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 Crimson wrote:
I understand what Dracos is saying (I'm not sure I agree.) If on a lottery ticket you need to choose seven numbers out of 39, you cannot choose number 28 seven times, that's not choosing seven numbers.

A lottery ticket is not a relevant argument imo. What tells us that an item disappears from the list of available choices once we have selected it once (or twice) as it would on a physical lottery ticket? There is no wording there (that I have seen) to even imply that. We don't fill out a lottery ticket when selecting suit options. And the permission given for option selection doesn't restrict us in that fashion (as it did in previous codex). Selecting 1 item 3 times is within the permsiion given and, absent a restriction, then it seems you can do that. Now, this could certainly be FAQ'd away, but as it stands now, I think RAW allows it.

So can I give a Leman Russ tank twelve hunter-killer missiles then?

 Crimson wrote:
So can I give a Leman Russ tank twelve hunter-killer missiles then?

Except that the Leman Russ entry says a hunter killer missile costs 10 points per model, which implies a limit of 1 per tank. The new Tau codex has nearly the exact same wording of the previous codex except it removes the line that says a suit cannot take 3 of the same weapon system. Which means I have to ask, was it in a FAQ someplace for the 4E codex that you could only take 1 of a weapon or 2 for a twin linked, and could not take 2 of the same single weapons? I know I was always told I could take 1 or twin link 2, but this discussion makes me think 2 single weapons should have been possible before.

 Crimson wrote:
So can I give a Leman Russ tank twelve hunter-killer missiles then?

No, but you can give a Chaos Lord a pair of Lightning Claws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hokieseas wrote:
Which means I have to ask, was it in a FAQ someplace for the 4E codex that you could only take 1 of a weapon or 2 for a twin linked, and could not take 2 of the same single weapons?

It was in the codex.

Top of page 25, start of the Battlesuit Armoury section: "No model can pick the same item twice"

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So can I give a Leman Russ tank twelve hunter-killer missiles then?

No, but you can give a Chaos Lord a pair of Lightning Claws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hokieseas wrote:
Which means I have to ask, was it in a FAQ someplace for the 4E codex that you could only take 1 of a weapon or 2 for a twin linked, and could not take 2 of the same single weapons?

It was in the codex.

Top of page 25, start of the Battlesuit Armoury section: "No model can pick the same item twice"

Ah yes, thanks.

I'd love to be able to have Suits with 2 MPs and Velocity Trackers, as 12 S7 Shots against Flyers would be nasty! But until the FAQ states you can, I'll take what my current loadouts, which state it as it used to be.

hokieseas wrote:

Except that the Leman Russ entry says a hunter killer missile costs 10 points per model, which implies a limit of 1 per tank.

That is a dubious interpretation. And in any case, SM vehicle upgrades don't say that, so Marines can have unlimited amount of HK missiles (and unlimited amount of multi-meltas on Land Raiders)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

No, but you can give a Chaos Lord a pair of Lightning Claws.

Why? And can SM Captains have unlimited amount of Auxilary Grenade Launchers? (They can be fired in addition to another weapon so you can probably fire multiple.)

EDIT: Oh, this is good one! Can I give DE Archon multiple Shadow Fields so when one breaks, he still has a backup?

OK - the whole limitations with what weapons can and cannot be taken is covered in another thread and really people are going to stick to their guns about what can and what cannot be taken.

Now - What is explicitly allowed with the new codex (no way to argue them):

A single Weapon
A twin linked weapon
Two different weapons
three different weapons
A twin linked weapon and another weapon (same or different)
Two twin linked weapons (same or different) - commanders only

Now - the one that is up in the air is:
two of the same weapon, not twin-linked

Arguments:
For allowing this: that because you can purchase one weapon at the listed, they believe that you can just pay that price twice and have two identical weapons that are not twin linked. They believe that them becoming twin-linked is optional that they can choose.

For NOT allowing this: english is english - the first price is for 1, the second price is for 2 of them. just because it follows with a parenthetical, does not negate that you are purchasing two weapons. Following the rules, when you purchase two identical weapons that are not already twin linked, it makes them twin linked, whether you want it to or not.

