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D6Damager wrote:
At first I was really excited, but then as I started writing lists the army still suffers from its old problems that just made them not fun anymore.

1) Fragile troops that will have a difficult time holding objectives.

2) There's still no answer to tough and or fast assault units running completely through a foot list.

...which leads to.

3) The devilfish is still overpriced and terrible which seriously hampers movement and troop protection. Even "Mech Tau" has limited mobility now they cannot fire as fast skimmers.


I'm fairly certain a lot can be mitigated with allies but I don't see their strength as a primary army. All they have going for them is numerous AA options.Which means they will probably be relegated as allies in most competitive lists by the end of this year.

This is something I saw as well. I see more of a codex built arround provoding units better used as allies for other armies than a codex that stands by itself.

I have played the codex quite a bit and it has its cool parts, but I feel like it is a thin luster of something new that keeps me playing than feilding combinations that can hold an army together.

It feels to me that the Tau got both a bath and a new suit to impress people, but also castrated in its ability to hold together as another 10 year finnesse codex.

jazzpaintball wrote:


This is something I saw as well. I see more of a codex built arround provoding units better used as allies for other armies than a codex that stands by itself.

Maybe this is what I've been trying to put my proverbial finger on. I stated earlier in the thread that the codex feels somewhat unfinished, maybe even rushed, to me. It just seems incomplete; like there's one or two things that are missing to make it complete. I know GW's pushing allies this edition but I'd rather field a singular force than resort to filling gaps with other armies' troops.

Don't get me wrong, the codex isn't a complete wash and we'll be able to win with it but it's just a little disappointing and could have been better executed in my opinion. In addition all the giving with one hand and taking with another feels patronizing to me, "Here we've added an extra shot onto BCs and SMSs but you can't fire both if you move your devilfish." It all goes back to my main complaint; the army isn't mobile enough even though the entire fluff of the army speaks to mobility. I'd even argue that Blood Angels are a more mobile force though not a shooty one and Necrons can outshoot Tau now albeit with less range. Another thing where fluff doesn't match the book is that Tau are supposed to be completely mechanized but they designed rules whereby you're most effective shooting is outside of a vehicle when you don't move and you can take a maximum of three tanks.

Ah well. I still like the aesthetic of the army and I'm going to learn how to play them with the new rules; I'm just disappointed in that I feel that the refresh could have been better and more thoroughly executed than just a tweak here, a point reduction there and some truly silly options (really, the burst cannon and SMS on the hammerhead? Who in their right mind would take the burst cannon?).

I have strongly mixed feelings about this codex. On one hand its nice to be able to decisively kill a wide range of units that would have stubbornly withstood considerable firepower before thanks so some of the new large blast and cheaper markerlights. And some units, such as Kroot, have surprised me as to how lethal they are, even if I am still irked that lost their str 4 in cc. We also have good special characters now and some interesting new options from the signature systems.

On the other hand, Vetock has gutted a large degree of mobility. No vehicle multitrackers, no A.S.S., overpriced devilfish, crappy flyers and restricted access to fast attack options due to the need to field markerlights all equate to a Tau force that is far less nimble on the battlefield, and you really have to fight the codex (or just take allies or use the codex as allies) to make the maneuver warfare Tau used to be excellent at still work. I really get the sense that Vetock did not really understand how or why the old Tau army worked, its almost like he designed the codex from second hand experience playing or playing against the Tau. All the most obvious aspects of the Tau are there, the battlesuits are stronger than ever, as are the markerlights and the emphasis on heavy power along with the close combat weakness. But the more subtle aspects, such as the maneuver warfare, have been lost in this update, and other longstanding problems such as overpriced devilfish and vespids, have not been addressed.

Also, the force org chart is a mess: pathfinders really should have been moved to troops (this would have helped the army a lot by freeing of the fast attack slots) along with drone squads, allowing better access to piranha, vespids and the flyers. The riptide really seems to belong in heavy support, and would have provided an excellent HS choice for those wanting to build a more mobile force. And for an army that now practically revolves around markerlights, insufficient thought was given to them. Case in point is the marker drones, which provide neither networked markerlights nor target locks, making in necessary to spend several hardpoints and a considerable number of points on target locks for any unit that takes them as an upgrade.

Phanixis wrote:
I
Also, the force org chart is a mess: pathfinders really should have been moved to troops (this would have helped the army a lot by freeing of the fast attack slots) along with drone squads, allowing better access to piranha, vespids and the flyers. The riptide really seems to belong in heavy support, and would have provided an excellent HS choice for those wanting to build a more mobile force. And for an army that now practically revolves around markerlights, insufficient thought was given to them. Case in point is the marker drones, which provide neither networked markerlights nor target locks, making in necessary to spend several hardpoints and a considerable number of points on target locks for any unit that takes them as an upgrade.

Drones definitely could have migrated to troops.

If pathfinders were troops then that's all anyone would ever take. They really should have just merged Pathfinders with Firewarriors and called it a day. This would have given Tau the Flexibility in the Troops section that they need.

I also think the 12 man cap on Firewarriors is lame. As easily as they die, thats just not enough bodies to be useful as a scoring unit. I predict we will see 6 carbines in a devilfish held in reserves for objective grabbing in competitve lists and even that is pretty fragile in today's competitive meta.

Ultimately time will tell especially once the 5th ed cheese dexes get redone (looking at you Necrons, Grey Knights, Guard etc.) but really even the new cheese seems difficult to beat:

1) Chaos heldrake and noise marine spam beats us at our own game of cover save denying and decent shooting. Pathfinders will not survive to do their job vs. this build. They hold objective more easily as well. While we have a decent chance at bringing down the heldrakes the rest of the CSM army can easily take out our AA units with their troops before the drakes arrive.

2) Daemon dog bomb I predict will be a competitive thing. Stopping that many multi wound fast assaulters who will be all over you no later than turn 2 and possbily the bottom of turn 1. The WAAC kids will be taking 20-60 of these which still leave plenty of room for scoring units and nasty MCs.

3) DA Deathwing is still very durable against our shooting and they have the shooting and assault to quickly mop up. Intercepting riptides will help, but botch that overcharge roll or scatter too far and you're done.

What cheese do we have? 3 riptides? 9 Missilesides? 120 Sniper kroot? Farsight bomb? Not sure if any of those will cut it.

I think the issue here is the mindset players have, (often coming from MEQ army mind set).

The Tau are more akin to a good infantry IG list, multiple gun lines, speedbump units and weight of fire. It is missing the "Deathstar" unit of MEQ armies, but then again it is not a MEQ army.

The are the sum of their parts and require a bit more movement and foresight then other armies.

*that said I did see a game where someone did use the SM-cap on a bike + friends as a silly effective addition to a wall of firewarriors.

 hazal wrote:
I think the issue here is the mindset players have, (often coming from MEQ army mind set).

The Tau are more akin to a good infantry IG list, multiple gun lines, speedbump units and weight of fire. It is missing the "Deathstar" unit of MEQ armies, but then again it is not a MEQ army.

