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But a vehicle with multiple disruption pods gets multiple +1 bonuses to cover saves...

 Desubot wrote:
Just a quick question, instead of citing pre 6th ed codexs, how are the 6th ed codexs written in cases like this? Im sure dark angeles can take hkm right?

DA Pred(random Tank sampling with access to Vehicle equipment): "May take items from the Dark Angels Vehicle equipment lists"

DA Vehicle list: "A model may take up to one of each of the following:"

The Tau Lists say nothing of the sort anywhere on them.

But then the items on the Tau vehicle list are all some variant of "A vehicle with [this Item]". So taking multiples is self restrictive(to do so simply wastes points), but it is possible to put 1000 darksun filters on your devilfish; but you get no benefit from that extra 999 points spent.

Tau Support Items are also All "model with" or "in a unit that contains at least 1". So again self restrictive, but possible

It is only the weapons that should have their own specific restrictions if they were intended to be restricted.

As to the "A chaos Lord can have a pair of Lightning claws" argument, those are both individually purchased at the cost of another item(trade BP and CCW both in And/Or configuration); so that argument is invalid.

 Dracos wrote:
But a vehicle with multiple disruption pods gets multiple +1 bonuses to cover saves...

Correct. A vehicle with Disruption Pods gets +1 to cover saves. A vehicle with 120 Disruption Pods gets +1 to cover saves (and yes this is (theoretically) possible in a 2000 pt army).

I'm not sure why a model with multiple d-pods wouldn't get multiple +1 cover saves. Then again I'm at work and don't have my codex with me. Where does it say that it does not stack? There is nothing that implies you don't apply the special rules for each item you purchase - even if they are multiples of the same item.

please cite your source on '120 d-pods only give +1 cover'

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Just a quick question, instead of citing pre 6th ed codexs, how are the 6th ed codexs written in cases like this? Im sure dark angeles can take hkm right?

DA Pred(random Tank sampling with access to Vehicle equipment): "May take items from the Dark Angels Vehicle equipment lists"

DA Vehicle list: "A model may take up to one of each of the following:"

The Tau Lists say nothing of the sort anywhere on them.

But then the items on the Tau vehicle list are all some variant of "A vehicle with [this Item]". So taking multiples is self restrictive(to do so simply wastes points), but it is possible to put 1000 darksun filters on your devilfish; but you get no benefit from that extra 999 points spent.

Tau Support Items are also All "model with" or "in a unit that contains at least 1". So again self restrictive, but possible

It is only the weapons that should have their own specific restrictions if they were intended to be restricted.

As to the "A chaos Lord can have a pair of Lightning claws" argument, those are both individually purchased at the cost of another item(trade BP and CCW both in And/Or configuration); so that argument is invalid.

Neet. thanks for the explanation.

Though we still have no definitive answer to the tau question

 Dracos wrote:
I'm not sure why a model with multiple d-pods wouldn't get multiple +1 cover saves. Then again I'm at work and don't have my codex with me. Where does it say that it does not stack? There is nothing that implies you don't apply the special rules for each item you purchase - even if they are multiples of the same item.

please cite your source on '120 d-pods only give +1 cover'

If you go by the summary in the back, they grant Stealth (did not notice that until just now).

A vehicle with a disruption pod has +1 cover save.

If the vehicle has 120 d-pods does it have a d-pod? Yes. Just like if you are within 12" of 30 models with SitW you only add +1D6 to your Psychic tests.

Nothing that you've quoted limits the number of times you apply the +1 cover save. Certainly you've fulfilled the qualifier of "a model with a d-pod" but then you fail to apply the special rule the number of times it appears. I see no reason to do that.

edit: This is getting a bit off track though. I'm playing devils advocate to illustrate that it is no commonly acceptable or intended to be able to take multiples of single line items unless expressly stated.

 Crimson wrote:

hokieseas wrote:

Except that the Leman Russ entry says a hunter killer missile costs 10 points per model, which implies a limit of 1 per tank.

That is a dubious interpretation. And in any case, SM vehicle upgrades don't say that, so Marines can have unlimited amount of HK missiles (and unlimited amount of multi-meltas on Land Raiders)?

Except it says may take "A" which means singular.

Neroman wrote:

Except it says may take "A" which means singular.

Yes. And then you take 'a hunter-killer missile' several times, just like you can take Tau weapons several times! (Or not.)

