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2013/04/08 16:43:54
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
azazel the cat wrote: I think Canada, Norway, Sweden, Germany and France would all disagree with you.
They're more than welcome to. I'm a libertarian, remember? I don't demand conformity.
And you whole "man is an island" bit? It's actually quite childish. And I don't mean that as an insult; I mean that in terms of psychological development. It's an earlier stage that honestly considered things so black & white as that, more akin to the mindsets of adolescents than adults.
Damn. I was hoping your amateur psychological evaluation would be more favorable. Can't win 'em all.
2013/04/08 16:44:12
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
And you whole "man is an island" bit? It's actually quite childish. And I don't mean that as an insult; I mean that in terms of psychological development. It's an earlier stage that honestly considered things so black & white as that, more akin to the mindsets of adolescents than adults.
I have found that it usually is a 50/50 mix of self delusion and wishful thinking.
People pretend that they have never benefited from public institutions and got here entirely on their own, and that they will never have any problems that they cannot solve themselves without any help.
I realize I have benifited from some public institutions, like roads and higher education subsidies. But I don't want the Government forcing me to buy something if I can't afford it or don't want it. Nor do I want them saying I can't buy a 36 oz soda.
They can regulate harmful drugs and criminal activity, as we the people have decided to define them. They can't criminalize something the Constitution explicitly allows, but they can strip the Constitutional rights of criminals.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
d-usa wrote: I have found that it usually is a 50/50 mix of self delusion and wishful thinking.
People pretend that they have never benefited from public institutions and got here entirely on their own, and that they will never have any problems that they cannot solve themselves without any help.
You really need that much government help to live your daily life? What do you find so debilitating that the only answer is trading autonomy for assistance, out of curiosity?
Apropos nothing, does anyone know what page that "what you do for a living" thread is on?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 16:50:18
2013/04/08 16:54:03
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
d-usa wrote: I have found that it usually is a 50/50 mix of self delusion and wishful thinking.
People pretend that they have never benefited from public institutions and got here entirely on their own, and that they will never have any problems that they cannot solve themselves without any help.
You really need that much government help to live your daily life? What do you find so debilitating that the only answer is trading autonomy for assistance, out of curiosity?
Apropos nothing, does anyone know what page that "what you do for a living" thread is on?
Cute, so just because I don't think that "every man is an island" fits and that people like to pretend that they never needed and never will need help means that I need the government to help me live my daily life?
You know when people ask you why you are scared of everything and constantly in fear for your life for you to carry a gun? Your question is just as dumb as that one.
Please try to make some sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 16:58:44
2013/04/08 16:55:49
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
I didn't know I was Scottish now. Where's my haggis!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/04/08 16:59:23
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Maybe he should have said "change human nature", which is impossible.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
d-usa wrote: Cute, so just because I don't think that "every man is an island" fits and that people like to pretend that they never needed and never will need help means that I need the government to help me live my daily life?
Sorry. I wasn't aware you were the only one allowed to make ridiculous hyperbole.
You know when people ask you why you are scared of everything and constantly in fear for your life for you to carry a gun? Your question is just as dumb as that one.
Not really. I was going with the trend established heretofore of deliberately misreading and exaggerating an opposing poster's claims in an effort to make my own beliefs look better, but the underlying theme is still relevant. What can you not do yourself that you need government assistance with?
Please try to make some sense.
I think that'd be considered derailing this thinly-veiled, "Let me tell you why socialism is great!" thread at this point.
You know when people ask you why you are scared of everything and constantly in fear for your life for you to carry a gun? Your question is just as dumb as that one.
Not really. I was going with the trend established heretofore of deliberately misreading and exaggerating an opposing poster's claims in an effort to make my own beliefs look better, but the underlying theme is still relevant. What can you not do yourself that you need government assistance with?
Right now this instance?