The are the sum of their parts and require a bit more movement and foresight then other armies.

*that said I did see a game where someone did use the SM-cap on a bike + friends as a silly effective addition to a wall of firewarriors.

I dont know about that. I have been playing tau since 3rd edition, and have only played marines for 4 games. I am pretty sure I am not coming from a MEQ mindset when I notice the Tau problems.

On a side note though: I am being resistant to taking allies for I like playing my Tau army. Is GW really going to do this to all 6th ed codexes and 'force' players to take allies to be competitive?

jazzpaintball wrote:
Is GW really going to do this to all 6th ed codexes and 'force' players to take allies to be competitive?

Yep, how else will they sell more armies to people. soon enough everyone in the world will have 4-5 plus armies as they keep expanding through the allies matrix.

Joking aside, What kind of army "Should" the tau be Fluff wise? and is it reflected in the crunch?

 agnosto wrote:

And you've relegated your best shooter to an absolute support role while spending a great deal of points on an admittedly mobile unit that a) doesn't kill anything and b)screams "shoot me with your vindicator!" You're correct that it is an option but not an attractive one. Again, I'm left with a feeling of the codex being incomplete; you're still completely reliant on something that is not actively hurting your opponent while costing a substantial amount of points. The unit you mentioned is only going to light up one unit while your opponent has multiple others that are careening across the field to get at the gunline you've been forced to create to actually bring enough volume of fire to do any credible damage to units you've actually been able to hit with markerlights.

Give him a shield drone to prevent the Vindicator issues. :p

If you're running a commander with Marker Drones (although admittedly I wouldn't do it either), run him cheap and give him the least killy weapon options. Your kills are coming from elsewhere. Anyway, there's no "forced to make a gunline" about it, especially not with Darkstrider in the mix and the upgraded Rapid Fire rules.

 agnosto wrote:

If you don't like that, you probably hate how every marine book has nearly the same options. Then again maybe you don't. It wouldn't have broken the game for two armies to have squadrons and would not be, as you so bombastically put it, "every" army. Alternatively, a rule adding another HS slot would have been army specific enough and allow for more high quality shooting that other armies are able to bring.

Why do the Tau need squadroned tanks? It was stupid in the Guard book, and it's stupid here.

 agnosto wrote:

Please re-read my statement, I was discussing the new options, not existing ones.

Discussing new options without relating them to existing ones is completely pointless. It's a way of skewing statistics to support an unpopular argument.

 agnosto wrote:

The drones are not fliers; once they detach, they're easy meat. Bombs are silly in my opinion because you have to line up your bombing runs which probably means you're dropping one, maybe two bombs and then you're off the table. Your opponent is not going to conveniently line up his/her forces to maximize the damage you may be able to do. I fail to see what targets a bomber may engage that infantry may not; it's a S5 AP5 large blast on a model that costs more than a fire warrior unit that could do the same damage. If you see some worth in it, we'll have to differ in our opinions.

It's just as well that the Sunshark can only drop one bomb a turn, then, really, isn't it? The drones are where it's at for the Sunshark, to be honest. It is a mobile Interceptor Drone deployment device.

 agnosto wrote:

Of course I exaggerated; only Imperial armies are allowed to have 3 for one HQs. Maybe Necrons do to, I'm not sure on that one. If not that then they could have made the Fireblade a unit upgrade, anything other than an HQ slot that you only get to choose two from.

Necrons don't, no. They have a single special character who makes a second special character extranumerary. The Fireblade is pretty awesome though - he's basically a Tau chaplain-equivalent, only better at what he does because he's not wasting buff potential on close combat support. The only things that come as multiple separate models in one slot that I know of are Sanguinary Priests and Lone Wolves. There is a lot of choice in the Tau HQ slot now - personally, I'm liking Darkstrider, the Fireblade and Shadowsun... but then, Ethereals are now pretty awesome too with what basically amounts to FRFSRF auras.

 agnosto wrote:

The only adaptability is in suits which you are limited in. The troop section is decidedly lacking in any diversity nor was any thought made to make them flavorful or even fun. You are now forced to play gunline which means you're immobile to benefit from special rules or you're the same old mech army which means your troops are sitting in a tank, not killing anything. The Kroot revamp was an interesting turn but you're still limited in what role they play in battle.

How on earth are you forced to play gunline? You're now putting out just as much firepower on the move as you are when stationary. The advantage of not putting heavy weapons in line squads.

 agnosto wrote:

I think the Necron Ghost Ark will do more damage than a devilfish; the massive amount of fire that durable transport can bring to bear is astonishing. SMS is cute but again, it's a S5 AP5 weapon in an army where the personal sidearm of the lowliest grunt is just as powerful. It's a 90 point tank with SMS that can fire 8 shots but can only shoot 4 at full BS if it moves more than 6" and 4 of those only have a range that is effective and you have to pay 10pts to get them.

The Ghost Ark has the same firepower as a squad of Necron Warriors, who basically have Bolters unless they're shooting at vehicles. The Devilfish Burst Cannons have the same firepower as a MSU Firewarrior squad, with MUCH better firing arcs than the Ghost Ark, and the Devilfish is cheaper than the Ghost Ark.

 agnosto wrote:

They are if you want to win without using Farsight.

I've never used Farsight. I've won with old Tau. Not for a long time, admittedly. I don't plan on using Farsight now, though, either.

 agnosto wrote:

I'd much rather have an effective tank; I don't care about the game being homogenized. Think about it, the time to be self-righteous over that was long ago when we had fewer marine books.

So go play Space Marines.

 agnosto wrote:
Why not load up your marine army with scouts? Oh yeah, they don't kill anything.

On the contrary. I've seen scout armies that are battlefield effective.

 agnosto wrote:

A highly mobile force is one that can get into the thick of battle and back out again while performing surgical strikes, not sitting behind an ADL while watching the same tactics we had last edition (JSJ). Yes the suits move around but that's about it. If you want to fire more than one gun from your vehicle, you best park it in cover the whole game. You want your weak troops to actually bring enough weight of fire to kill something? You best not move from behind you ADL and you best hope your mandatory pathfinders hit with markerlights.

JSJ is the epitome of what you're trying to describe. Most of your tanks only have one gun worth firing, and that can move 6" between shots, or even 12" and still shoot at a reduced accuracy (or even at normal accuracy with markerlights). Besides, the majority of a Tau army is going to be in suits. Your 'weak troops' can move and shoot at full effectiveness, and still have S5 R30 guns. A single Markerlight makes them hit on a 3+. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about. I play the mobile infantry game perfectly well with Sisters, and our infantry are more expensive than yours with less RNG and STR.

 agnosto wrote:

Very classy; if you don't agree with something in my post, fine but resorting to childish "emoticons" only proves you're not trying to have a serious conversation but merely arguing. Yes, I don't understand why someone would take devilfish; they're not any more durable than any other army's transports and less so than many. No assault or open-top vehicles mean you're constantly forcing troops to climb in and out of the vehicle, wasting time instead of being able to jump in, blast something apart and get out before your opponent can react. I know I said assault option but keep in mind there are more uses to an assault vehicle than just running up and hitting something with pointy sticks. We get one transport option vs. the multitude that other armies have; proof again that the designers want this army sitting somewhere. Just imagine a mobile AV13 or 14 platform that would allow an entire unit to shoot out of it; basically creating a mobile weapons platform. That would fit the flavor of the Tau and be something different.