I am of the against, and so are most of the people who are do not even play the game but know the english language, interpret it as the second (not allow two of the same, none twin-linked weapons). Regardless of what we all think, until the FAQ comes out - whether or not you can take that setup is up to the TO in the tournament or your opponent in a normal game - and ALWAYS check with them before you start.

Personal note - If you tried to put two non-twin-linked identical weapons on the table, i would tell you fix it or not play....

I offer a compromise! People can buy the weapons separately but they still count as twin-linked! Everyone happy now?

 Amaraxis wrote:
OK - the whole limitations with what weapons can and cannot be taken is covered in another thread and really people are going to stick to their guns about what can and what cannot be taken.

Now - What is explicitly allowed with the new codex (no way to argue them):

A single Weapon
A twin linked weapon
Two different weapons
three different weapons
A twin linked weapon and another weapon (same or different)
Two twin linked weapons (same or different) - commanders only

Now - the one that is up in the air is:
two of the same weapon, not twin-linked

Sorry but please don't make declarations like this as if you have some sort of authority as to what is up for debate.

As noted earlier, imo, the italicized options are not legal. That is to say, a suit can never purchase two of the same weapon except in the case of a twin-linked version which counts as two choices.

 Crimson wrote:
I understand what Dracos is saying (I'm not sure I agree.) If on a lottery ticket you need to choose seven numbers out of 39, you cannot choose number 28 seven times, that's not choosing seven numbers.

The problem with that annology, is that once you fill in the blank for number 28, that no longer is a valid choice because the blank for it is filled in, and you can not fill it in again - or rather you could, but it wouldn't actually give you any chance of winning the lotto.

On the other hand, if you are given a list of 17 numbers, and told that you are given two numbers already and that you can make 3 more selections from it, without any further rules or instructions to the contrary, there is nothing in the world that says that you can't choose the same number 3 different times, other than an option that if you select it twice you can choose to double that number if you want, giving you a slightly larger range of numbers to work with.

Nothing saying that you have to double that number, just that you have the option.

The analogy was flawed no doubt - the inability to take the same number twice in a lottery is probably more of a product on how stupid it would be, leading the people running the lottery to not have any support at all to address the concept (i doubt they can even enter the same number twice on a ticket if they wanted to, for example).

However, you are still told to pick X items from the list with no further permission to pick an item twice.

The item doesn't disappear or anything like that, it simply appears on the list once. Since it only appears on the list once, you need permission to pick it more than once. I don't find the wording in the codex to support the idea that one can pick the same item multiple times.

Mind you, its doesn't say you can't either. But this is permissive, you need permission not restriction.

I don't find permission implied by the text of 'taking up to 3 items' from the list.

 Dracos wrote:


I don't find permission implied by the text of 'taking up to 3 items' from the list.

Yeah, I might agree with you if it said you may take up to 3 different items from the list, but it doesn't make that restriction (or anything like it aside from the 2 weapons counting as TL). Yes, the old codex had words to that effect, but those words, and anything resembling them, are conspicuously absent in this codex...

 Dracos wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:
OK - the whole limitations with what weapons can and cannot be taken is covered in another thread and really people are going to stick to their guns about what can and what cannot be taken.

Now - What is explicitly allowed with the new codex (no way to argue them):

A single Weapon
A twin linked weapon
Two different weapons
three different weapons
A twin linked weapon and another weapon (same or different)
Two twin linked weapons (same or different) - commanders only

Now - the one that is up in the air is:
two of the same weapon, not twin-linked

Sorry but please don't make declarations like this as if you have some sort of authority as to what is up for debate.

As noted earlier, imo, the italicized options are not legal. That is to say, a suit can never purchase two of the same weapon except in the case of a twin-linked version which counts as two choices.

Don't make declarations like you are an authority. There is nothing in the game that prevents you italicized items - therefore there is not need to have special rules to say that they can. All it says is that you get to pick 3 items - says no where that you cannot. Also - it specifically states that you can take a twin-linked weapon and it counts as two choices. it does nto say that you are limited to two of the same weapon max.

