a bomb. The Generator and pulse bomb are just as separate as a Voidraven and an Implosion Missile.

'' no more bombs can be created, and no more bombing runs can therefore be performed."

To me this just says, do not take this unit. Sure its 1/6 but quite frankly, in a competitive game do you really want to spend points on a unit that might only have 1 shot the whole game?

 Archonate wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:

 Archonate wrote:
You guys, these Pulse bombs are not the same as the single-use missiles. They are fired from a Pulse Bomb GENERATOR.
RAW are that you drop a bomb GENERATED by the Pulse bomb GENERATOR and then test to see if it ran out of power.
The GENERATOR is the device making the attack. Guns don't specify that they have ammo. The bomb generator doesn't need to specify that it has power to start with.

This isn't how 40k rules work. There is no set of rules to describe how events happen in the manner you have portrayed them. Bombing runs use bombs, which are pieces of wargear with weapons profiles.

For any model to use a weapon profile, that profile has to be present or added in some way to their unit entry under wargear.

The pulse generator does not 'fire' a bomb. It is not a weapon, as it has no profile. RAW, it is a wargear with a mechanic that adds a pulse bomb to the bomber's wargear.

To do so, you follow its rules. To follow its rules, you must have a pulse bomb and make a bombing run. The make a bombing run with a pulse bomb, you must have a pulse bomb. Nothing in the rules grants the bomber a pulse bomb before this.

The bomb is not in the vehicle's wargear because it is does not exist until the moment of the bombing run. Almost Check - it exists after a bombing run on a roll of 2+.

It is both produced and dropped at the moment of the bombing run. Not Check - it's produced IMMEDIATELY AFTER.

"Immediately after the Sun Shark makes a bombing run, <- you must make a bombing run
roll a D6. On a score of 2+, another pulse bomb is created <- you must roll and score 2+
and the Sun Shark can make another bombing run later
in the game. On a roll of a 1 , the pulse bomb generator's
power fails - no more bombs can be created, and no more
bombing runs can therefore be performed."

It is "added to the wargear" right before it is dropped, just as it is in subsequent runs (assuming the 2+ roll succeeded.) Not Check, see above

The generator doesn't have a profile because it is not the bomb. This does not mean that its mechanic of producing bombs should be ignored on the first bombing run. Here's where you're mistaken - the wording of the generator specifically states that, AFTER making a bombing run, it gets another bomb on a 2+. To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb. If you do not have any bombs, you cannot make a bombing run, and therefore, cannot produce a bomb. A implies B implies C, A implies C. No A = No C.

The mechanic of this vehicle is obviously not reconciled in the BRB. Maybe rethink your wording of this statement, as it's not making much sense

Perhaps my interpretation is based purely on RAI. You had RAW right up until the point where you began making things up. If the rules do not explicitly state something, that something cannot happen.

"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb." Can someone point out what page of the codex says this? I cannot seem to find it.

I can find this "the wording of the generator specifically states that, AFTER making a bombing run, it gets another bomb on a 2+."

However this does not seem to present a contradiction.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb." Can someone point out what page of the codex says this? I cannot seem to find it..

BRB, pg 81, SPECIAL WEAPON SYSTEMS - Bombs and Bombing Runs: "Some Flyers are armed with bombs..." Is the Bomber armed with a bomb? No. It is armed with a bomb generator which is used after making a bombing run.

The quote you provided does not say this :"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."


So.. we have permission to make a bombing run with the craft and then after such an action is taken we are told that after said run we have permission to roll and see if the generator continues to function.

I still see no conflict.

Edit: The only specific requirement to make a bombing attack on page 81 that I can see is that the flyer must be zooming.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.

This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:The quote you provided does not say this :"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

No, the next sentence does. Perhaps you should read the rule he's describing instead of making assumptions.

Edit: The only specific requirement to make a bombing attack on page 81 that I can see is that the flyer must be zooming.

So did you miss the bolded words? I'll quote them for you.

Page 81 BRB wrote:Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

So you have to have a Bomb to make a Bombing Run.

Monster Rain wrote:This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.

Page 81 BRB. Your turn.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
In other news, Space Marines aren't able to move because they don't have feet listed on their wargear entry.

What page says you need feet in order to move? I can't seem to find it.

This is so easily applicable to your own position I'm shocked that you posted this.

No, it isn't. The rules give models the ability to run regardless of the state of their feet. The rules do NOT allow a model to make a bombing run without being equipped with a bomb. You explicitly have to have a bomb to make a bombing run.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120803140502AAdG64I

TRANSITIVE RELATIONS ARE COOL

UNDERSTANDING THE RULES YOU ARE REFERENCING AND THE GAME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS COOL

COMBINE THE TWO TO ARRIVE AT THE LOGICAL CONCLUSION: GW fethed UP ANOTHER CODEX'S RAW.

"Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs... Bombs can only be used while zooming."

I removed the portion about missiles.

"So you have to have a Bomb to make a Bombing Run."

Is RAI. If I have access to bombs via a Special weapon system then Marv's statement---

> "The key phrase is "another pulse bomb is created"

Stands.

"Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run."

These two lines say two very different things.

"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

The second line is a logical assumption, however it (being the line you referenced) is not written as such.

Also, Capslock is cruise control for cool.

 tomjoad wrote:
This is such a nonissue! It is CLEARLY intended to start with one bomb. ANY tournament FAQ would rule that it starts with one bomb. After decades of GW making this kind of error and it pretty much always being ruled as it was clearly intended to be, what kind of pissant would still argue that, on an issue like this, strict RAW is the right way to roll?

Have you not read threads here before? Even though it listed as "You Make Da Call" very few people do that. They get bogged down in comma placement, word tense and hyphens. Hardly anyone seems to want to make a "call" they just regurgitate what is written with out respect for game play.

Yes, it is evident that it starts with a bomb and the rules are written on how you generate another bomb after the first is used. A learning disabled monkey could see that. The writters did a good job of writting the rules, you have to show an astounding level of willful ignorance to see it any other way.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

"Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs... Bombs can only be used while zooming."

I removed the portion about missiles.

You removed a lot more than that. Like the part I quoted that says you do actually need a bomb.

"Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run."

These two lines say two very different things.

"To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

The second line is a logical assumption, however it (being the line you referenced) is not written as such.

Please explain how you make a bombing run without using a bomb.

Excuse me Rigeld2 but that is incorrect.

The entire Paragraph says:

Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs. Missiles can be used while either hovering or Zooming. Bombs can only be used while Zooming.

I have now added back the portion I removed. Please read the rules before you make statements of that kind.

Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

So far it appears to be an interpretation.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.

I am interested in just such a place. Toss me a PM if you have any suggestions.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Excuse me Rigeld2 but that is incorrect.

The entire Paragraph says:

Flyers have access to two special weapon systems: Missiles and bombs. Missiles can be used while either hovering or Zooming. Bombs can only be used while Zooming.

I have now added back the portion I removed. Please read the rules before you make statements of that kind.

Sorry, I misread. Apologies.

Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

Unlike other weapons, bombs are used during the Flyer's Movement phase, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

So how do you make a Bombing Run? By using a bomb. Do you have to have something to use it? I'll let you answer that.

I'm more interested in how Interceptor drones can fire while attached to the bomber...

Idolator wrote:Have you not read threads here before? Even though it listed as "You Make Da Call" very few people do that. They get bogged down in comma placement, word tense and hyphens. Hardly anyone seems to want to make a "call" they just regurgitate what is written with out respect for game play.

The phrase 'man-eating lion' and 'man, eating lion' are very similar, and yet have completely different meanings. And the third and also similar phrase 'man eating lion' can, ridiculously enough, have the same meaning as either of those first two.

So yes, in a discussion of written text, grammar and punctuation are seen as being reasonably important. That really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Yes, it is evident that it starts with a bomb and the rules are written on how you generate another bomb after the first is used. A learning disabled monkey could see that. The writters did a good job of writting the rules, you have to show an astounding level of willful ignorance to see it any other way.

If you want a frank and HONEST discussion for rules opinions and "call making" this is not the place.

It seems that you have either completely missed the point of YMDC, or have engaged in a certain amount of selective reading. The vast majority of people who argue in favour of strict RAW are more than happy to ignore it when it causes issues in game, and that is often discussed here once the RAW is established.

YMDC is a tremendous resource for rules discussion so long as you can recognise that RAW and HYWPI are not always the same thing.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Also, could you produce the location of this line "To make a bombing run, you must first have a bomb."

It's in the same place as the rule that says you have to have a ranged weapon in order to shoot.

A more relevant quote would be one that allows you to make a bombing run if you don't have a bomb,

I have an entry for the pulse bomb generator telling me that after I make a bombing run I have a chance for the generator to either make "another" bomb or to cease functioning.

It's in the same place as the rule that says you have to have a ranged weapon in order to shoot.

Page 12 did not contain the requested text.

Nominate a unit to shoot: During the shooting phase a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I have an entry for the pulse bomb generator telling me that after I make a bombing run I have a chance for the generator to either make "another" bomb or to cease functioning.

Yes.

Now first you have to make a bombing run, correct? (because it says "after).

Where is the bomb that you use to make a Bombing Run? The first one that is. You're assuming one's there because of the word "another" and I'm sure that's what's intended. Cite the rule that provides one.