XV-8 Crisis Suit Weapon Loadouts

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**Chopper Greg**

TheKbob wrote:
So I just care about running Suits with TL BC/ BC (paying 15 / 10 respectively for them) to make a Hailstorm build:

Commander (upgrades)
-Airbursting Frag
-BC
-Drone Controller
-Shield Drones
-Extra special toys

Crisis Suits
-TL BC/ BC
-TL BC/ BC
-TL BC/ BC
-6x Gun Drones

So I can have 40 S5 shots, 24 Twin Linked plus the Airburst. Death by a million cuts, but really I just wanna roll a bunch of dice with some mechs.

Is that a legal load out considering I'm paying the 15/10 for the Crisis Suits?

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but how are you going to fire those extra suit weapons without a Multi-Tracker?

On pg 98, it says that a commander may take up to 4 ranged weapons and/or support systems.
On pg 68 it says " A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase ".

Does this mean that it you don't have it, you are limited to using only one ranged weapon ( twin linked or not ), regardless of how many the suit actually has?

If this is true and I'm understanding things correctly, then this looks like a major shift from the previous Tau codex, where ( IIRC ) there was nothing as far as the suit's available slots, could stop you from shooting all your weapons in the shooting phase.

**Happyjew**

Chopper Greg wrote:
I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but how are you going to fire those extra suit weapons without a Multi-Tracker?

On pg 98, it says that a commander may take up to 4 ranged weapons and/or support systems.
On pg 68 it says " A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase ".

Does this mean that it you don't have it, you are limited to using only one ranged weapon ( twin linked or not ), regardless of how many the suit actually has?

If this is true and I'm understanding things correctly, then this looks like a major shift from the previous Tau codex, where ( IIRC ) there was nothing as far as the suit's available slots, could stop you from shooting all your weapons in the shooting phase.

Page 70 of the Tau codex (ARMOUR), the first paragraph not in italics.

**YotsubaSnake**

Chopper Greg wrote:
TheKbob wrote:
So I just care about running Suits with TL BC/ BC (paying 15 / 10 respectively for them) to make a Hailstorm build:

Commander (upgrades)
-Airbursting Frag
-BC
-Drone Controller
-Shield Drones
-Extra special toys

Crisis Suits
-TL BC/ BC
-TL BC/ BC
-TL BC/ BC
-6x Gun Drones

So I can have 40 S5 shots, 24 Twin Linked plus the Airburst. Death by a million cuts, but really I just wanna roll a bunch of dice with some mechs.

Is that a legal load out considering I'm paying the 15/10 for the Crisis Suits?

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but how are you going to fire those extra suit weapons without a Multi-Tracker?

On pg 98, it says that a commander may take up to 4 ranged weapons and/or support systems.
On pg 68 it says " A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase ".

Does this mean that it you don't have it, you are limited to using only one ranged weapon ( twin linked or not ), regardless of how many the suit actually has?

If this is true and I'm understanding things correctly, then this looks like a major shift from the previous Tau codex, where ( IIRC ) there was nothing as far as the suit's available slots, could stop you from shooting all your weapons in the shooting phase.

No, he's fine. Each suit has two weapons so he's fine in that department. Multitrackers come standard on crisis suits along with black sun filters so he can easily fire both the weapons he has on each of his suits.

**Scipio Africanus**

Peregrine wrote:
Pyrian wrote:
I would consider that rule to be redundant; you are not normally allowed to pick the same option multiple times, you need explicit permission to be able to do that, rather than a specific restriction to prevent it.

So which other instances of the battlesuit weapon list have that rule? Because it doesn't matter if some other codex says you can't pick an option twice, just like it doesn't matter if some codices have ATSKNF as an army-wide rule. Tau don't have either.

Don't we need permission to take an item twice?

**From**

Tunafinch wrote:
"Any Crisis Shas'ui may take up to three items from the Ranged Weapons and/or Support Systems list."