You're more than welcome to disagree with my opinions, the world won't end for either of us; however, if you do respond, try to be a bit more civil.

Cheers.

The Devilfish is FA12, isn't it? That's more solid than Rhinos and Repressors. Assault Ramps on Devilfish make me snigger at the very idea. There really is NO use for assault vehicles other than running up to the enemy and smacking them with pointy sticks. What the Devilfish is missing is Fire Points. The problem is that the Devilfish is set up as a dropship, but billed as an APC, and what they REALLY need is an IFV. Something more like a Skimming Chimera than a Wave Serpent.

Only having one transport is not proof that the designers want you sitting in one spot in any way, shape or form. Dark Eldar only have one transport for the most part, and they're the most mobile army out there (Venoms are special transports for specialist squads, standard infantry can't take them I believe). Necrons only have one transport, the Night Scythe is just a mis-slotted FA choice.

I love this codex. Awesome rate of fire units (missile broadsides with SMS), lots of ignore cover and IMO you don't need to rely that heavily on Markers. BS3 is not that bad. I don't understand why everyone thinks it is, but it really isn't. Especially on units such as Broadsides which come twin-linked.

The Marker + Commander squad is awesome. I run one with 7 Marker Drones and 3 Gun and have been incredibly happy with it. In a pinch it can hurt infantry and also stack a bunch of Markers on a squad for me to torrent down.

I like the Boost to Kroot, I think the Riptide is good, the mech options are nice as the Sky Ray, Hammerhead and Piranha all have uses.

To echo what Kingsley said, when I look at this codex, I have a hard time choosing what I want each slot to look like because in most of the slots I see very viable options. To me that is the mark of a good codex and IMO Tau are the best overall codex released in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh and Allies! Use them to fill soft spots. If you want hardier troops for midfield, take SM variants, Orks or Guardsmen in blobs.

 agnosto wrote:

The overall mechanic has changed even though the fluff hasn't which is probably the biggest irk I have. Why advertise them as highly mobile and then write rules that penalize them for moving? Why remove the fire as a fast skimmer option from the vehicles? Hardly anything about this army appears to be highly mobile. A highly mobile force is one that can get into the thick of battle and back out again while performing surgical strikes, not sitting behind an ADL while watching the same tactics we had last edition (JSJ). Yes the suits move around but that's about it. If you want to fire more than one gun from your vehicle, you best park it in cover the whole game. You want your weak troops to actually bring enough weight of fire to kill something? You best not move from behind you ADL and you best hope your mandatory pathfinders hit with markerlights.

Sounds like you should just collect eldar. Tau have always been a gun-line army. Every previous edition of tau has played like this. Eldar have the survivable and maneuverable transports. Tau just aren't suited toward mobility or close combat just like grey knights wouldn't make a good hoard army. However, if you are bent on a maneuverable tau army, use stealth suits and pathfinders to deploy farther up and crisis suits to deep strike. You then use the devilfish to move the fire warriors up and plant them on an objective. if you have a hammerhead and broadsides, your opponent will be too busy shooting at those to target your fire warriors.

Sounds like you should just collect eldar. Tau have always been a gun-line army. Every previous edition of tau has played like this. Eldar have the survivable and maneuverable transports. Tau just aren't suited toward mobility or close combat just like grey knights wouldn't make a good hoard army. However, if you are bent on a maneuverable tau army, use stealth suits and pathfinders to deploy farther up and crisis suits to deep strike. You then use the devilfish to move the fire warriors up and plant them on an objective. if you have a hammerhead and broadsides, your opponent will be too busy shooting at those to target your fire warriors.

The only thing I would agree with in that quote is that Tau don't do CC real well. In my area they have NEVER been played as a gunline. I know that in many other places Tau ARE played that way, but even when they first came out, my local meta always ran them as a highly mobile "shoot 'n' scoot" type of army. The ability of Tau tanks to move and shoot effectively in addition to the suit rules for jet-packs always allowed Tau to manuever very well. I always looked at it like the gunline was the other way you could play them, but it was less effective (and less fun IMO) in a lot of cases.

The issue with gunline Tau (in the editions prior to 6th) is that all it took was one or two well placed DSing assault units to get into that gunline and it was all over but the screaming. 6th edition and this codex have changed that though (imo). The fact that you can no longer assault from a deep strike means that if someone deep strikes you now, they will instantly have a million str 5 guns right in their face and will have to weather an entire turn of shooting AND a brutal (when you take into account "supporting fire") overwatch. Add to that the pricing on the Devilfish and the loss of the ability of Tau tanks to move and shoot as well and I think that many people who were playing them as a shoot and scoot army might feel like they are getting funneled into playing them as a gunline only kind of army. I think the book is typical of the new books and no better or worse over-all, but I'm on the fence about the play style change.

Oh for crying out loud, the main complaints I see here is "tau got no cheese" and "its a gunline army"

For the first thing-I got nothing to say, no cheese is a GOOD thing, cheese dumbs down your game and removes the ingame tactics in favor of listbuilding optimization.

For the second, you people have obviously never been in a dedicated Tau forum that actually discusses tactics and strategies, or seem many tau actually play. (at least not creative ones)
Sure you CAN gunline, and some units relate to it, but by no means you have to.
Not only "shoot and scoot" tau forces are viable, but also agrro tau (get close and rapid-fire them to dust), and everything in between.

The new codex is flexible, powerful, and balanced. not a single unit is outright "bad", there are multiple different army types that one can build, and there are infinite possibilities of wargear of weapon choices for units (crisis rule there)

The new tau codex is near perfection, they only 2 complaints I have is the fact the jets are mish-mashy and not sure of their role, and that the broadside rules just do not fit the new model.

I have never seen an effective gun line tau, all the good ones are very mobile.

As for the devilfish , that tank is great imo. For 105 you get a 12/11/10 skimmer with a 4+ cover save, a Hvy-4 twin link, 30' range, no cover save gun and a Assualt 4 Str-5 gun.

As for "having to have marker lights". Not true at all, My friend has a great Tau army and takes advantage of all the twin linking they can do. He hardly need marker lights. Guard are BS 3 and do just fine. Besides the hammer heads and skyrays are BS-4.

As far as pathfinders as troops. Nope, they are scouts, spotters and field testers. I can't imagine a whole army of them.

Not every codex has to have a ton of troops choices or Take X to Make X troops.

If you want to go off fluff, they have a very strict combat doctrine in their military structure. Also if you read " Kill Team " the last chancer's novel, it goes into a lot of the tau background and why things are in sets of 3's if I recall. Been years since I read the book.