Except that you are told to make three choices from a list without restriction to taking multiple single weapons of the same type, as you are explicitly forbidden to, in the 4th and 5th Ed Tau codex's.

 Chopper Greg wrote:
Except that you are told to make three choices from a list without restriction to taking multiple single weapons of the same type, as you are explicitly forbidden to, in the 4th and 5th Ed Tau codex's.

That doesn't matter. Either lack of special restrictions means multiples of the same item can be taken (up to the number of total items allowed, may that be three or infinite) in every codex, or it doesn't. So if Tau can take three plasma rifles, them SM can take infinite number of HK missiles. There is not specific restriction for this in in SM codex.

I'm jumping in sort of late here, but I wanted to address the OP.

The language in the codex is ambivalent, that's the problem.

What hasn't really been talked about is the first part: "...the first is for a standard, single version..."

This implies that the two point costs given are for two "versions" of the weapon, a single, standard version and two weapons (counting as twin linked).

It does not denote any restrictions on how many of either "version" you can take on a given model, except as given by their 'hard point' limit, which on regular Crisis suits is 3.

Saying "the rules are clear" is, at this point, getting into the RAI. Trying to claim definitively that this poorly-worded sentence is clear and needs no FAQing is silly. Obviously it does; many people have had this same question, have read the passage many times over and scoured the book for clarification, and a lot of these people are pretty smart.

I'd be surprised if they intended for people to be able to rock 2 of any weapon system on a given crisis suit, whether it's two singles or a single and a TL. I did some mathhammer with missile pod spam and it's a brutal setup. You do pay a lot of points for it, however, and Crisis suits aren't as durable as their models look.

That said, I hope I'm wrong, because specialization is as fun as diversity.

Alrighty! I'm gonna have to post this again, because everyone here is inferring things that aren't said. This is the rules VERBATIM from the book, and this is the only thing that's said about your choices. You tell me where this tells you that every instance of two weapons is twin linked, or where it details what you can and cannot take.

Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for
a standard, single version, and the second is for two
weapons (counting as a twin-linked weapon of that type) .
A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list.

 Dracos wrote:
Nothing that you've quoted limits the number of times you apply the +1 cover save. Certainly you've fulfilled the qualifier of "a model with a d-pod" but then you fail to apply the special rule the number of times it appears. I see no reason to do that.

There is a limit, and it's a very simple one. Read the rule (NOT the summary version in the back, which is not the official text of the rule):

A vehicle with a disruption pod has +1 cover save.

So it's a simple check: does a vehicle have a disruption pod? If yes, +1 cover. Having multiple disruption pods doesn't make any difference because all you're asking is "do I have a disruption pod", just like if I asked you "do you have any coins in your pocket" it wouldn't matter whether you have one coin or a hundred coins. The only situation where multiple disruption pods could ever be relevant is if there was a hypothetical effect that destroyed vehicle upgrades, in which case a vehicle with multiple disruption pods could have one destroyed and still get the +1 cover bonus from the remaining one.

For multiple disruption pods to stack you'd have to have something like:

A disruption pod grants +1 to a vehicle's cover saves.

In that case multiple disruption pods would each grant +1, up to a maximum of a 2+ cover save. However, that's very different from the actual rule.

 Crimson wrote:
That doesn't matter. Either lack of special restrictions means multiples of the same item can be taken (up to the number of total items allowed, may that be three or infinite) in every codex, or it doesn't. So if Tau can take three plasma rifles, them SM can take infinite number of HK missiles. There is not specific restriction for this in in SM codex.

There is a specific restriction, and it's in the formatting. You go down the options list one bullet point at a time deciding whether or not to take that upgrade (and if so, which of its options to choose from). You only make the choice once for each bullet point, but each choice may involve buying multiple upgrades at once.

(This is why you can't take up to three upgrades and then take up to three upgrades again.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Chopper Greg wrote:
Except that you are told to make three choices from a list without restriction to taking multiple single weapons of the same type, as you are explicitly forbidden to, in the 4th and 5th Ed Tau codex's.

That doesn't matter. Either lack of special restrictions means multiples of the same item can be taken (up to the number of total items allowed, may that be three or infinite) in every codex, or it doesn't. So if Tau can take three plasma rifles, them SM can take infinite number of HK missiles. There is not specific restriction for this in in SM codex.

The Fallacy here is that you have an inherent limit in the Space marine codex: "You may take any of the following:" and then there is a list, once you have selected an item from the list you have exhausted your permission for that particular item.