Also - this is YMDC - and YES there was an immensely long debate about this before (and has since been buried). until it is FAW'd it is up to everyone's own decision what they interpret.

Beast wrote:

Yeah, I might agree with you if it said you may take up to 3 different items from the list, but it doesn't make that restriction (or anything like it aside from the 2 weapons counting as TL). Yes, the old codex had words to that effect, but those words, and anything resembling them, are conspicuously absent in this codex...

So I can give DE Archon two Shadow Fields and LR Crusader six Pintle-Mounted Multi-Meltas and fourteen HK missiles?

 Crimson wrote:

Beast wrote:

Yeah, I might agree with you if it said you may take up to 3 different items from the list, but it doesn't make that restriction (or anything like it aside from the 2 weapons counting as TL). Yes, the old codex had words to that effect, but those words, and anything resembling them, are conspicuously absent in this codex...

So I can give DE Archon two Shadow Fields and LR Crusader six Pintle-Mounted Multi-Meltas and fourteen HK missiles?

Sorry I thought we were talking about the Tau codex here and what IT actually says, not what a plethora of OTHER codecii say about other completely unrelated things that have their own rules and selection criteria...

 Crimson wrote:

Beast wrote:

Yeah, I might agree with you if it said you may take up to 3 different items from the list, but it doesn't make that restriction (or anything like it aside from the 2 weapons counting as TL). Yes, the old codex had words to that effect, but those words, and anything resembling them, are conspicuously absent in this codex...

So I can give DE Archon two Shadow Fields and LR Crusader six Pintle-Mounted Multi-Meltas and fourteen HK missiles?

Why do you keep referring to wargear which you can't take multiples of? You need to look at wargear which you can take at least two of in a unit, like 2 Thunder Hammers on a Captain/Wolf Lord or 2 Daemonblades on an Inquisitor, you can even take 2 plasma pistols on an inquisitor as you can replace both the bolt pistol and chainsword for a plasma pistol each, these are valid examples. stating wargear which you know you can't take multiples of isn't going to help you win your argument.

Beast wrote:

Sorry I thought we were talking about the Tau codex here and what IT actually says, not what a plethora of OTHER codecii say about other completely unrelated things that have their own rules and selection criteria...

It is not unrelated, it is perfectly relevant. If we assume that you can take multiples of same item unless it is specifically forbidden, we then must apply that principle to other codices as well. (And then the game breaks.)

Precedent seems to be that GW assumes that you cannot take multiples of same item unless explicitly given permission to do so.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

hokieseas wrote:
Which means I have to ask, was it in a FAQ someplace for the 4E codex that you could only take 1 of a weapon or 2 for a twin linked, and could not take 2 of the same single weapons?

It was in the codex.

Top of page 25, start of the Battlesuit Armoury section: "No model can pick the same item twice"

So we have a case where the 4th Ed Tau codex and the 5th Ed Tau codex, very explicitly say you can not choose the same weapon twice, and the 6th Ed Tau codex doesn't.


Now either this was a mistake on the part of Games Workshop, in which case they will FAQ it, to say that you can not choose the same weapon twice, or it is not and you can choose the same weapon twice.

Given that they very explicitly say you can't in previous versions, until they FAQ the 6th Ed Codex to explicitly say you can't choose two of the same weapons, there is nothing saying that we can't - it's also likely that they might be waiting to see if it's an over powering issue. In either case, given the precedent of the 4th and 5th Ed Tau codexes of expressly forbidding the use of 2 single weapons of the same type, until it's expressly forbidden in the 6th Ed Codex by a FAQ, it's not illegal to have two single weapons.

 Crimson wrote:

Beast wrote:

Sorry I thought we were talking about the Tau codex here and what IT actually says, not what a plethora of OTHER codecii say about other completely unrelated things that have their own rules and selection criteria...

It is not unrelated, it is perfectly relevant. If we assume that you can take multiples of same item unless it is specifically forbidden, we then must apply that principle to other codices as well. (And then the game breaks.)