"...A standard, single version" is an item from the Ranged Weapons list. I am nowhere restricted from this option and I can therefore take it three times if I wanted (note: I could only fire two of the three.)

There is ALSO a twin linked version. The key word here is "version."

It also makes a ton of sense mathematically. If I were to take two missile pods (Assault 2) I would do more damage on average and also cost more.

How much extra damage??? Well, at BS 3 I'm going to average 2 hits. With a twin-linked version with two shots I'll run 1.5 hits on average. This gives us a ratio of 2-1.5 or 4/3

and how much more does it cost??? Well, it would cost 30 points to get two of the single versions of the Missile Pod and only 20 points for one twin-linked version. This gives us a ratio of 3/2

So while it ups the damage output of a Crisis suit by 4/3 it costs 3/2 times more. Thats 8/6 and 9/6 respectively if you want the denominators equal. It seems like damn fine rules to me.

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) But at what cost?!

**Neroman**

Except there is no limiting word or phrase. There is nothing that says, "may take A" or "may take one". Simply that you can chose 3/4 Items, depending on unit, from the lists provided. I can't recall seeing anything that ever says you can't take more than one. Of course I could be wrong. It just happens that taking more than 1 of an item doesn't help you in most cases.

Regarding points costs. It lists two options. One for a single version, the other for 2 weapons counting as twin linked. There are no rules saying you HAVE to buy the second choice. There is no line saying this is the only way to get two weapons. Its very blatant, X points for weapon, as a single weapon, and X points for two, counting as twin-linked.

**Chopper Greg**

YotsubaSnake wrote:
Chopper Greg wrote:

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but how are you going to fire those extra suit weapons without a Multi-Tracker?

On pg 98, it says that a commander may take up to 4 ranged weapons and/or support systems.
On pg 68 it says " A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase ".

Does this mean that it you don't have it, you are limited to using only one ranged weapon ( twin linked or not ), regardless of how many the suit actually has?

If this is true and I'm understanding things correctly, then this looks like a major shift from the previous Tau codex, where ( IIRC ) there was nothing as far as the suit's available slots, could stop you from shooting all your weapons in the shooting phase.

No, he's fine. Each suit has two weapons so he's fine in that department. Multitrackers come standard on crisis suits along with black sun filters so he can easily fire both the weapons he has on each of his suits.

Fair enough.

Does that mean if a commander takes an additional multi-tracker, he can then fire a third weapon?

**Desubot**

Chopper Greg wrote:

Fair enough.

Does that mean if a commander takes an additional multi-tracker, he can then fire a third weapon?

No such options and multiple specific rules anyway.

**Omega_Warlord**

There is no option to take a multi-tracker anymore
>< Ninja'd

**Scipio Africanus**

Desubot wrote:
Chopper Greg wrote:

Fair enough.

Does that mean if a commander takes an additional multi-tracker, he can then fire a third weapon?

No such options and multiple specific rules anyway.

Multiple specific rules only applies to special rules, not special wargear.

A man with two bolt guns can fire both, after all.

**Neroman**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Chopper Greg wrote:

Fair enough.

Does that mean if a commander takes an additional multi-tracker, he can then fire a third weapon?

No such options and multiple specific rules anyway.

Multiple specific rules only applies to special rules, not special wargear.

A man with two bolt guns can fire both, after all.

2 Bolt pistols yes. 2 bolt guns, no.

**Desubot**

Neroman wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Chopper Greg wrote:

Fair enough.

Does that mean if a commander takes an additional multi-tracker, he can then fire a third weapon?

No such options and multiple specific rules anyway.

Multiple specific rules only applies to special rules, not special wargear.

A man with two bolt guns can fire both, after all.

2 Bolt pistols yes. 2 bolt guns, no.

But that's under its own gunslinger rule no?

anyway this inst about multiple rule so lets get back on topic.

**Chopper Greg**

I would say that the new codex layout is not as compact as it could be, making it harder to keep track of things like this - as such I'm not a fan of it from this perspective.

