Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But Shadowsun has nothing to do with Crisis suit armory at all.

 Crimson wrote:
Flinty, that is just wilfully ignoring what the rules say. Do you understand what 'two weapons' mean? Are you buying two weapons?

I'm not ignoring anything, neither am I adding in assumed implications into the rules. Taking plama rifles on a normal battlesuit as an example, I can take 3 weapons from the list. If I pay 15 points I get one single rifle. If I pay 20 points I get 2 plasma rifles that count as twin linked. But there is nothing anywhere in the weapon selection rules that prevent me from spending 15 points for a single rifle and then another 15 points for another single rifle. The 20 point option is effectively a multi-buy discount with specific attached rules. In the old codex this kind of thing never came up because they explicitly prohibited the purchase of multiple individual weapons of the same type. That rule has not been brought into this edition of the rules. It might get errata'd at some point in the future but currently as it stands there is no such restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought of an analogy. Its like a shop that sells apples. You can buy individual apples for full price, or you can buy a 2 pack for only a bit more than one apple, but you have to eat them in the store. How many ways are there to buy 2 apples?

I really think this is pretty cut and dry here - the codex specifically states that if there are two of the same weapon on a crisis suit, those two combine into a twin-linked captain planet gun. Then you are allowed to use your third hardpoint to buy a third weapon if you so wish, since the other two have already been combined.

1 weapon selection = 1 weapon
2 weapon selections = 1 TL weapon
3 weapon selections = 1 TL weapon + 1 weapon
4 weapon selections = 2 TL weapons

Where does it specifically state that? The weapons list gives 2 prices and does not restrict in what combination you can spend points on the options.

It says if you have 2 weapons of the same type they count as a single twin-linked weapon. So you can't buy 2 seperate single weapons, but you could buy a twin-linked and a single version of the same weapon.

 Flinty wrote:
But there is nothing anywhere in the weapon selection rules that prevent me from spending 15 points for a single rifle and then another 15 points for another single rifle.

So how many plasma rifles you are buying here again?

That's right, two! And the rules tell you how to buy two weapons. You are basically claiming that one plus one does not equal two.

 Crimson wrote:
Flinty, that is just wilfully ignoring what the rules say. Do you understand what 'two weapons' mean? Are you buying two weapons?

Yes, but what you keep ignoring is that the rules give you two ways of buying two weapons: you can buy two at once acting as a twin-linked gun that takes up two spaces, or you can pay more points and purchase the single weapon twice. The ONLY reason this is even remotely controversial is because there used to be a rule in the old codex that banned you from buying two separate weapons. If you don't start with the assumption that the new codex has to work like the old codex then the rules are perfectly clear on the subject: two single weapons are a legal option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
So how many plasma rifles you are buying here again?

Two. But I am buying them by getting the single plasma rifle upgrade twice, as I am legally allowed to do since there is no restriction on how many times you can pick a specific upgrade (as long as I can afford to pay the higher point cost of doing it that way).

And the rules tell you how to buy two weapons.

No, they tell you one way of buying two weapons. You can save points by purchasing a single twin-linked gun, but there is nothing that says that two weapons are always twin-linked.

If the rules tell you how to buy two weapons, then that's how you have to do it instead of inventing your own rules.

 Crimson wrote:


What the last codex did or didn't say is irrelevant.

Right, the only reason we are debating what we can or cannot do when the codex clearly DOES NOT say that we cant, is because of what a pervious edition of codex did prevent. The codex no longer explicitly says that we cant. Why would we not be able to? The codex gives us the option to purchase a single and the optiont to purchase a TL set at a discount. It does not say. All models with 2 of the same gun count as TLed. And so they dont!

Peregrine has it 100% right. At least until we get an FAQ anyways

The rules tell you how much the options cost. The rules do not restrict you on which options you purchase. As it is written you can buy a twin linked set or pay more and buy separate weapons. The only rules inventing going on here is the assumption that you can only ever buy 2 weapons as a twin linked set, when the rules do not in fact say that.

Here are the real questions: can you ever fire more than two of these four weapons? Is firing two weapons purchased as TL'd firing one weapon or two weapons?

Homer

Suits have Multi-trackers right? So they can fire 2 weapons.

A twin-linked gun only counts as a single weapon. So a suit could fire 2 Twin-linked weapons, or 2 single weapon.

For reference, Tau Codex

Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for two weapons (counting as twin-linked weapon for that type). A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

 Flinty wrote:
The rules tell you how much the options cost. The rules do not restrict you on which options you purchase. As it is written you can buy a twin linked set or pay more and buy separate weapons. The only rules inventing going on here is the assumption that you can only ever buy 2 weapons as a twin linked set, when the rules do not in fact say that.