- I cannot maintain the roads leading from my house to my job. - I cannot put out my house if it is on fire while I am at work. - I cannot protect my wife while she is at home if somebody tries to break in. - I cannot inspect the factories where my wives prenatal vitamins are made, or the factory that manufactured the anti-viral drugs I took after a potential exposure to HIV at work. - I cannot inspect the slaughterhouse where the meat in my fridge came from.\ - I cannot make sure that everybody that does any work for me (from handyman to physician) is properly trained and licensed. - just some examples right there.
In the past?
- Received Pell Grants to help me pay for college. - Got my education in a State School. - Took advantage of the first time home owners tax credit. - Lived in low-income housing for a few months while I saved up money for a better place.
In the future?
- In the event I lose my job I would have unemployment and help with medical coverage for myself and my family.
What about you?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/08 17:22:02
2013/04/08 17:30:59
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
You know when people ask you why you are scared of everything and constantly in fear for your life for you to carry a gun? Your question is just as dumb as that one.
Not really. I was going with the trend established heretofore of deliberately misreading and exaggerating an opposing poster's claims in an effort to make my own beliefs look better, but the underlying theme is still relevant. What can you not do yourself that you need government assistance with?
Right now this instance?
- I cannot maintain the roads leading from my house to my job.
- I cannot put out my house if it is on fire while I am at work.
- I cannot protect my wife while she is at home if somebody tries to break in.
- I cannot inspect the factories where my wives prenatal vitamins are made, or the factory that manufactured the anti-viral drugs I took after a potential exposure to HIV at work.
- I cannot inspect the slaughterhouse where the meat in my fridge came from.\
- I cannot make sure that everybody that does any work for me (from handyman to physician) is properly trained and licensed.
- just some examples right there.
In the past?
- Received Pell Grants to help me pay for college.
- Got my education in a State School.
- Took advantage of the first time home owners tax credit.
- Lived in low-income housing for a few months while I saved up money for a better place.
In the future?
- In the event I lose my job I would have unemployment and help with medical coverage for myself and my family.
What about you?
I'm confused... what are we arguing about again?
I'm sure everyone has benefitted or was impacted by government (state/federal) programs/assistants throughout their lives...
I think the discussion boils down to is by how much and where.
- I cannot maintain the roads leading from my house to my job.
- I cannot put out my house if it is on fire while I am at work.
- I cannot protect my wife while she is at home if somebody tries to break in.
- I cannot inspect the factories where my wives prenatal vitamins are made, or the factory that manufactured the anti-viral drugs I took after a potential exposure to HIV at work.
- I cannot inspect the slaughterhouse where the meat in my fridge came from.\
- I cannot make sure that everybody that does any work for me (from handyman to physician) is properly trained and licensed.
- just some examples right there.
And most of them are the proper functions of government, that do not infringe on your liberty to do as you please within the bounds of the "as long as you're not hurting anyone" principal.
- Received Pell Grants to help me pay for college.
- Got my education in a State School.
- Took advantage of the first time home owners tax credit.
- Lived in low-income housing for a few months while I saved up money for a better place.
And these are where we get into sketchier areas of government purview.
In the future?
- In the event I lose my job I would have unemployment and help with medical coverage for myself and my family.
And this is right out.
What about you?
I swallowed up government cash like a sinkhole. To be fair, it was military money, so there was a little quid pro quo involved.
The "no man is an island" thing - which is, incidentally, being heavily abused from its original intent to make a hilariously unintended point about socialism - has, in fact, little enough to do with the stuff in the first bracket. We could be here all day with the stuff in the following two, but the point is this: government has a place in providing basic services, but even in that, it should not be blindly trusted. Concentrated power is dangerous stuff, and should be avoided as much as humanly possible. We can make do without a vast amount of what we have in terms of government services.
2013/04/08 18:10:49
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
I'll shorthand with 'the rise of the proletariat'.
So anyone who disagrees with you is a communist. Are you for real?
Thats not what he said or meant.
I believe what he meant is that these ideals put us at risk of slipping into a heavily socialist way of government, which is just about the worst thing that could happen. Its not an intentional conversion on the part of the proponents, but they may willfully ignore the danger they are causing.