**Trasvi**

I think it is far better than the 5th edition Codices I own. The summary in the back having all the special rules is fantastic for ease of play: you can get all of the game rules for building the army from pages 95-108 of the book, and all of the in-game as-you-play rules from only the last 5 pages. A lot better than my Nids codex which sometimes required 7 pages in different sections of the book to play a single unit....

**Dracoknight**

As previously pointed out i think you are allowed to pick 3-4 of the same weapon, its just that the text try to empahize that ever 2 weapons of the same kind becomes a twin-linked.

Would be fun to have a Dual TL-Missilepod commander just for the heck of it.

**Anbutou**

It doesn't say that two weapons becomes twin-linked it says that utilization of the secondary points value IS a twin linked item and counts as two of your item choices.

**Crimson**

Anbutou wrote:
It doesn't say that two weapons becomes twin-linked it says that utilization of the secondary points value IS a twin linked item and counts as two of your item choices.

It still doesn't say that. It says that second point value is for two weapons.

**Dracos**

I disagree with crimson's reasoning.

The qualifier at the beginning of the sentence in question clarifies that the paragraph is referring to how to use the second point value.

However, I do agree that you can't take items from the list multiple times - the reasoning is simple: it never tells you that you can. The rules tell you to take X number of items from the list. I do not find it to be implied that this means you can take multiples of each item on that list.

Since there is no specific permission to take the same item multiple times, you can't.

**Beast**

I don't think you need specific permission to take the same item multiple times- although I think it is already there in the case of TL weapons. You can take 3 items for Crisis suits. So chose a weapon (say a Missile Pod)- that's one. Choose another- say another Missile Pod for a TL Missile Pod - that's two. Have you broken a rule by choosing the same item twice? Now say you want to choose a third item from the list. Choose a third Missile Pod. What rule have you broken? The second and third choices are being made in accordance with the permission given to you, all are on the list of options and nothing restricts you from doing that. The Missile Pod doesn't disappear from the list once you have chosen it once... If it did then how would you be able to take a TL one at all?

**Dracos**

You've not selected 3 items from the list, but rather 1 item 3 times. You only have permission for the former.

**Beast**

A Missile Pod is an item on the list. I went through the item selection process three times. What rule did I break? I propose that would break no rule and it was actually done iaw with the permission already given.

But just so I understand your thinking a little more clearly, can you explain how you would select a TL weapon of any type? How would you do that without selecting the same item 2 times?

**Dracos**

Specific permission to take a tl is given as covered in this thread.

**Beast**

And a TL weapons is two of the same weapon... so there you go.

**Dracos**

You didnt break a rule, I just think you inferred something that the text is not necessarily implying.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again the same page gives you explicit permission to do so, which is the only reason you can.

**Beast**

I don't think I am inferring anything. I am just following the permission given to me. I slect and choose three items from those available.

**Dracos**

Nope that is selecting 1 item 3 times. Agree to disagree imo.

**Beast**

Okay we can certainly agree to disagree. But just to ask one more question of you... How does selecting 1 item 3 times go against the permission that is given to us?

**Dracos**

Because you only have permission to select 3 items on the list. I think the disconnect is that you see a timing ( I pick this then this then that) where I dont. You go down the list and select up to 3. You dont go down the list up to 3 times, making a selection each time (given my understanding).

**Beast**

I think that might be inferring something that isn't there... How do you select three items unless you do it sequentially? You pick one, then pick a second, then pick a third... Does it tell us that the previous pick is no longer available once we have chosen it the first (or second) time?

Not saying you are wrong, I just think you are placing a restriction on yourself that isn't there. And the idea of that restriction is actually undermined by selecting a TL weapon... But that's just my $.02... Maybe someone else has another insight or some other reference to cite?

**Crimson**

I understand what Dracos is saying (I'm not sure I agree.) If on a lottery ticket you need to choose seven numbers out of 39, you cannot choose number 28 seven times, that's not choosing seven numbers.