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Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






If you want to treat speculation as facts be my guest, however speculation is just that - speculation.

 Hesh_Tank_On wrote:
Was this really needed? As we are going off topic feel free to continue in PM's .

You brought the facts into issue, thus diverting the thread, and then decided it was best to ignore them when challenged. You know where to find me if you want to continue this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/09 19:08:00


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Albatross wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
He's saying that she was so *evil that as long as people continue thinking about her she'll continue having power over them. In no way is he implying that he laments her death or thinks its anything but a good thing for his country I don't think. He outlived her, so I guess he'd get the last laugh on the matter, that is if he'd bother to indulge the woman. =P

Presumably NI protestants will be dancing in the streets when he finally meets his long-deserved end. I wonder what you'd make of that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think British society has undeniably become less equal than it was 50 years ago.

It's also more prosperous. When young 'underprivileged' rioters are filming their exploits on smart-phones, yet still pleading poverty, you know something's not quite right. I still remember when we got our first VHS player. It was an event.


Couldn't afford any tapes, mind.


Consumer electronics is one of the few things that rapidly deflates in price. Try buying a house?


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Albatross wrote:
Why is equality for its own sake a good thing?


It tends to create political stability.

 AndrewC wrote:

The death of Thatcher is not a cause of celebration.


It isn't as though she was affecting policy.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Regardless of what his own personal and private thoughts may be, the fact that he can treat someone who may be considered at one point a mortal enemy with a class and decency beyond many others is quite telling.


So you're impressed by the fact that a politician can act like a politician?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/09 21:03:35


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Perth/Glasgow

I didn't particularly like quite a few of her policies but she got some things right in my opinion

In possibly related news
Spoiler:

Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Albatross wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
He's saying that she was so *evil that as long as people continue thinking about her she'll continue having power over them. In no way is he implying that he laments her death or thinks its anything but a good thing for his country I don't think. He outlived her, so I guess he'd get the last laugh on the matter, that is if he'd bother to indulge the woman. =P

Presumably NI protestants will be dancing in the streets when he finally meets his long-deserved end. I wonder what you'd make of that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think British society has undeniably become less equal than it was 50 years ago.

It's also more prosperous. When young 'underprivileged' rioters are filming their exploits on smart-phones, yet still pleading poverty, you know something's not quite right. I still remember when we got our first VHS player. It was an event.


Couldn't afford any tapes, mind.


Consumer electronics is one of the few things that rapidly deflates in price. Try buying a house?


Because they don't rapidly deflate in price? Where've you been?

I do co-own a house, incidentally. My mum owns one too now. She bought her council house. Cheers, Maggie!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Seaward wrote:
 Albatross wrote:
It's also more prosperous. When young 'underprivileged' rioters are filming their exploits on smart-phones, yet still pleading poverty, you know something's not quite right. I still remember when we got our first VHS player. It was an event.


Couldn't afford any tapes, mind.

Hey, welcome to the ranks of anarcho-capitalist Tea Party types, by the way.

I'm a member of the conservative party (i.e. Thatcher's party) here in the UK. I'm basically the closest thing we have to libertarian here. We're just not nutters like the some of the folks you have over there!

We're more pragmatic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if the UK government had wanted McGuinness dead, he would be dead.

He wasn't exactly bin Laden in terms of keeping a low profile.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/09 21:59:58


 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Zealous Shaolin




England

I wouldn't wish dementia on anybody.

Living to 87, however, is far, far more than she deserved. A great many people had no chance of making it anywhere near that age as a direct result of her callous disregard for some of the most vulnerable (and expendable) members of our society.

Personally, I'll remember her most strongly for Section 28, and all those who suffered and even died as a result of Thatcher enshrining in law the cessation of advancement in LGBT rights. The same law which set up legal barriers against schools tackling homophobic or transphobic bullying, or even doing anything whatsoever to help vulnerable LGBT kids.

I'll avoid dancing in the street (it's just not classy), but my loathing of her hasn't softened one iota in her passing.
   
Made in fk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

 dogma wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:

The death of Thatcher is not a cause of celebration.