So you are basically saying that when rules say: 'this is the point cost for two weapons' you can ignore that when buying two weapons?

 Crimson wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
The rules tell you how much the options cost. The rules do not restrict you on which options you purchase. As it is written you can buy a twin linked set or pay more and buy separate weapons. The only rules inventing going on here is the assumption that you can only ever buy 2 weapons as a twin linked set, when the rules do not in fact say that.

So you are basically saying that when rules say: 'this is the point cost for two weapons' you can ignore that when buying two weapons?

Because its not "this is the point cost for 2 weapons." Its "this is the point cost for two weapons(counts as TLed)." Therfore it DOES NOT state that you are forced to TL your weapons. Just merely giving you the option to get a TLed version if you want one.

Wolfnid420 wrote:


Because its not "this is the point cost for 2 weapons." Its "this is the point cost for two weapons(counts as TLed)." Therfore it DOES NOT state that you are forced to TL your weapons. Just merely giving you the option to get a TLed version if you want one.

No. if they wanted that they would've written that. I.e. 'the second price is for twin-linked weapons.' They did not do that. 'The second price is for two weapons.' (And having two of the same makes them twin-linked.)

synchronicity wrote:For reference, Tau Codex

Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for two weapons (counting as twin-linked weapon for that type). A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

Crimson wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:


Because its not "this is the point cost for 2 weapons." Its "this is the point cost for two weapons(counts as TLed)." Therfore it DOES NOT state that you are forced to TL your weapons. Just merely giving you the option to get a TLed version if you want one.

No. if they wanted that they would've written that. I.e. 'the second price is for twin-linked weapons.' They did not do that. 'The second price is for two weapons.' (And having two of the same makes them twin-linked.)

So, tell my why, that when I quote the codex(almost word for word) to defend my sideof the debate, that makes me wrong. Where as you, as it seems, have to alter the sentence structure pretty drastically to defend your side of the debate. Doesnt make much sense to me, and until i get a FAQ that says I shouldnt I will absolutely let people purchase two seperate versions of the same gun since it allows it

Wolfnid420 wrote:

So, tell my why, that when I quote the codex(almost word for word) to defend my sideof the debate, that makes me wrong. Where as you, as it seems, have to alter the sentence structure pretty drastically to defend your side of the debate. Doesnt make much sense to me, and until i get a FAQ that says I shouldnt I will absolutely let people purchase two seperate versions of the same gun since it allows it

I don't have to change anything:

Tau Codex wrote:Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for two weapons (counting as twin-linked weapon for that type). A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

Tau Codex wrote: the second is for two weapons

How is that unclear?



To mean what you think it means it would have to say:

Not Tau Codex wrote:Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for a twin-linked weapon of that type. A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

But it doesn't.

To mean what you think it means it would have to say:

Not Tau Codex wrote:Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for a twin-linked weapon of that type. A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

But it doesn't.

Neroman wrote:

That's exactly what it means!

Yeah, there's your problem. It really doesn't. If it would be written that way, it wouldn't say anything about buying two weapons, letting you free to buy multiple weapons any way you like. However, what the codex actually says, tells you how to buy two weapons (which then incidentally become twin-linked.)

Two weapons are twin linked. The most straightforward reading of the rule supports this. If you have to say "look at it like this" or rearrange sentences from the codex, you are probably bending the rules or outright wrong.

Also when upgrading models the final load-out is what should be tallied for points. No "I buy one weapon, pause, now I buy that same weapon". It's either a plasma rifle, or a twin linked plasma rifle, or a twin linked plasma rifle plus another plasma rifle.

This is the exact reasons many people (American's *cough* :-)) get into bad political debates on the internet.

Speaking from experience here, I've played this game a lot in Ireland and more in America there's a dissonance between how "Europeans (Irish)" and American's interpret the rules.

The difference is this, my Irish team seems to generally go the direction of; 'If the book doesn't EXPLICITLY say that you CAN do something, you CAN'T." My American friends tend to go; 'If the book doesn't EXPLICITLY FORBID it, I can."

Subtle but very different and a large part of the mindset that's showing up in this debate. It won't get clarified because GW probably won't think it's an issue since it doesn't say that you can buy single weapons.

The rules say, two weapons = twin-linked and that's how they'll be run.

 Crimson wrote:
So you are basically saying that when rules say: 'this is the point cost for two weapons' you can ignore that when buying two weapons?

No, you don't ignore it. If you buy two weapons at once you pay the cheaper price, it's a twin-linked weapon, and it occupies two slots. Alternatively, you can buy one weapon, but do it twice. You will pay more points, get two separate weapons, and spend two slots.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
The difference is this, my Irish team seems to generally go the direction of; 'If the book doesn't EXPLICITLY say that you CAN do something, you CAN'T." My American friends tend to go; 'If the book doesn't EXPLICITLY FORBID it, I can."

