A school in Missouri has its teachers packing concealed firearms now

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**MrMoustaffa**

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/us/missouri-school-trains-teachers-to-carry-guns.html?hp&_r=0

After the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown that killed 26 people, administrators at Fairview said some parents approached them about allowing teachers to carry guns. Becky Wright-Welty, whose 13-year-old son attends the school, said she asked the Fairview School District’s board members: “What are we doing about security? I want to know.”

One of the biggest concerns of administrators and parents was that the quickest the sheriff’s department could reach Fairview, the district’s only school, would be nine minutes.

The school board, which includes a former county sheriff, worked out the details of liability coverage with Fairview’s insurance provider. Then, at an open meeting in late February, it authorized some of the school employees to undergo a training program that would certify them to carry guns on campus.

Those employees took a 40-hour course during spring break last month through a company called Shield Solutions, whose instructors included local SWAT team members. The training, which was paid for by the school, included firearms and situational drills. The employees, who have furnished their own guns, each also had to pass a background check, a drug test and a mental evaluation — all of which must be repeated annually, as well as additional firearms training and recertification.

“It’s not a ‘Well, here’s your gun; carry it,’ ” said Vic Williams, the Fairview superintendent. “It’s very closely monitored. It’s not a Clint Eastwood-type deal.”

At the first school board meeting after spring break, the board sanctioned those who had passed the training — and were then also considered Shield Solutions employees — to carry weapons at school. Most of West Plains learned the news from the front-page article in The Quill on March 21. Four days later, the district sent a letter to parents addressing concerns.

“I was really upset more about the way it happened, the back door,” said Eileen Wilson, 53, adding that she was considering removing her daughter, who is autistic, from Fairview. “I just don’t think something of this magnitude is something you just put out in a press release. ‘Oh, by the way, we got 10 people packing weapons now in school.’ ”

Interesting, I guess the guys who said "we should allow the teachers to conceal carry" finally get to put their money where their mouth is.

Only things that I don't like about the article is that they seem to go really out of their way to make it look like these people are a bunch of hicks. I'm not sure if that was intentionally meant to be a "Look at these stupid hicks" kind of thing, or if they were just trying to say "out there, this is normal." I'll let you guys decide on that.

The one thing that bugs me the most though is that according to the article this was done behind "closed doors". If this is true, then I'd be pretty upset, even though I would be all for this kind of thing. Something that big you don't just drop on peoples' heads after it's already passed, as you risk angering people who might have supported it or remained ambivalent otherwise. At least say "hey parents, we're thinking about letting the teachers conceal carry, we'll be voting on it next month."

So yeah, what do you think Dakka? We already trust these people with our children's lives 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (sometimes more). If they weren't going nuts and stabbing them in the face with pencils, I don't think the average teacher is going to go on a rampage just because he conceal carrys a pistol. Especially if they go through the kind of thing like these teachers did, with a background check, mental test, and drug testing, as well as yearly requalification, which is much more strict than what your average CCL holder goes through. What I wonder though is if this would actually intimidate most school shootings from happening, or if they'd keep happening even if every school adopted this policy. And if a student did try to shoot up a school with this policy, would the teacher be able to take that kid's life in order to protect the rest of the class? Because even if the teacher was in the right and that kid was dual wielding M60's, you know there'd be a media gakstorm the like of which we've never seen.

**juraigamer**

Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

**djones520**

It's a NY Times article, so I'm going to say it was intentional to make them look bad.

I back it the idea.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Doubtful. It would be more likely the kid would bring the gun in already.

**whembly**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/us/missouri-school-trains-teachers-to-carry-guns.html?hp&_r=0

After the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown that killed 26 people, administrators at Fairview said some parents approached them about allowing teachers to carry guns. Becky Wright-Welty, whose 13-year-old son attends the school, said she asked the Fairview School District’s board members: “What are we doing about security? I want to know.”

One of the biggest concerns of administrators and parents was that the quickest the sheriff’s department could reach Fairview, the district’s only school, would be nine minutes.

The school board, which includes a former county sheriff, worked out the details of liability coverage with Fairview’s insurance provider. Then, at an open meeting in late February, it authorized some of the school employees to undergo a training program that would certify them to carry guns on campus.

Those employees took a 40-hour course during spring break last month through a company called Shield Solutions, whose instructors included local SWAT team members. The training, which was paid for by the school, included firearms and situational drills. The employees, who have furnished their own guns, each also had to pass a background check, a drug test and a mental evaluation — all of which must be repeated annually, as well as additional firearms training and recertification.

“It’s not a ‘Well, here’s your gun; carry it,’ ” said Vic Williams, the Fairview superintendent. “It’s very closely monitored. It’s not a Clint Eastwood-type deal.”

At the first school board meeting after spring break, the board sanctioned those who had passed the training — and were then also considered Shield Solutions employees — to carry weapons at school. Most of West Plains learned the news from the front-page article in The Quill on March 21. Four days later, the district sent a letter to parents addressing concerns.

“I was really upset more about the way it happened, the back door,” said Eileen Wilson, 53, adding that she was considering removing her daughter, who is autistic, from Fairview. “I just don’t think something of this magnitude is something you just put out in a press release. ‘Oh, by the way, we got 10 people packing weapons now in school.’ ”

Interesting, I guess the guys who said "we should allow the teachers to conceal carry" finally get to put their money where their mouth is.

Yep... have a few friends who told me this...

Only things that I don't like about the article is that they seem to go really out of their way to make it look like these people are a bunch of hicks. I'm not sure if that was intentionally meant to be a "Look at these stupid hicks" kind of thing, or if they were just trying to say "out there, this is normal." I'll let you guys decide on that.