Case in point; you Take a HKM; You have now used up the permission to take the HKM as it was a single item of the list.

In the case of the Tau Weapons you are given the option to take 3 items, there is no restrictions stating you cannot make all 3 selections the same exact item, and you are given no qualifiers to take "any Item".

The Lottery ticket argument is fallacious for the same reason that taking 1000 darksun filters isn't an option oft taken; it does not help you in any way; furthermore while the computer may kick back a Power ball ticket with 7 13s; it is not expressly forbidden(just stupid). A Pick 3 however can be chosen as 6-6-6 because each number there is picked from a separate bin with all numbers available(also you are picking 3 numbers that are the same number and thus invalidates the argument).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
furthermore while the computer may kick back a Power ball ticket with 7 13s; it is not expressly forbidden(just stupid).

Off topic, but no, it isn't. A winning number with all 13s is exactly as likely as any other combination of numbers, the only "stupid" part would be that you're more likely to split the jackpot with other winners since all-13s is going to be a common pick.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
furthermore while the computer may kick back a Power ball ticket with 7 13s; it is not expressly forbidden(just stupid).

Off topic, but no, it isn't. A winning number with all 13s is exactly as likely as any other combination of numbers, the only "stupid" part would be that you're more likely to split the jackpot with other winners since all-13s is going to be a common pick.

It depends on the Lottery machine used and how the numbers are picked; the Power ball(or maybe it was mega Millions) that is available in Ohio uses a single machine filled with only 1 of each ball numbered 1- its maximum number; in that case it is entirely impossible to win on a ticket with all 13s. The more I think about it the more I am certain it is mega millions that uses that number selection method(and also has a much lower starting payoff, thus the higher odds of winning).

 Peregrine wrote:

There is a specific restriction, and it's in the formatting. You go down the options list one bullet point at a time deciding whether or not to take that upgrade (and if so, which of its options to choose from). You only make the choice once for each bullet point, but each choice may involve buying multiple upgrades at once.

The formatting in SM vehicle upgrades and in Tau weapon chart is pretty much identical.


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 Kommissar Kel wrote:

The Fallacy here is that you have an inherent limit in the Space marine codex: "You may take any of the following:" and then there is a list, once you have selected an item from the list you have exhausted your permission for that particular item.

Case in point; you Take a HKM; You have now used up the permission to take the HKM as it was a single item of the list.

Why? Tau weapons are exactly similarly single weapons on the list (except if they're twin-linked.)

In the case of the Tau Weapons you are given the option to take 3 items, there is no restrictions stating you cannot make all 3 selections the same exact item, and you are given no qualifiers to take "any Item".

There is no such restriction in SM book either! you just assume that there is, because we know that that's how it is supposed to work. SM codex gives no upper limit to total number of upgrades, Tau dex does. Neither affects the number of duplicate items you can take.

 Crimson wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

There is a specific restriction, and it's in the formatting. You go down the options list one bullet point at a time deciding whether or not to take that upgrade (and if so, which of its options to choose from). You only make the choice once for each bullet point, but each choice may involve buying multiple upgrades at once.

The formatting in SM vehicle upgrades and in Tau weapon chart is pretty much identical.

Unless we are just ignoring posts that clearly explain the differences...



No, still not even a little.

Space marine Codex is: "take any of the following"

Tau Vehicle entry permissions is: "May take items from the Vehicle gear List"

Tau Battle suits are: "May take 3 Items from ranged weapons and or Support systems lists"

For SM you are permitted to take each Item in only 1 Instance.

For Tau Vehicles you are allowed open-ended Plurality(that self regulates).

For Battlesuits you are allowed to make a set number of choices without any restriction other than those specified.

'Any' does not automatically denote one. If I can take any foods from the buffet table, I can take two cupcakes.

Also, wargear entries do not contain such wording, so even by your logic Captain can take unlimited amount of auxilary grenade launchers.

 Crimson wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

There is a specific restriction, and it's in the formatting. You go down the options list one bullet point at a time deciding whether or not to take that upgrade (and if so, which of its options to choose from). You only make the choice once for each bullet point, but each choice may involve buying multiple upgrades at once.

The formatting in SM vehicle upgrades and in Tau weapon chart is pretty much identical.