It isn't as though she was affecting policy.


Not sure what you're saying Dogma, You may be quoting me out of context, I was just trying to say that celebrating the death of an individual is in extremely poor taste. But elaboration would be appreciated

If that came across poorly because of the additional text written you have my apologies. I was trying to make the point that rather than complain about how badly people were treated, it is better to go out and make a difference. Some of the points made by Wyrmalla sounds like it came from Strathclyde Uni Students Union bar on a Saturday night.

Cheers

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 AndrewC wrote:

Not sure what you're saying Dogma, You may be quoting me out of context, I was just trying to say that celebrating the death of an individual is in extremely poor taste. But elaboration would be appreciated


I was agreeing with you. It is in poor taste to celebrate the passing of a person who is no longer relevant within her field. Had Baroness Thatcher died in the late 80's when she was directing policy the celebration would, while still unseemly, be understandable.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in gb
Nimble Goblin Wolf Rider





North Ayrshire, Scotland

For the Thatcher fans who express contempt for all of us who hated her, you need to understand there are very real reasons why we do. Pompous statements about her supposed international achievements, the Thatcher fan default fall back position matter for naught.

My Granddad served in the home guard, sent two of his sons off to the Falklands to fight for this country, then he and another two of his sons were made redundant by Her Government. When the “profitable“ mine closes in a mining village, you remove the reason the place existed in the first place.

How would you feel if the Government fired you for no good reason, not just you but most of the people you know. Imagine what would happen to were you live if most of workers were made redundant over night. For many thousands of people the Thatcher years were utter s**t, thats why she is hated.

If any one can be arsed to watch heres a documentary on the closure of the pit in my home town. I have a cameo at the end













This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 07:19:18


 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 cpt_fishcakes wrote:
For the Thatcher fans who express contempt for all of us who hated her, you need to understand there are very real reasons why we do. Pompous statements about her supposed international achievements, the Thatcher fan default fall back position matter for naught.

My Granddad served in the home guard, sent two of his sons off to the Falklands to fight for this country, then he and another two of his sons were made redundant by Her Government. When the “profitable“ mine closes in a mining village, you remove the reason the place existed in the first place.

How would you feel if the Government fired you for no good reason, not just you but most of the people you know. Imagine what would happen to were you live if most of workers were made redundant over night. For many thousands of people the Thatcher years were utter s**t, thats why she is hated.

If any one can be arsed to watch heres a documentary on the closure of the pit in my home town. I have a cameo at the end


The problem is that it is all BS. The argument of the mines being profitable is nonsense. Some of them were profitable when they were closed, but only show a short term profit. I keep hearing "they made a profit the year they closed". That is not the same as being profitable. Those that were profitable long term stayed open under new owners. If coal miners had been willing to modernise and make changes in an orderly way the transition would have been handled much better but they brought it on themselves. After 15 years of industrial action and militancy they were unwilling to do anything different.

The Thatcher years were gak for many because they felt the government owed them. I keep hearing on TV statements like "she closed the mines because of the 1973 election defeat" and other such BS. Nonsense. Noone has been able to produce any facts to show that the mines that were closed were profitable long term. Whilst the closures may not have been handled very well they had to be done and both sides were at fault, but there is only one side that refuses to realise they did anything wrong...

If it was tell me this, why did noone re-open the mine, like they did with Maltby, Welbeck, Dawn Mill, Harworth (which is due to reopen soon)etc...?

Let us not forget the number of businesses destroyed by the miners in the 70s & 80s with three day weeks and distruction of economy's.

Oh, and I haven't lost my job for "no good reason" but I have come dam close when local government budgets were changed and priorities shifted. I also lived in a mining area for 21 years of my life from 1980 to 2001. I do know what it's like.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/10 08:40:08


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in gb
Nimble Goblin Wolf Rider





North Ayrshire, Scotland

"because they felt the government owed them "

Stupid statement, I shall not take that bate

What the hell is wrong with people wanting to work? How does removing there jobs and there money, the driving force of whole community’s. How did that benefit the nation?
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





It is not a stupid statement. The unions felt the government should continue to subsidise mining, car making, ship building, steel making and other heavy industry.