Right. If history's shown us anything, it's that affluent welfare states ever lead to Stalinism. China, for instance, was just a hotbed of governmental charity and benevolence, then one day BAM: Maoists everywhere. And let's not forget the Czars and their notorious social welfare system, or Cuba with its socialist revolution backed by an affluent welfare state (the USA)...
2013/04/08 18:39:58
Subject: Re:Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
It's not hard to have a skeptical viewpoint anytime someone says "We know what's good for you... nothing to see here... move along."
Except that quite obviously wasn't what she was saying. She wasn't saying that they aren't your kids, but that they aren't solely your kids, and that people should think about children as a whole within a community, rather than just their own.
It's not hard to have a skeptical viewpoint anytime someone says "We know what's good for you... nothing to see here... move along."
Except that quite obviously wasn't what she was saying. She wasn't saying that they aren't your kids, but that they aren't solely your kids, and that people should think about children as a whole within a community, rather than just their own.
Do you have kids?
Still... no. The PRIMARY responsibility belongs to the Parents. End. Of. Story.
This idea of "shared responsibility" for these children doesn't work.
In practice, if the parent is responsible, then gak gets taken care of.
If "we're all responsible," then no one is responsible, and gak doesn't get taken care of due to the lack of accountability.
"We're all responsible" is not a slogan for increasing the responsibility of all... it's a formula for decreasing everyone's responsibility, and also reducing the responsibility of those who are actually responsible.
It's a parenting mindset that our modern society is drifting away from, imo.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/04/08 19:06:19
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
I swallowed up government cash like a sinkhole. To be fair, it was military money, so there was a little quid pro quo involved.
So you worked in the military? The most socialist mechanism of the entire US government?
And you want to call me a leftie, whatever comrade. I work in corporate management, like a good and decent capitalist.
Okay... now I'm really confused (common theme today... must be monday).
How on earth can you say the US Military is equivalent to Socialism "anything"???
The closest I can come up to is maybe the VA Administrations?
It's a government run institution, if you apply the ruling that tax funded healthcare, education, eldercare, welfare or any other government owned or provided service is socialism, as seaward did in a prior response to me, then the military, existing in precisely the same way, is a qualifier as a socialist arm of the government. If you believe the government is a potential for tyranny, there is it's strong arm for all to see, the military complex, the force it would use to suppress the individual and steal away freedom. Billions of taxpayer dollars go into the military and are used to indulge in 'foreign ventures' that no libertarian would support.
The military in the US is utterly a socialist body, it's certainly not private business. If it were truly capitalist it would be a series of businesses and if it were libertarian, we'd just protect our own front doors from the enemy.
2013/04/08 19:28:00
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
I think the real question is, in Libertaria, do the coconut eating TRexes taste like commie pinko chicken, or red blooded freedom loving turkey?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/04/08 19:39:41
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Morality is a reflection of the society around you. Heck, you have a whole bunch of laws regarding morality right there in the US.
Seaward wrote: You can't control human nature through legislation.
I'm sorry, but whaaaaaaaaat?
That is the entire purpose of laws, to control unwanted and socially unacceptable human behaviour...
Exalt.
Seaward, you are required to obey laws and display behaviors appropriate to the morality and approval of the will of those around you. The masses dictate what is right and wrong, not you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 19:40:53
2013/04/08 19:41:48
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Frazzled wrote: I think the real question is, in Libertaria, do the coconut eating TRexes taste like commie pinko chicken, or red blooded freedom loving turkey?
I eat eagle because it tastes like freedom and dreams. Delicious real eagle, not any liberal, wet falcon or buzzard, but EAGLE.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlapBlapBlap wrote: I don't get what any of you do in the States. All I know is that some idiots in your country belief they deserve guns because they beat back the British from "America" (not really, just a few colonies).
Plus according to those same idiots the United Kingdom wants to control them and is full of Communists.
Ah, the joys of comments sections...