That's not true at all. The rules explicitly say that you can take two single weapons.

The rules say, two weapons = twin-linked and that's how they'll be run.

Except that's not at all what the rules say. It's what it used to say in the old codex, but the rules in the new codex are different.

 Peregrine wrote:
Alternatively, you can buy one weapon, but do it twice. You will pay more points, get two separate weapons, and spend two slots.

That is an alternative you've made up. The rules tell you how to buy two weapons.

This is a situation quite common in this game: there is a general rule how to do things (buying the weapons from the list), and an exception that pertains specific situation (buying two of the same weapon.) And once the requirements for that exception are met, it applies. You just cannot ignore the exception if you don't happen to like it.

 Crimson wrote:
That is an alternative you've made up. The rules tell you how to buy two weapons.

Again, they tell you that if you buy two weapons at once. You can also buy one weapon and then buy another weapon. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

Let's go back to the grocery store analogy: you're looking at the shelf of apples, and you have two packages to choose from:

Package #1 is a single apple for $1.

Package #2 is two apples for $1.50, but they don't look as fresh.

Now, let's say you want to buy two apples. Can you buy two of the nicer ones (at a higher price), or are you required to buy the two-apple package?

This is a situation quite common in this game: there is a general rule how to do things (buying the weapons from the list), and an exception that pertains specific situation (buying two of the same weapon.) And once the requirements for that exception are met, it applies. You just cannot ignore the exception if you don't happen to like it.

Except that it doesn't say that two weapons ALWAYS count as twin-linked, it says that you MAY buy two weapons as a twin-linked weapon. Please try to understand that the restriction from the old codex no longer exists.

It doesn't say that if you buy 2 of the same weapon they are twin linked. What it says is that if you spend 20 points, you get 2 weapons and they are twin linked. If you spend 15 points you get a single normal version of the weapon. In the codex it is even explained in that order. Price first and then what you get for that price. If you choose to pay the single weapon price multiple times then you get the single normal weapon multiple times.

The specific allowance to do this comes from the unit entry where it says make a number of choices from the weapons list. It does not restrict the player in how they make their choices, or require that your choices have to be different from each other. A commander suit could take 4 drone controllers if it wished. Sure it wouldn't be any damn use but you could do it. Similarly it coukd choose 4 independant plasma rifles. Again it would be a waste of points but it is not prohibited by the rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

Again, they tell you that if you buy two weapons at once. You can also buy one weapon and then buy another weapon. Seriously, why is this so hard to understand?

It is not. But I do not get why 1+1=2 is so hard to understand. You are buying two weapons. There are rule for buying two weapons, and you have to use it.

Except that it doesn't say that two weapons ALWAYS count as twin-linked, it says that you MAY buy two weapons as a twin-linked weapon. Please try to understand that the restriction from the old codex no longer exists.

I have never played Tau. I didn't even remember what the old codex said until it was brought up in this thread. It is irrelevant.

The current codex tells you how to buy two of the same weapon and what happens once you do.

That's not true at all. The rules explicitly say that you can take two single weapons.

Yes it is, show me where it explicit states you can take two single weapons.
Excluding Shadowsun, she's a separate thing.

Also, I'm done with this conversation. I quoted the ACTUAL rule that this pertains to - PG 95 - that says buying two weapons makes them twin-linked. If you want to continue to have this argument, go hang out with other stupid/ willfully contrary people and do whatever it is you do that makes you happy. Probably making fun of people on youtube. I hear that pays great.

"Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version, and the second is for two weapons (Counting as a twin-linked weapon of that type). A twin-linked weapon counts as TWO choices from this lists."

If you are this nit picky and difficult to play against you are a negative player. One I will never play, nor ever want to meet. I'm done with you. Have a good life and get over yourselves.

Again, no it doesn't. It tells you what you get if you pay 20 points. It also tells you what you get if you pay 15 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

That's not true at all. The rules explicitly say that you can take two single weapons.

Yes it is, show me where it explicit states you can take two single weapons.
Excluding Shadowsun, she's a separate thing.

Under each of the battlesuit entries it tells you how many choices you can make and on what lists. There are no further restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't see why this is particularly different to a Marine captain, say, buying 2 plasma pistols. You pay 15 points per pistol and you can fire both of them.

 Flinty wrote:

Under each of the battlesuit entries it tells you how many choices you can make and on what lists. There are no further restrictions.

Yes there is. You just choose ignore it.

I don't see why this is particularly different to a Marine captain, say, buying 2 plasma pistols. You pay 15 points per pistol and you can fire both of them.

Because there is not a specific rule telling us how to buy two plasma pistols that would supersede the normal rules.