You show it yourself in your own statement. You equate your family members involvement in the home guard and army with your other family members right to work in a mine.

The fact is that the mines, whilst on there own some may have been profitable, overall they were loosing massive amounts of money. The miners felt that this should continue and they should continue to be paid through taxes rather than profit. It is wrong that people think the govenment should continue to pay them to do an unneeded job rather than them do something else. That is thinking the govenment owes them a living.

How dose subisdising dirty outdated industry (not just mining) benefit the nation?

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Lincolnshire

Being very much to the left in politics myself i am not really going to mourn the passing of Thatcher, though i am not going to go out and join in a street party, that to me only damages the lefts cause. If we present ourselves as a 'morale' socialist alternative then really we cannot celebrate anyone's death especially when half the people celebrating are to young to rightly remember her influence.

As for the miners strike, i never really believed the unions were acting entirely in the workers interest if it all, as such i felt something did need to be done. Privatisation not necessarily a bad move but it has been done quite badly, it does not seem entirely in the British nature to embrace competition. What i really object to about the strikes is the way the police were used almost as troops, not to uphold the law or peace but to smash a movement.

Obviously poll tax was a bit of a disaster, but ultimately i think the most damaging thing was her deregulation of the banks and financial industries.

Oh and i think in the end the way she lost power to pretty much an internal struggle has left the conservatives somewhat weaker then before, just like Labour now they seem to relish leadership challenges at the smallest hurdles.

Though i have to say at this point somewhat OT that John Major did do a pretty good job of rescuing the economy and setting it up nicely for Blair.

So my personal opinions of her politics aside i wish her family the best, and most of all hope the funeral goes well without to much of the lunatic fringe from my side of politics turning up.

Incidentally i was glad although she is getting full military honors that it is not a state funeral. She upset to many people for that.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Steve steveson wrote:
It is not a stupid statement. The unions felt the government should continue to subsidise mining, car making, ship building, steel making and other heavy industry.

You show it yourself in your own statement. You equate your family members involvement in the home guard and army with your other family members right to work in a mine.

The fact is that the mines, whilst on there own some may have been profitable, overall they were loosing massive amounts of money. The miners felt that this should continue and they should continue to be paid through taxes rather than profit. It is wrong that people think the govenment should continue to pay them to do an unneeded job rather than them do something else. That is thinking the govenment owes them a living.

How dose subisdising dirty outdated industry (not just mining) benefit the nation?


Industry these days is massively more subsidised, it just isn't as overt. Tax credits, corporation tax has seen a constant reduction, the common agricultural policy and other EU subsidies and of course a free workforce in lieu of actually having to pay wages anymore. Except of course any profits made from such ventures goes into private hands. The free market principles of the Conservative party, if actually applied, would see the majority of British businesses close or have to massively restructure and see vastly reduced profits.

My views on Thatcher are that she was an idealist, and although I don't agree with her ideals, I wouldn't want an idealist in charge who I did agree with. To rule a nation of millions you need to seek compromise, placing your ideals ahead of the good of the people is not what governing should be about and will just disenfranchise and alienate vast swaths of the population. She didn't seek the diplomatic option, but instead sought to be seen as overpowering and uncompromising in all things. People praise her for that, but that is not how to build a decent society for everyone, it is the way that tyrants act. Although she would know all about tyrants with the ties to Pinochet, Apartheid and Saddam Hussien.

I didn't celebrate her death, she was just an old woman with dementia whose family weren't around. I will (as others have said) happily celebrate the day her ideology dies, that is the poison that infects our society. It is quite disgusting how easily this government has treated the most vulnerable and got away with it, we are up to 30 suicides directly caused by recent welfare reform and violent attacks on the disabled are higher than ever before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 11:41:52


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

How has recent welfare reform directly led to the suicide of 30 people?

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 Albatross wrote:
How has recent welfare reform directly led to the suicide of 30 people?