That's my 2 teef

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Give him a shield drone to prevent the Vindicator issues. :p

First, thanks for taking the time to comment. Maybe you're thinking Vindicare (sp?) the assassing vs. Vindicator, the tank that drops S10 large blasts; shield drones only protect the drone. Any blast weapons or even regular shooting that kill drones reduce the entire point of taking this unit anyway.

Not sure about your gunline statement since if you're standing around shooting markerlights (as drones or vehicles are the only ones who can move and shoot them) then you're a gunline. ; especially if you want to bring any weight of fire to bear with the fireblade/ethereal combo.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Why do the Tau need squadroned tanks? It was stupid in the Guard book, and it's stupid here..

Stupid or not doesn't prevent it from existing. How else would you represent a force that is supposed to be highly mobile and mechanized? Everything's already covered by every other book in one way or another so there's going to be overlap somewhere.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Discussing new options without relating them to existing ones is completely pointless. It's a way of skewing statistics to support an unpopular argument.

I don't get your statement. My original comment was discussing how the new blast options, while great, involve some form of "gets hot" for the most part. New options vs. old options. Yes, the newer options will probably be much more effective on the battlefield but it's like the writer is making up for plasma rilfes lacking "gets hot" by adding it to every ion weapon's overcharge profile.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

It's just as well that the Sunshark can only drop one bomb a turn, then, really, isn't it? The drones are where it's at for the Sunshark, to be honest. It is a mobile Interceptor Drone deployment device..

Yes, the drones are great but, once detached, are fair game to every gun on the field because they aren't fliers; they're jet-pack infantry with a 4+ save. That's a lot of points for two ion rifles that you can get in a pathfinder unit and you can get interceptor elsewhere in the army.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Necrons don't, no. They have a single special character who makes a second special character extranumerary. The Fireblade is pretty awesome though - he's basically a Tau chaplain-equivalent, only better at what he does because he's not wasting buff potential on close combat support. The only things that come as multiple separate models in one slot that I know of are Sanguinary Priests and Lone Wolves. There is a lot of choice in the Tau HQ slot now - personally, I'm liking Darkstrider, the Fireblade and Shadowsun... but then, Ethereals are now pretty awesome too with what basically amounts to FRFSRF auras..

Thanks for clearing that up for me; maybe I was thinking about the Necron "courts", those units can get pretty big. I agree that the new HQs are great which is why I want to take more of them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

How on earth are you forced to play gunline? You're now putting out just as much firepower on the move as you are when stationary. The advantage of not putting heavy weapons in line squads..

How else are you going to get volume of fire? Troops in devilfish can't shoot and they will die quickly outside of them if they aren't in some sort of cover.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Ghost Ark has the same firepower as a squad of Necron Warriors, who basically have Bolters unless they're shooting at vehicles. The Devilfish Burst Cannons have the same firepower as a MSU Firewarrior squad, with MUCH better firing arcs than the Ghost Ark, and the Devilfish is cheaper than the Ghost Ark.

Maybe my friend was playing it wrong. I swear he pulled up and shot out the guns on the boat before firing with the warriors inside. 6 firewarriors fire 2 more shots at longer range than the BC and do it for less points. If you move, you only get to shoot one gun so you can't fire the SMS and the BC. I'm showing my ignorance here in that I don't know the cost of the ghost ark but love the 13 front and side armor. I've got transport envy; I want something opentop; other than the pirahna.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

JSJ is the epitome of what you're trying to describe. Most of your tanks only have one gun worth firing, and that can move 6" between shots, or even 12" and still shoot at a reduced accuracy (or even at normal accuracy with markerlights). Besides, the majority of a Tau army is going to be in suits. Your 'weak troops' can move and shoot at full effectiveness, and still have S5 R30 guns. A single Markerlight makes them hit on a 3+. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about. I play the mobile infantry game perfectly well with Sisters, and our infantry are more expensive than yours with less RNG and STR.

JSJ is great and is the definition of Tau strategy but really only available to a maximum of 9 models out of an entire force (barring Farsight and drones). Markerlights don't affect BS for the purposes of snapfire (though there is some debate on this issue apparently). Tau tanks can only move 6" and fire one gun. Sisters may not be a good comparison with a 3+ save and special weapon availability; I'm also not sure how useful the prayers are compared to the new ethereal auras but I think you can give your troops an invulnerable each turn or something....sorry, I've never faced sisters.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

The Devilfish is FA12, isn't it? That's more solid than Rhinos and Repressors. Assault Ramps on Devilfish make me snigger at the very idea. There really is NO use for assault vehicles other than running up to the enemy and smacking them with pointy sticks. What the Devilfish is missing is Fire Points. The problem is that the Devilfish is set up as a dropship, but billed as an APC, and what they REALLY need is an IFV. Something more like a Skimming Chimera than a Wave Serpent.

Assault ramps were just me throwing out ideas. You're right in that it's more like a movable drop pod than an APC; the army needs something units can shoot out of.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Only having one transport is not proof that the designers want you sitting in one spot in any way, shape or form. Dark Eldar only have one transport for the most part, and they're the most mobile army out there (Venoms are special transports for specialist squads, standard infantry can't take them I believe). Necrons only have one transport, the Night Scythe is just a mis-slotted FA choice.

Is the Night Scythe the thing that lets you put a unit anywhere on the board? Yeah, that's cool. A transport for pathfinders would have been neat that would have allowed them to move around and still use markerlights...

Thanks for your thoughts. I know I'm coming off as very negative but the things that I presented are the ONLY problems I have with the book; there's a great deal to like as well; I like the ion weapons and think the new broadsides make sense (and the models are great...except the missileside looks goofy to me). Like I said, it's a mixed bag to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

Sounds like you should just collect eldar. Tau have always been a gun-line army. Every previous edition of tau has played like this. Eldar have the survivable and maneuverable transports. Tau just aren't suited toward mobility or close combat just like grey knights wouldn't make a good hoard army. However, if you are bent on a maneuverable tau army, use stealth suits and pathfinders to deploy farther up and crisis suits to deep strike. You then use the devilfish to move the fire warriors up and plant them on an objective. if you have a hammerhead and broadsides, your opponent will be too busy shooting at those to target your fire warriors.

We're going to have differeing opinions here because I played Tau in the era of the pop-up tank and fish of fury tactics. Original Tau was anything but gunline; now I need to figure out what to do with all the extra devilfish I have because there's not point in taking them any more.

For the first thing-I got nothing to say, no cheese is a GOOD thing, cheese dumbs down your game and removes the ingame tactics in favor of listbuilding optimization.

Definitely. I like the way the 6th ed. books have been heading in terms of this. They seem to be a little bland and feel a little rushed, but I feel like they are (so far) balancing out well.

Not only "shoot and scoot" tau forces are viable, but also agrro tau (get close and rapid-fire them to dust), and everything in between.

Always filed Agro Tau under shoot and scoot. Because it's not like you're going to leave that FW squad flapping in the breeze after you rapid fire that target. Right? You're probably going to move them again ... I get what you're saying there though, but you have to at least admit that it does feel like the new codex is trying to at least guide the player into a less mobile style.