What relevance does any of that have to the topic this thread is about?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 19:43:46
2013/04/08 19:50:49
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Frazzled wrote: I think the real question is, in Libertaria, do the coconut eating TRexes taste like commie pinko chicken, or red blooded freedom loving turkey?
I eat eagle because it tastes like freedom and dreams. Delicious real eagle, not any liberal, wet falcon or buzzard, but EAGLE.
I am not worthy!
Frazzled's take. Libertarians, like everyone else, come in a range. The philosophy extends from those who prefer local government control wherever possible vs. large state control and that government shouldn't be used to subsidize business, to the Ann Rynd crowd.
Personally, I'm a Bill of Rights nut, who prefers local control over state and federal control - that each have their preferred spheres. I also don't want daddy do rights telling me what to when its not harming them. But I also belive in an efficient public medical system; a 2 year welfare system that promotes getting the skills and desire to get off welfare; equal opportunity education for all; state and federal R&D; good roads and good beer. But as long as what I am doing stops before it impacts you, leave me alone, and vice versa.
Frankly most of that just used to be called being a conservative Democrat, but my party left behind a long long time ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: For the record I despise all children, I don't want responsibility for your useless and disgusting offspring. The village can feth right off.
Children are evil, except for mine (sometimes).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 19:51:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/04/08 19:56:17
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Frazzled wrote: I think the real question is, in Libertaria, do the coconut eating TRexes taste like commie pinko chicken, or red blooded freedom loving turkey?
And, can they run faster than me, until I am full of beef in brandy sauce and stilton cheese?
Mmm....ancient Kiowa saying: Killkrazy runs (ok staggers would be more appropriate) for his supper. The TRex runs for his life...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 20:05:11
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/04/08 20:11:35
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
Seaward wrote: And most of them are the proper functions of government, that do not infringe on your liberty to do as you please within the bounds of the "as long as you're not hurting anyone" principal.
I'd just like to point out that while you personally might believe these things are acceptable many libertarians do not. I can't even count the number of times I've had a self-described libertarian tell me that police/fire service should be abolished (you as a private citizen should be free to choose whether or not to purchase fire/police service from a private company of your choice, not taxed for it automatically), regulations like food safety/professional licensing/etc are oppressive and should be abolished (in a truly free market nobody will buy from businesses that don't meet reasonable standards so they will be forced to behave or go out of business), etc.
And these are where we get into sketchier areas of government purview.
I don't see how these are sketchy at all. Society has a legitimate interest in encouraging certain things (college education to provide skilled workers and advance society as a whole, home ownership, etc) and the best way to do that is through government support.
- In the event I lose my job I would have unemployment and help with medical coverage for myself and my family.
And this is right out.
So where do you think that this kind of protection should come from? Or are you a social darwinist who thinks that anyone who doesn't work should be left to die?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2013/04/08 20:13:17
Subject: Question for Libertarians. Brit living in the States.
I swallowed up government cash like a sinkhole. To be fair, it was military money, so there was a little quid pro quo involved.
So you worked in the military? The most socialist mechanism of the entire US government?
And you want to call me a leftie, whatever comrade. I work in corporate management, like a good and decent capitalist.
Okay... now I'm really confused (common theme today... must be monday).
How on earth can you say the US Military is equivalent to Socialism "anything"???
The closest I can come up to is maybe the VA Administrations?
It's a government run institution, if you apply the ruling that tax funded healthcare, education, eldercare, welfare or any other government owned or provided service is socialism, as seaward did in a prior response to me, then the military, existing in precisely the same way, is a qualifier as a socialist arm of the government. If you believe the government is a potential for tyranny, there is it's strong arm for all to see, the military complex, the force it would use to suppress the individual and steal away freedom. Billions of taxpayer dollars go into the military and are used to indulge in 'foreign ventures' that no libertarian would support.
The military in the US is utterly a socialist body, it's certainly not private business. If it were truly capitalist it would be a series of businesses and if it were libertarian, we'd just protect our own front doors from the enemy.
I can see that sentiment... although, I'm not sure I would classify the US Military on the same wavelength as social services, such as Social Security and Medicare.