5 examples are as follows



Would you like links to the other 25? In every single case there is a level of culpability on welfare reform.


 Albatross wrote:

My mum owns one too now. She bought her council house. Cheers, Maggie!


I'm not sure the 1.8 million households on the social housing waiting list would be giving thumbs up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 11:47:17


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 cpt_fishcakes wrote:
For the Thatcher fans who express contempt for all of us who hated her, you need to understand there are very real reasons why we do. Pompous statements about her supposed international achievements, the Thatcher fan default fall back position matter for naught.

My Granddad served in the home guard, sent two of his sons off to the Falklands to fight for this country, then he and another two of his sons were made redundant by Her Government. When the “profitable“ mine closes in a mining village, you remove the reason the place existed in the first place.

How would you feel if the Government fired you for no good reason, not just you but most of the people you know. Imagine what would happen to were you live if most of workers were made redundant over night. For many thousands of people the Thatcher years were utter s**t, thats why she is hated.

If any one can be arsed to watch heres a documentary on the closure of the pit in my home town. I have a cameo at the end















Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Perth/Glasgow

The problem was the coal miners funded the local economy with the miners wages who would go on to spend them in the towns and villages. When they lost their jobs all the shops etc in their villages lost a lot of income forcing them to close which meant a lot of mining towns were devastated and this caused poverty

Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

 dæl wrote:
 Albatross wrote:
How has recent welfare reform directly led to the suicide of 30 people?


5 examples are as follows

Richard Sanderson

Mr. Sanderson had already attempted suicide back in 2010 and was subsequently sectioned, according to the link you posted. His housing benefit was being cut by £30. Hardly insurmountable.


Mr. Reekie was suffering from depression.


The first line of the article you posted reads 'A man with mental health problems..'. Next.


Depression again.


This one is fairly dodgy, to be honest. The article doesn't state the nature of Mrs. Christian's 'spiralling health problems', but it's a fair assumption that depression was one of them, given the circumstances of her death. If it wasn't murder. Read the article closely.

Would you like links to the other 25? In every single case there is a level of culpability on welfare reform.

Yeah, I'm not sure mentally ill people being 'worried' about attending health-checks to determine ability to work qualifies as 'culpability' on the part of the coalition government insofar as these tragic deaths are concerned. I've been looking for full-time work for nearly six months (finally sorted that, btw), and I've managed not to kill myself. People should be tested to see if they can work before we hand them thousands of pounds in benefits. It's not like we have a blank cheque for everyone. Are you trying to claim that people didn't kill themselves under the old system, which iirc utilised health-checks to determine a claimant's ability to work?

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






Yorkshire, England

MPs can claim up to £3,750 on expenses to fly home to pay tribute to Baroness Thatcher in the Commons... horrible greedy pigs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 12:17:11


 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 Albatross wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sure mentally ill people being 'worried' about attending health-checks to determine ability to work qualifies as 'culpability' on the part of the coalition government insofar as these tragic deaths are concerned. I've been looking for full-time work for nearly six months (finally sorted that, btw), and I've managed not to kill myself. People should be tested to see if they can work before we hand them thousands of pounds in benefits. It's not like we have a blank cheque for everyone. Are you trying to claim that people didn't kill themselves under the old system, which iirc utilised health-checks to determine a claimant's ability to work?


So your claim is that what? They were vulnerable people threatened with homelessness and destitution but would have probably killed themselves anyway at some point so threatening them with homelessness and destitution was immaterial? One third of the population will suffer from some form of mental illness, but nowhere near that number will commit suicide, you cannot just make some hand waving statement about depression (which of course is a factor) but ignore the immediate issues that person is faced with.

Work Capability Assessments carried out by the private firm Atos are notoriously awful, the BMC say it is unfit for purpose and you have a number of ridiculous cases such as the one where a man in a coma was found fit for work. I have no issue with assessing the capability of a disabled person, I do have a problem with paying by results to find people fit regardless of the human cost.