The new codex is flexible, powerful, and balanced. not a single unit is outright "bad"

Vespids. I would also argue that the DF, at it's current cost is probably not so great.

they only 2 complaints I have is the fact the jets are mish-mashy and not sure of their role, and that the broadside rules just do not fit the new model.

I agree on the flyers. They do kind of feel like they were shoe-horned in there without a clear role. I'm curious about your broadside comment though. I like that the Str got lowered on their gun as it just makes more sense to me. Is that what you mean, or is there something else you dislike as far as the rules not matching the model?

EDIT: Of course I'm the guy who has been getting laughed at for years for taking Hammerheads over Broadsides. Oh yeah, who's laughing now? That's right, it's the guy with the magnetized hammerhead/skyrays!

Adapt or die. This codex is amazing and you are all living in 4th ed codex land.

Jazzpaintball...you disappoint me! YOU of all people DOUBTING the supremacy of the Greater Good?

How many games have you played with it so far...and what is youir record thus far?

So why all the moaning and complaining. Literally nothing got worse. Broadsides OVERALL usefulness against vehicles INCREASED. Their STR 8 is a smoke screen because they STILL will be killing MORE than their share of targets. STR 10 is availble on a Hammrhead if you MUST have it. But must you? LandRaiders can fall now to Onager Gauntlets, well priced Haywire Grenades, 18" meltas and for the love of all that is holy, have we forgotten the enormously awesome Riptide that will shred the LandRaider for you if it tries its whole "jump out and ram some Tau" act? No one can bloodwash the pavement with the speed Tau can.

Get off the ledge man. Step AWAY from the LEDGE!

Are you not my student? Did I not teach you the ways of the force? Have you not monkey stomped opponent after opponent using trickery and timing? YES YOU HAVE!

So stop ith the moping or I will start calling you Mopey McMoperson. Go win some tournies or something so we can stop listening to you cry to the heavens

 agnosto wrote:


First, thanks for taking the time to comment. Maybe you're thinking Vindicare (sp?) the assassing vs. Vindicator, the tank that drops S10 large blasts; shield drones only protect the drone. Any blast weapons or even regular shooting that kill drones reduce the entire point of taking this unit anyway.

Not sure about your gunline statement since if you're standing around shooting markerlights (as drones or vehicles are the only ones who can move and shoot them) then you're a gunline. ; especially if you want to bring any weight of fire to bear with the fireblade/ethereal combo.

A gunline requires multiple squads standing in a line firing and not moving. Pathfinders use Scout to get into advantageous positions. Markerlights are relatively long ranged. You do not need to be standing next to a Pathfinder unit to use the markerlights they lay down. Your Pathfinders could be in a tower halfway up the left flank and still put down markers for the mobile Fire Warrior squads.

As for Vindicators, give me a little credit. The Vindicator still has to kill the Shield Drone before it can start taking models off the rest of the unit because of the current wound allocation rules. So if the shield drone tanks the average 6 of the 12 hits the squad takes, that's 7 Fire Warriors who won't be dying (the extra hit goes on the other drone, of course).

 agnosto wrote:

Stupid or not doesn't prevent it from existing. How else would you represent a force that is supposed to be highly mobile and mechanized? Everything's already covered by every other book in one way or another so there's going to be overlap somewhere.

How on earth does squadroned tanks improve your mobility? All it does is let you put more tanks in the army.

 agnosto wrote:

I don't get your statement. My original comment was discussing how the new blast options, while great, involve some form of "gets hot" for the most part. New options vs. old options. Yes, the newer options will probably be much more effective on the battlefield but it's like the writer is making up for plasma rilfes lacking "gets hot" by adding it to every ion weapon's overcharge profile.

It makes a heck of a lot more sense than saying "This ion weapon overheats if you overcharge it, but this one doesn't". Look at it another way - if they didn't run the risk of overheating, the overcharged fire mode would be standard firing mode, and the current standard firing mode wouldn't be used. Overcharging stuff means putting more power into it than it's safely capable of handling, so of course it's risky!

 agnosto wrote:

Yes, the drones are great but, once detached, are fair game to every gun on the field because they aren't fliers; they're jet-pack infantry with a 4+ save. That's a lot of points for two ion rifles that you can get in a pathfinder unit and you can get interceptor elsewhere in the army.

True. But I'm afraid I'm a flyer nut, so I'll defend them to the day I die no matter how sub-optimal they are. ^^;

 agnosto wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up for me; maybe I was thinking about the Necron "courts", those units can get pretty big. I agree that the new HQs are great which is why I want to take more of them.

Royal Court is up to 5 lords and 5 crypteks per Overlord, each Court can only put one model in another squad, and each special Cryptek wargear may only be taken once per court. In addition, the Courtiers are 1-wound models with either T5/3+ or T4/4+.

 agnosto wrote:

How else are you going to get volume of fire? Troops in devilfish can't shoot and they will die quickly outside of them if they aren't in some sort of cover.

I do fine with walking. *shrug* 4+ saves aren't terrible as long as you stay away from Sisters - nobody else brings much in the way of AP4. It's usually either AP5 or AP2.

 agnosto wrote:

Maybe my friend was playing it wrong. I swear he pulled up and shot out the guns on the boat before firing with the warriors inside. 6 firewarriors fire 2 more shots at longer range than the BC and do it for less points. If you move, you only get to shoot one gun so you can't fire the SMS and the BC. I'm showing my ignorance here in that I don't know the cost of the ghost ark but love the 13 front and side armor. I've got transport envy; I want something opentop; other than the pirahna.

Yes, the Ghost Ark is open-topped. It's also somewhere in the realm of 160 points. I will admit that the Devilfish I know has a single Burst Cannon and a pair of gun drones. ^^; So I can't really comment on the effectiveness of these new-fangled burst cannon and SMS Devilfish.

 agnosto wrote:

JSJ is great and is the definition of Tau strategy but really only available to a maximum of 9 models out of an entire force (barring Farsight and drones). Markerlights don't affect BS for the purposes of snapfire (though there is some debate on this issue apparently). Tau tanks can only move 6" and fire one gun. Sisters may not be a good comparison with a 3+ save and special weapon availability; I'm also not sure how useful the prayers are compared to the new ethereal auras but I think you can give your troops an invulnerable each turn or something....sorry, I've never faced sisters.

JSJ - don't Drones get it as well? So that increases the amount you can put in. I don't know if they dropped the ability for Broadsides to take jetpacks or not. Acts of Faith vary - they've changed since the last time you heard anything about them. But in any case, Tau guns are better than Sisters guns - Tau get Pulse Rifles. Sisters get bolters, and up to two flamers, meltaguns or storm bolters or one of those and then a heavy version in each squad. So the Tau out-range the Sisters and out-strength them. If I can play walking Sisters as a mobile ranged infantry force, you can do it with Tau.

 agnosto wrote:

Assault ramps were just me throwing out ideas. You're right in that it's more like a movable drop pod than an APC; the army needs something units can shoot out of.