Precedent seems to be that GW assumes that you cannot take multiples of same item unless explicitly given permission to do so.

That sounds a lot like you are arguing RAI... We are explicitly allowed to take 3 item from a list for Crisis suits... In what way does it break that permission if I choose the same item 3 times? Your other (irrelevant) examples are for items that you are NEVER granted permission to pick more than 1 of. Crisis suits specifically ARE granted permission, by the wording, to have 3 items and they conspicuously (by neglect or design) left out any restriction on choosing the same item more than once (as they had in the past)... So, imho, until it is FAQ'd to the contrary, RAW says you can in fact choose one, two or three of the same weapon on a Crisis suit...

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Why do you keep referring to wargear which you can't take multiples of?

And why I cannot take multiples of them? It is not specifically forbidden. That's my whole point. People keep saying that the Tau can take multiples of same weapon because it is not specificly forbidden.

You need to look at wargear which you can take at least two of in a unit, like 2 Thunder Hammers on a Captain/Wolf Lord or 2 Daemonblades on an Inquisitor, stating wargear which you know you can't take multiples of isn't going to help you win your argument

You can take two of certain weapons, because you're given explicit permission to upgrade your both your pistol and CCW. There is no such special allowances in Tau codex, besides the option for two-weapons at lower point cost (which them become twin-linked.)

Specifically shadow field is 1 per army.

The best example, without my SM codex handy, is the captain taking the Aux grenade launcher.

If you can select the same line item multiple times, IIRC there is nothing else preventing a billion Aux grenade launchers from being taken.

Taking 3 items on a list is not the same thing as taking a single item on the list 3 times.

Since those are not analogous, you need explicit permission to do so. You don't have it, so you can't.

 Crimson wrote:

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Why do you keep referring to wargear which you can't take multiples of?

And why I cannot take multiples of them? It is not specifically forbidden. That's my whole point. People keep saying that the Tau can take multiples of same weapon because it is not specificly forbidden.

You need to look at wargear which you can take at least two of in a unit, like 2 Thunder Hammers on a Captain/Wolf Lord or 2 Daemonblades on an Inquisitor, stating wargear which you know you can't take multiples of isn't going to help you win your argument

You can take two of certain weapons, because you're given explicit permission to upgrade your both your pistol and CCW. There is no such special allowances in Tau codex, besides the option for two-weapons at lower point cost (which them become twin-linked.)

Well, for starters in a LR it says you can take A multi melta (which refers to it being a single multi melta) I've not looked at the DE codex recently, but I'm pretty sure there would be no point in taking 2 shadowfields, and it doesn't say you can take more than one in the first place (whereas in Crisis suits it says you can take more than one of the same weapon), so i still think your points are a bit off.

Where does it say a crisis suit can take more than one of the same weapon (other than for twin-linking cost)?

Crisis suits say you can take three in total, just as many other character and vehicle options say you can take any i.e. unlimited amount of items. Neither of these wordings address taking multiples of the same item at all, merely the total number of items selected.

(And 'a' changes nothing. Yes, it is 'a hunter-killer missile', but that doesn't mean I cannot take same selection several times.)

IIRC the SM book says
"may take any of the following:
[...] - a hunter killer missile .... 10pts"

So something close to that.

If you can take the same line item multiple times, the SM book is saying that a single HK missile is 10pts, but there is no restriction on how many times you can elect that option.

Just a quick question, instead of citing pre 6th ed codexs, how are the 6th ed codexs written in cases like this? Im sure dark angeles can take hkm right?

It specifies for vehicle wargear they can take up to one of each item.

 Happyjew wrote:
It specifies for vehicle wargear they can take up to one of each item.

Interestingly enough, Tau vehicle equipment section doesn't say this...

 Crimson wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It specifies for vehicle wargear they can take up to one of each item.

Interestingly enough, Tau vehicle equipment section doesn't say this...

Most likely because there is no benefit to purchasing multiples of the same item. A vehicle with 2+ Sensor Spines doesn't give the vehicle anything 1 Sensor Spines gives.