EDIT: Congrats on job btw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 12:28:16


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

 dæl wrote:
 Albatross wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sure mentally ill people being 'worried' about attending health-checks to determine ability to work qualifies as 'culpability' on the part of the coalition government insofar as these tragic deaths are concerned. I've been looking for full-time work for nearly six months (finally sorted that, btw), and I've managed not to kill myself. People should be tested to see if they can work before we hand them thousands of pounds in benefits. It's not like we have a blank cheque for everyone. Are you trying to claim that people didn't kill themselves under the old system, which iirc utilised health-checks to determine a claimant's ability to work?


So your claim is that what? They were vulnerable people threatened with homelessness and destitution but would have probably killed themselves anyway at some point so threatening them with homelessness and destitution was immaterial?

Um, no. That's not what I said. What I'm saying is that they were, in almost all of the cases you cited, threatened with a health assessment and that their conditions unfortunately led to them being unable to deal with the prospect of that, thanks in no small part to the scaremongering of people such as yourself incidentally. The perception created by by the left in this country is that the government is hell-bent on persecuting vulnerable people and casting them out into the street. That is monstrously unfair, and as you have shown, can have deadly consequences. Every single one of those people could have found some form of work to support themselves. They would not have benefited from sitting 'on the sick'. No-one is trying to take money or housing from them, because it isn't their money or housing to take, it is the State's, to give out as it sees fit. That's the problem with relying on the State - you are dependent on the vagaries of the national finances. When times are tight, belts have to be tightened, which means making sure that everyone who is receiving benefits is genuinely entitled to them, which in the case of Disability Living Allowance or Incapacity Benefit means inability to work or find work due to their physical or mental condition. A person with depression can work, so they should, and should be supported in their endeavours. What is so objectionable about that?


One third of the population will suffer from some form of mental illness, but nowhere near that number will commit suicide, you cannot just make some hand waving statement about depression (which of course is a factor) but ignore the immediate issues that person is faced with.

I'm not actually. I'm doing quite the opposite. It is in fact you who is doing the 'handwaving' ('Oh, it's all the fault of the evil Tories'), ignoring the context within which these incidents were situated. People kill themselves for a variety of reasons. You can't legislate for them all. Iraq war veterans kill themselves sometimes. Is that Tony Blair's fault?

Work Capability Assessments carried out by the private firm Atos are notoriously awful, the BMC say it is unfit for purpose and you have a number of ridiculous cases such as the one where a man in a coma was found fit for work.

It's funny, when people cite exceptional abuses of the welfare system as evidence that it's broken, people such as yourself often say 'oh, that's an outlier, the vast majority of benefit claimants are honest etc.' Just an interesting point.

EDIT: Congrats on job btw.

Spare me your false magnanimity please. I find it to be condescending.

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.


Job training?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

 Frazzled wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.


Job training?


Wasn't given. The miners were left on their own.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Mr Hyena wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.


Job training?


Wasn't given. The miners were left on their own.

So... you think it's the government job to provide employment?

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

 whembly wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.


Job training?


Wasn't given. The miners were left on their own.

So... you think it's the government job to provide employment?


If they are going to get involved with an industry that is the sole source of income for a town, then yes, they should do something to assist those who will be put into poverty and unemployment.

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The big problem with Britain in the past 30 years is that private industry hasn't provided employment.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Albatross wrote:
 dæl wrote:
 Albatross wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sure mentally ill people being 'worried' about attending health-checks to determine ability to work qualifies as 'culpability' on the part of the coalition government insofar as these tragic deaths are concerned. I've been looking for full-time work for nearly six months (finally sorted that, btw), and I've managed not to kill myself. People should be tested to see if they can work before we hand them thousands of pounds in benefits. It's not like we have a blank cheque for everyone. Are you trying to claim that people didn't kill themselves under the old system, which iirc utilised health-checks to determine a claimant's ability to work?


So your claim is that what? They were vulnerable people threatened with homelessness and destitution but would have probably killed themselves anyway at some point so threatening them with homelessness and destitution was immaterial?