Exactly. Each bullet point in the options list can be taken (or declined) once and only once. Each bullet point may contain the ability to take multiple upgrades ("up to x models in the unit may ... ", "replace pistol and/or chainsword with ... ", "take up to six of the following", etc). So:

Tau can take two plasma rifles because the bullet point says "up to three choices" and there is no limit on choosing "single plasma rifle" two times in those three choices. However, you can NOT repeat the bullet point and take "up to three choices" a second time.

C:SM can NOT take multiple HK missiles because the bullet point only gives you one.

DA can NOT take multiple HK missiles because their Tau-style vehicle upgrades list specifically says "up to one".

Peregrine, why can I not select the same line item multiple times out of the SM codex but I can the Tau codex?

You have the option to pay 10 points for a hunter killer missile. If there is no limit on the number of times you can select an option in a list, then there is no reason you can't select the hunter killer multiple times - you have permission to take "any".

This is not different in any substantive way from the way the options in the Tau codex are presented.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can select items on options list once (unless otherwise specified), or you can select them any number of times.

The way I've always seen it done is the former: not once have I seen a rhino with 4 hunter-killers.

edit: I'm trying to be objective - I'm going to be playing Tau for the next while so I'm arguing against my best interests here. I just can't justify making the leap to allowing multiples of the same item when its not explicitly stated.

 Dracos wrote:
Peregrine, why can I not select the same line item multiple times out of the SM codex but I can the Tau codex?

Because you can NEVER select bullet points in the army list entry more than once. You CAN select items in a "choose from the following upgrades" table more than once, but marine armies either say explicitly "up to one" or the upgrades replace one of the model's existing items (so you can only replace something once).

You can't have it both ways. Either you can select items on options list once (unless otherwise specified), or you can select them any number of times.

It's not having it both ways, we're talking about two different things.

Options in the army list entry marked with a bullet point are taken (or declined) once and only once.

Options in a table of upgrades (where a bullet point item says "pick from the table") can be taken up to the stated limit (if any) on how many you may have.

 Peregrine wrote:

Options in the army list entry marked with a bullet point are taken (or declined) once and only once.

Options in a table of upgrades (where a bullet point item says "pick from the table") can be taken up to the stated limit (if any) on how many you may have.

Cite your source please.

 Dracos wrote:
Cite your source please.

The source for the first is overwhelming and undisputed precedent that it has worked that way for as long as I can remember. Demanding a source for this makes about as much sense as demanding a source for the rule that you can't play with loaded dice.

The source for the second is the table specifically saying how many times you may pick something from it. Some say "up to X items", some say "up to Y of each", some say "replace A and/or B with one of the following".

So basically you created a difference where none exists in the rules. : /


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember I agree with you that you can't take multiples. I just see no reason the Tau weapon list is any different.

 Dracos wrote:
So basically you created a difference where none exists in the rules. : /

No, there IS a difference in the rules. Let's say I have a table with some apples and pears on it. I tell you the following:

1) You may take up to three pieces of fruit.

2) You may take an apple.

3) You may replace your banana or orange with a piece of fruit from the table.

With option #1 you may take any of the following {apple}, {apple, apple, pear}, {apple, pear}, etc, since the only limit is that you can't exceed three items.

With option #2 you may take one apple, and unless you're deliberately trying to maliciously interpret my offer you aren't going to take a dozen apples and say "ha, I just picked the option twelve times".

With option #3 you can take {apple}, {apple, pear}, {pear, pear}, etc, but you can not take {apple, apple, pear} because you have run out of things to replace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dracos wrote:
Remember I agree with you that you can't take multiples. I just see no reason the Tau weapon list is any different.

It's different because the Tau codex explicitly states that the bullet point option (which you can only take once) grants you up to three sub-choices from the upgrade list, just like a single bullet point for a C:IG veteran squad lets you upgrade up to three models to carry special weapons and they don't have to be different ones.

That is not analogous. The analogue is

1)You may take up to three fruit from THE FRUIT LIST

2)You may take any of the following fruit from this list

Neither statement implies that you may take the same line item of fruit multiple times.

 Dracos wrote:
Neither statement implies that you may take the same line item of fruit multiple times.

Except #1 does imply that you can take it multiple times (up to the limit of three total). That's why, for example, the DA vehicle upgrade list explicitly says you can only take up to one of each item. Without that statement you could take an unlimited number of HK missiles. The Tau codex, on the other hand, does not contain any such statement.

I completely disagree. That is something you are inferring. The statement is completely neutral on the topic of taking multiple of the same items. It makes no reference one way or the other.

/shrug