I agree. Something like the Chimera or Repressor, with 6 fire points.

 agnosto wrote:

Is the Night Scythe the thing that lets you put a unit anywhere on the board? Yeah, that's cool. A transport for pathfinders would have been neat that would have allowed them to move around and still use markerlights...

The Night Scythe is the croissant flier with the two twin-linked autocannons. You're thinking of the Veil of Darkness, which is an piece of Cryptek wargear that lets the unit carrying it leave the board then immediately deepstrike every turn. By the way, you can move and shoot pathfinders with Markerlights, but they only hit on a 6.

 agnosto wrote:

Thanks for your thoughts. I know I'm coming off as very negative but the things that I presented are the ONLY problems I have with the book; there's a great deal to like as well; I like the ion weapons and think the new broadsides make sense (and the models are great...except the missileside looks goofy to me). Like I said, it's a mixed bag to me.

Negative people are only annoying when they refuse to change their minds in the face of my awesome negotiating skills. :p

 agnosto wrote:

We're going to have differeing opinions here because I played Tau in the era of the pop-up tank and fish of fury tactics. Original Tau was anything but gunline; now I need to figure out what to do with all the extra devilfish I have because there's not point in taking them any more.

Oh, get over it. The rest of the game had to abandon their transports with 6th. :p At least, that's the common perception anyway. Fish of Fury was always a bit exploitative, but in a fluffy goodness kind of way. Incidentally, why doesn't Fish of Fury work any more?

 agnosto wrote:

Very classy; if you don't agree with something in my post, fine but resorting to childish "emoticons" only proves you're not trying to have a serious conversation but merely arguing. Yes, I don't understand why someone would take devilfish; they're not any more durable than any other army's transports and less so than many. No assault or open-top vehicles mean you're constantly forcing troops to climb in and out of the vehicle, wasting time instead of being able to jump in, blast something apart and get out before your opponent can react. I know I said assault option but keep in mind there are more uses to an assault vehicle than just running up and hitting something with pointy sticks. We get one transport option vs. the multitude that other armies have; proof again that the designers want this army sitting somewhere. Just imagine a mobile AV13 or 14 platform that would allow an entire unit to shoot out of it; basically creating a mobile weapons platform. That would fit the flavor of the Tau and be something different.

You're more than welcome to disagree with my opinions, the world won't end for either of us; however, if you do respond, try to be a bit more civil.

Cheers.

Seriously man, Kingsley's just using an emoticon to try to keep the conversation friendly. So don't get all uptight about it. Sorry if you think you're too "mature" for emoticons but don't get mad at the people who do. Anyway, the devilfish is pretty durable compared to other armie's transports. Rhinos, trukks, raiders, and immolators are all weaker, and it's on par with chimeras. This means that the only transports that are more durable are the ghost ark and wave serpent.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A gunline requires multiple squads standing in a line firing and not moving. Pathfinders use Scout to get into advantageous positions. Markerlights are relatively long ranged. You do not need to be standing next to a Pathfinder unit to use the markerlights they lay down. Your Pathfinders could be in a tower halfway up the left flank and still put down markers for the mobile Fire Warrior squads.

Which is what you get when you want to maximize weight of fire by adding a fireblade and the pathfinders have to sit still to use their markerlights so you go back to a non-mobile force unless you roll more 6s than I do (which you probably do...man, I need new dice).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
As for Vindicators, give me a little credit. The Vindicator still has to kill the Shield Drone before it can start taking models off the rest of the unit because of the current wound allocation rules. So if the shield drone tanks the average 6 of the 12 hits the squad takes, that's 7 Fire Warriors who won't be dying (the extra hit goes on the other drone, of course).

I'll admit that I may play it wrong, I tend to be very busy and only able to get a friendly game in with an old college buddy once a month or less, but I always assumed that anything under a large blast was hit and that wound allocation only comes into play with direct shooting.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How on earth does squadroned tanks improve your mobility? All it does is let you put more tanks in the army.

More is better? Seriously, the more vehicles you have and the less static units you have, the more mobile your force is....especially if they're fast skimmers...but I've already beat that horse to death a few times over.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It makes a heck of a lot more sense than saying "This ion weapon overheats if you overcharge it, but this one doesn't". Look at it another way - if they didn't run the risk of overheating, the overcharged fire mode would be standard firing mode, and the current standard firing mode wouldn't be used. Overcharging stuff means putting more power into it than it's safely capable of handling, so of course it's risky!

I think you and Kingsley misunderstood me; I wasn't really complaining about the ion overcharge rules just making an observation that we lacked blast weapons before and when we did get them, they all had "gets hot" instead of just giving us weapons that were blast to begin with...though I guess the pulse bomb would fit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I do fine with walking. *shrug* 4+ saves aren't terrible as long as you stay away from Sisters - nobody else brings much in the way of AP4. It's usually either AP5 or AP2.

But that's the thing, the new rules encourage you to not walk but to stand still so you can get extra shots out of the maximum squad size of 12 firewarriors. Fireblades require you to sit still to use their volley fire rule but now that I go back and look, the ethereal aura allows you to fire an extra shot within 1/2 range regardless of moving or not so I guess it's not all bad but it'd be tough to give up that extra victory point.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, the Ghost Ark is open-topped. It's also somewhere in the realm of 160 points. I will admit that the Devilfish I know has a single Burst Cannon and a pair of gun drones. ^^; So I can't really comment on the effectiveness of these new-fangled burst cannon and SMS Devilfish.

Ignoring los with SMS is great and all but I'd still love to be able to shoot a plasma gun out the hatch like most other armies. Meh. I'll get over it; like I said it's one of my few gripes and is more about lack of options than anything else but we've talked about that already.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
JSJ - don't Drones get it as well? So that increases the amount you can put in. I don't know if they dropped the ability for Broadsides to take jetpacks or not. Acts of Faith vary - they've changed since the last time you heard anything about them. But in any case, Tau guns are better than Sisters guns - Tau get Pulse Rifles. Sisters get bolters, and up to two flamers, meltaguns or storm bolters or one of those and then a heavy version in each squad. So the Tau out-range the Sisters and out-strength them. If I can play walking Sisters as a mobile ranged infantry force, you can do it with Tau.

It does give me a reason to use all those drones I have laying about (lazy so and so's) but it also eats up a fast attack slot... give and take I suppose. Broadsides never could jump, they were always ground-pounders. People go on and on about tau guns but conveniently forget that the guy shooting the gun will keel over and die from a stiff breeze or a mean look. The new supporting fire rules help but then you're stuck castling up which is the problem we had in the last edition...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Oh, get over it. The rest of the game had to abandon their transports with 6th. :p At least, that's the common perception anyway. Fish of Fury was always a bit exploitative, but in a fluffy goodness kind of way. Incidentally, why doesn't Fish of Fury work any more?

True line of sight means that probably more than half your squad can't shoot because the devilfish is blocking los from their guns and if you use all kneeling troops....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:


Seriously man, Kingsley's just using an emoticon to try to keep the conversation friendly. So don't get all uptight about it. Sorry if you think you're too "mature" for emoticons but don't get mad at the people who do. Anyway, the devilfish is pretty durable compared to other armie's transports. Rhinos, trukks, raiders, and immolators are all weaker, and it's on par with chimeras. This means that the only transports that are more durable are the ghost ark and wave serpent.