Um, no. That's not what I said. What I'm saying is that they were, in almost all of the cases you cited, threatened with a health assessment and that their conditions unfortunately led to them being unable to deal with the prospect of that, thanks in no small part to the scaremongering of people such as yourself incidentally. The perception created by by the left in this country is that the government is hell-bent on persecuting vulnerable people and casting them out into the street. That is monstrously unfair, and as you have shown, can have deadly consequences. Every single one of those people could have found some form of work to support themselves. They would not have benefited from sitting 'on the sick'. No-one is trying to take money or housing from them, because it isn't their money or housing to take, it is the State's, to give out as it sees fit. That's the problem with relying on the State - you are dependent on the vagaries of the national finances. When times are tight, belts have to be tightened, which means making sure that everyone who is receiving benefits is genuinely entitled to them, which in the case of Disability Living Allowance or Incapacity Benefit means inability to work or find work due to their physical or mental condition. A person with depression can work, so they should, and should be supported in their endeavours. What is so objectionable about that?


Ah that immortal line of "we are helping people by taking away their means of feeding themselves." It really doesn't wash sorry, we live in a country with a National Insurance scheme, should any of us become disabled we should expect to be looked after, it is the mark of a civilised society that we have a safety net. As I have said I am all for assessment of the disabled, but by professionals who have taken the hippocratic oath to do no harm, not a private company paid by results.

The claim I am culpable for a suicide by being outraged by it is somewhat paradoxical. The "left's" scaremongering isn't what pushed these people over the edge, the letters they got saying their homes and only source of income are being taken away had far more to do with it.

Yes a person with non severe depression can work. But what about the 800 MS sufferers declared fit for work? Or the 5000 with cancer, including 10 malignant brain tumors? Or the thousand odd with schizophrenia? And this is if they are able to find work in this country, which is difficult enough for a healthy person.

And it is their housing and money, it's all of ours. The State exists to serve its people, not the other way around.
One third of the population will suffer from some form of mental illness, but nowhere near that number will commit suicide, you cannot just make some hand waving statement about depression (which of course is a factor) but ignore the immediate issues that person is faced with.

I'm not actually. I'm doing quite the opposite. It is in fact you who is doing the 'handwaving' ('Oh, it's all the fault of the evil Tories'), ignoring the context within which these incidents were situated. People kill themselves for a variety of reasons. You can't legislate for them all. Iraq war veterans kill themselves sometimes. Is that Tony Blair's fault?


In part yes, it is partly Blair's fault. But the reason for that is twofold, firstly we have the war itself, but a far greater crime in my eyes is the lack of support given to soldiers returning to civilian life. As Prime Minister for so long he had ample opportunity to create such a support system.

Work Capability Assessments carried out by the private firm Atos are notoriously awful, the BMC say it is unfit for purpose and you have a number of ridiculous cases such as the one where a man in a coma was found fit for work.

It's funny, when people cite exceptional abuses of the welfare system as evidence that it's broken, people such as yourself often say 'oh, that's an outlier, the vast majority of benefit claimants are honest etc.' Just an interesting point.


Benefit fraud is less than one percent, Atos appeals are at 70% of which 40% are successful. There's a bit of a difference in the numbers there.

EDIT: Congrats on job btw.

Spare me your false magnanimity please. I find it to be condescending.

It was actually genuine, hence why I went back and edited my reply. Disagreeing with you does not mean I wish you ill, but whatever.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Mr Hyena wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Wait, these puits are coal mines no? You're raging about closing an inefficient coal mine? Have you ever been in a coal mine? The suck level is a 9.8. My grandfather ran away as a teenager to the sea just to escape a life in the coal mines.

Thats like bitching that they closed down the local trash dump becuase people used to pick through it.


Closing it wasnt the problem.

Closing it with NO replacement for the local economy in the area, which means no jobs for the miners WAS the problem. Ending up with a huuuuuuuge amount of guys who could work with no jobs to go to nor any hope of any.


Job training?


Wasn't given. The miners were left on their own.

So... you think it's the government job to provide employment?


If they are going to get involved with an industry that is the sole source of income for a town, then yes, they should do something to assist those who will be put into poverty and unemployment.


I agree with that actually.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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