So just because an emoticon is available, it's not rude to use it? Tell me, when you are interacting with colleagues at work do you face palm yourself in front of them every time you disagree with a statement?

There are many other transports, mostly more expensive than a devilfish that are more durable, some fly (Valkyrie, storm raven) some do not (chimera, land raider). You have a point in that the cost of the vehicle is not as high as some other armies but then most people agreed in the past edition that devilfish were expensive points-wise and the points certainly didn't go down; meanwhile it lost the ability to fire as a fast vehicle and the disruption pod suffered a nerf. These negatives were only partially mitigated by the addition of an extra shot each from the primary and secondary weapon systems of which only one may be fired at fill BS if the vehicle moves and 6" of range on the SMS. The previous devilfish could move 12" and fire 6 shots at a potential BS of 4, the new one may move 6" and fire 4 shots, TL at a BS of 3.

I would have prefered a cheaper, less durable transport that allows me to fire out of it that could have served as a mobile fire-base, more in alignment with the Tau concept of warfare.

While I do think the new Tau codex is pretty good and like it, I do sympathize with you. I typically play Necrons and CSM and when their new codexes were released, I admittingly felt a bit let down if not frustrated. For Necrons, it was because Destroyer Armada was pretty much a no go except at 2000+ point battles and the Armada had been the core of my army lists prior to codex: Newcrons (And I regularly used a C'tan as an HQ). Simply put, my wallet and I did not like having to change up my army.

For CSM, I suppose I went in with high hopes from Kelly and was let down. I admit that the codex itself is good, but it sort of felt like I had gone out to buy a new bike but instead just tuned up and upgraded parts of my old bike. And the champion of chaos rule... The challenging other characters I am fine with, but the rolling on the boon table irked me when I saw it and irks me now too often (my dice hate me). I'd gladly have paid 5-10 points to be able to shrug off rolling on that boon table for my HQs.

 King Pariah wrote:
While I do think the new Tau codex is pretty good and like it, I do sympathize with you. I typically play Necrons and CSM and when their new codexes were released, I admittingly felt a bit let down if not frustrated. For Necrons, it was because Destroyer Armada was pretty much a no go except at 2000+ point battles and the Armada had been the core of my army lists prior to codex: Newcrons (And I regularly used a C'tan as an HQ). Simply put, my wallet and I did not like having to change up my army.

For CSM, I suppose I went in with high hopes from Kelly and was let down. I admit that the codex itself is good, but it sort of felt like I had gone out to buy a new bike but instead just tuned up and upgraded parts of my old bike. And the champion of chaos rule... The challenging other characters I am fine with, but the rolling on the boon table irked me when I saw it and irks me now too often (my dice hate me). I'd gladly have paid 5-10 points to be able to shrug off rolling on that boon table for my HQs.

The thing that makes me glad I don't play DoC or CSM is all the random nonsense; that would drive me crazy. Overall, I like the book it's just the few things I've gone over that I dislike. Maybe it's not such a good idea to get someone different to write the rules each time they come up; new writers don't always "get" the overall feel of the army.

That and I'm still waiting for someone to please explain the burst cannon vs. SMS on hammerheads to me....anybody? please? pretty please? I mean, it's ok to make something up, any somewhat plausible explanation will do.

 agnosto wrote:

So just because an emoticon is available, it's not rude to use it? Tell me, when you are interacting with colleagues at work do you face palm yourself in front of them every time you disagree with a statement?

There are many other transports, mostly more expensive than a devilfish that are more durable, some fly (Valkyrie, storm raven) some do not (chimera, land raider). You have a point in that the cost of the vehicle is not as high as some other armies but then most people agreed in the past edition that devilfish were expensive points-wise and the points certainly didn't go down; meanwhile it lost the ability to fire as a fast vehicle and the disruption pod suffered a nerf. These negatives were only partially mitigated by the addition of an extra shot each from the primary and secondary weapon systems of which only one may be fired at fill BS if the vehicle moves and 6" of range on the SMS. The previous devilfish could move 12" and fire 6 shots at a potential BS of 4, the new one may move 6" and fire 4 shots, TL at a BS of 3.

I would have prefered a cheaper, less durable transport that allows me to fire out of it that could have served as a mobile fire-base, more in alignment with the Tau concept of warfare.

Well, that's why I play 40k haha. It's the one place where I can just relax and get away from all those humorless colleagues.
I can see where you're coming from though. It would be annoying to lose the "Fast" ability. I think it makes sense though given the appearance of the model.

agnosto wrote:

The overall mechanic has changed even though the fluff hasn't which is probably the biggest irk I have. Why advertise them as highly mobile and then write rules that penalize them for moving? Why remove the fire as a fast skimmer option from the vehicles? Hardly anything about this army appears to be highly mobile. A highly mobile force is one that can get into the thick of battle and back out again while performing surgical strikes, not sitting behind an ADL while watching the same tactics we had last edition (JSJ). Yes the suits move around but that's about it. If you want to fire more than one gun from your vehicle, you best park it in cover the whole game. You want your weak troops to actually bring enough weight of fire to kill something? You best not move from behind you ADL and you best hope your mandatory pathfinders hit with markerlights.


Sounds like you should just collect eldar. Tau have always been a gun-line army. Every previous edition of tau has played like this. Eldar have the survivable and maneuverable transports. Tau just aren't suited toward mobility or close combat just like grey knights wouldn't make a good hoard army. However, if you are bent on a maneuverable tau army, use stealth suits and pathfinders to deploy farther up and crisis suits to deep strike. You then use the devilfish to move the fire warriors up and plant them on an objective. if you have a hammerhead and broadsides, your opponent will be too busy shooting at those to target your fire warriors.

This a a common misconception regarding the Tau, or at least it was. As any Tau veteran will tell you, Tau are just as much about mobility as they are about shooting, or at least that was the case before the new codex. If you look at the old codex, you will notice there are only three units that cannot move and shoot effectively: broadsides, pathfinders and sniper drones. This restriction can be lifted from broadsides with the A.S.S. and pathfinders till have pulse carbines as a backup. Thus there is only one unit in the whole codex that cannot fire effectively on the move. Furthermore, nearly half the units in the codex can move at least 12" without significant loss of firepower, and these choices were spread across all the force org slots in the codex, thus is was possible to fill all the force org slots while building an army in which ever model could move 12" save the troops riding in the devilfish. These armies were typically referred to as mechanized Tau. Even hybrid Tau could stay fairly mobile, by using A.S.S. broadsides and making optimal use of the rapid fire weapons on foot mobile troops.

As for the devilfish , that tank is great imo. For 105 you get a 12/11/10 skimmer with a 4+ cover save, a Hvy-4 twin link, 30' range, no cover save gun and a Assualt 4 Str-5 gun.

For 20 points more I could get an hammerhead with an ion cannon and an sms system. The thing is way too bloody expensive. Its resilient, but you are going to be snapfiring one of your weapons if you move at all, and it still lacks fireports. You can't even disembark if it moves over 6", which is no faster than the firewarrios can move on foot. Its basically a well-protected hiding hole for your firewarriors, and you aren't going to win any games by playing timid with your troops. The thing is so expensive you can just purchase another troop choice rather the sheltering one within it. Devilfish really needed to see the price reduction the IoM APCs got.

If someone had come along and handed this to me as a new army, then I would have been happy with it. But it's not Tau as envisaged from the previous two codexes.

I understand that that is simply a personal viewpoint that some of you will find difficult to accept or understand, but personal perceptions do play an important factor in our likes/dislikes.

Can I accept it as a new army? Yes, Can I accept it as the new Tau? Sorry no.

Cheers

Andrew

PS, IMO the Fireblades should have been a unit upgrade, not a HQ choice.

This is exactly my problem with the new dex. When writing a new codex, creating a solid rulebook isn't good enough. It needs to reflect the style and behavior of the army it is updating in addition to providing solid rules.

It would be like turning Eldar into a slow, ponderous army or Orkz into an elite army. The new rules might be excellent, but they don't do the job of representing the relevant army properly.

As for the devilfish , that tank is great imo. For 105 you get a 12/11/10 skimmer with a 4+ cover save, a Hvy-4 twin link, 30' range, no cover save gun and a Assualt 4 Str-5 gun.

For 20 points more I could get an hammerhead with an ion cannon and an sms system. The thing is way too bloody expensive. Its resilient, but you are going to be snapfiring one of your weapons if you move at all, and it still lacks fireports. You can't even disembark if it moves over 6", which is no faster than the firewarrios can move on foot. Its basically a well-protected hiding hole for your firewarriors, and you aren't going to win any games by playing timid with your troops. The thing is so expensive you can just purchase another troop choice rather the sheltering one within it. Devilfish really needed to see the price reduction the IoM APCs got.

The hammerhead doesn't have a disruption pod or carry troops. Also ALL transports can only move 6 and have the guys disembark and move another 6. So no,the fire warriors are still fast in the transport than on foot. . 105 is still cheaper than they use to be with the same set up, so they did get a price decrease and so did the fire warriors.

Devilfish are enclosed sealed tanks, like falcons or wave serpents, so they wouldn't have fire point.

Tycho wrote:

The new codex is flexible, powerful, and balanced. not a single unit is outright "bad"

Vespids. I would also argue that the DF, at it's current cost is probably not so great.

Old vespids really were horrible, new ones however...
Sure, the cost 2 more points, but lets count what they gain?
+6 range on the gun (covering biggest flaw-point blank shooting)
armor improvment to 4+ (covering second biggest flaw, every bolter killed them)
Move through cover (the low chance to get hurt by terrain reduced to no chance)
Hit and Run (so even if you catch me, or I decide to take advantage of hammer and hit you, I can leave the melee, or entangle you and get away on your turn.)
Improved initiative (never hurts, also merges will with above)

Yea, they are decent nowdays. not a beacon of destruction the crisis suit is, but they bring enough unique skills to be worth considering.


The DF, its not bad, just hard to use properly.
Its not a gunboat like the chimera, its a true transport, move in, drop your load, shoot them to bit with the load, tankshock people off objectives. team it with a tough armor and skimmer rules, odds are it WILL get to its destination before taken down, at least as long there are actual tanks for the enemy AT to aim at.

Tycho wrote:

they only 2 complaints I have is the fact the jets are mish-mashy and not sure of their role, and that the broadside rules just do not fit the new model.

I agree on the flyers. They do kind of feel like they were shoe-horned in there without a clear role. I'm curious about your broadside comment though. I like that the Str got lowered on their gun as it just makes more sense to me. Is that what you mean, or is there something else you dislike as far as the rules not matching the model?

I meant more that the model/rules mismatch, rather then the rules being bad or not fair.
New broadsides are ok, but they are WAY too big to be a T4 2+ unit, and the heavy rail rifle is massive, too massive to be a S8AP1 gun.
The model itself looks like a T5, at the very least, and the gun like a S9-10, not S8. there is no way that massive gun is less powerful then infantry-held lascannon.



As for the guy who said there are at max 9 units with jet packs on the field:
So, we dont have jetpack commanders, bodyguards, drone teams. disembarked drones, stealth suits?
Yaknow, you don't HAVE to use them, but they are there.


About snap-fireing if you move at all with the fish, you got drones for that silly. they are not as good as the SMS, but do not count against the tank's guns. so its a trade off.
The fact its "not any faster then on foot"? well, you CAN steal a few inches with the fish and clever moving, and you get a double-move on the turn you disembark, furthermore, you are not slowed by terrain, and if you flat out you go MUCH faster then running.

The SMS/BC question for hammerheads, I figure that they just wanted to make it a drone/SMS choice, but figured that people might have BC gule on from the old codex, so they kept it as an option rather then throwing it away.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

The overall mechanic has changed even though the fluff hasn't which is probably the biggest irk I have. Why advertise them as highly mobile and then write rules that penalize them for moving? Why remove the fire as a fast skimmer option from the vehicles? Hardly anything about this army appears to be highly mobile. A highly mobile force is one that can get into the thick of battle and back out again while performing surgical strikes, not sitting behind an ADL while watching the same tactics we had last edition (JSJ). Yes the suits move around but that's about it. If you want to fire more than one gun from your vehicle, you best park it in cover the whole game. You want your weak troops to actually bring enough weight of fire to kill something? You best not move from behind you ADL and you best hope your mandatory pathfinders hit with markerlights.

Sounds like you should just collect eldar. Tau have always been a gun-line army. Every previous edition of tau has played like this. Eldar have the survivable and maneuverable transports. Tau just aren't suited toward mobility or close combat just like grey knights wouldn't make a good hoard army.

Sorry but that's complete rubbish. Particularly in 4th edition, Tau was usually Mech, because of skimmer rules. Tau gunlines are products of late 5th edition mindset when players had to squeeze out maximum firepower to stay competive against newer more powerful codices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hazal wrote:
I think the issue here is the mindset players have, (often coming from MEQ army mind set).

The Tau are more akin to a good infantry IG list, multiple gun lines, speedbump units and weight of fire. It is missing the "Deathstar" unit of MEQ armies, but then again it is not a MEQ army.

Started the game with Tau, because I liked how Tau tanks looked & worked on the field. Never played MEQ until pretty recently. No, I don't like the new Codex.

I meant more that the model/rules mismatch, rather then the rules being bad or not fair.
New broadsides are ok, but they are WAY too big to be a T4 2+ unit, and the heavy rail rifle is massive, too massive to be a S8AP1 gun.
The model itself looks like a T5, at the very least, and the gun like a S9-10, not S8. there is no way that massive gun is less powerful then infantry-held lascannon.

Ah. I see what you mean. That actually makes sense. I hadn't thought about it, but you're probably right. T5 might have been good on that hulking brute.