At least we're armed hicks...

The one thing that bugs me the most though is that according to the article this was done behind "closed doors". If this is true, then I'd be pretty upset, even though I would be all for this kind of thing. Something that big you don't just drop on peoples' heads after it's already passed, as you risk angering people who might have supported it or remained ambivalent otherwise. At least say "hey parents, we're thinking about letting the teachers conceal carry, we'll be voting on it next month."

The school board did announce it publically way in advanced... the problem was that they announced it via their normal means. If you don't pay attention to your school board, you'll miss this communication. I guess they should've taken out an Ad in the local news paper? But, who reads the paper?

So yeah, what do you think Dakka? We already trust these people with our children's lives 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (sometimes more). If they weren't going nuts and stabbing them in the face with pencils, I don't think the average teacher is going to go on a rampage just because he conceal carrys a pistol. Especially if they go through the kind of thing like these teachers did, with a background check, mental test, and drug testing, as well as yearly requalification, which is much more strict than what your average CCL holder goes through. What I wonder though is if this would actually intimidate most school shootings from happening, or if they'd keep happening even if every school adopted this policy. And if a student did try to shoot up a school with this policy, would the teacher be able to take that kid's life in order to protect the rest of the class? Because even if the teacher was in the right and that kid was dual wielding M60's, you know there'd be a media gakstorm the like of which we've never seen.

Since this is in my backyard... 'bout time!

**MrMoustaffa**

juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Would be pretty hard, these teachers aren't open carrying on the hip, they've got the firearms concealed on their person where you can't see it.

If a K-8 child can overpower a teacher and steal his weapon without the teacher being able to react in time, we've got bigger problems. Plus the students and family don't know who the armed teachers are (yet). As long as a teacher isn't stupid enough to print or show his gun off, you'd have no idea if he's really armed or just one of the teachers who decided they'd rather not carry.

**Frazzled**

Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

**Kovnik Obama**

juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

**Dreadclaw69**

These people are trained by local SWAT officers, and must pass an annual background check, drug test and mental health exam to stay qualified (plus the other certifications required). The school board let the parents know through what appears to be the usual channels, the news picked up on it in due time an reported it.

I'm not seeing what the issue is here, so good for them.

**whembly**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
These people are trained by local SWAT officers, and must pass an annual background check, drug test and mental health exam to stay qualified (plus the other certifications required). The school board let the parents know through what appears to be the usual channels, the news picked up on it in due time an reported it.

I'm not seeing what the issue is here, so good for them.

But THNK OF THE CHILDRENZ!!!!

Frazzled... the whip and chair isn't to keep the hyenas away... it's to "encourage" respect.

Where there's a whip... there's a way...

**Hordini**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

**Dreadclaw69**

whembly wrote:
But THNK OF THE CHILDRENZ!!!!

When people seriously reach for that as the hysterical first plank of their argument all I can picture is;

**Frazzled**

whembly wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
These people are trained by local SWAT officers, and must pass an annual background check, drug test and mental health exam to stay qualified (plus the other certifications required). The school board let the parents know through what appears to be the usual channels, the news picked up on it in due time an reported it.

I'm not seeing what the issue is here, so good for them.

But THNK OF THE CHILDRENZ!!!!

Frazzled... the whip and chair isn't to keep the hyenas away... it's to "encourage" respect.

Where there's a whip... there's a way...

EXACTLY!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hordini wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

So are you really arguing instead that more teachers should be smacking their students? Now thats old school.

**Hordini**

Frazzled wrote:

Hordini wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

So are you really arguing instead that more teachers should be smacking their students? Now thats old school.

Not really. I just don't get this idea that teachers who don't lose their temper and smack students are all of a sudden going to start losing their tempers and shooting students if they're allowed to concealed carry after completing a substantial training and certification course. Or even that getting pissed off in general while CCing means that the person CCing is going to start shooting people.

**Grey Templar**

Well yeah, but of course plenty of people do think thats exactly what will happen.

Dumb of course, but its there.

**Frazzled**

Hordini wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

Hordini wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

So are you really arguing instead that more teachers should be smacking their students? Now thats old school.

Not really. I just don't get this idea that teachers who don't lose their temper and smack students are all of a sudden going to start losing their tempers and shooting students if they're allowed to concealed carry after completing a substantial training and certification course. Or even that getting pissed off in general while CCing means that the person CCing is going to start shooting people.

Agreed. But lets admit it, little Timmy needs a smack upside the head. Pull those pants up Little Timmy and pay attention you mouthbreathing nattering nabob!

**azazel the cat**

So... if teachers are allowed to conceal-carry in schools... and Missouri is a Stand Your Ground state... and it's been well established that pointing in a gun-like fashion with your thumb & forefinger is considered a weapon in schools...

I give it six months before a teacher feels intimidated by a kid that ate a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun and shoots him.

**djones520**

azazel the cat wrote:
So... if teachers are allowed to conceal-carry in schools... and Missouri is a Stand Your Ground state... and it's been well established that pointing in a gun-like fashion with your thumb & forefinger is considered a weapon in schools...

I give it six months before a teacher feels intimidated by a kid that ate a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun and shoots him.

Come on. The people who are intimidated by kids with pop-tart guns are likely to gak themselves at the thought of actually holding one.

**Eetion**

Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

**Frazzled**

azazel the cat wrote:
So... if teachers are allowed to conceal-carry in schools... and Missouri is a Stand Your Ground state... and it's been well established that pointing in a gun-like fashion with your thumb & forefinger is considered a weapon in schools...

I give it six months before a teacher feels intimidated by a kid that ate a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun and shoots him.

Welll then the rest of them will learn not to eat a pop tart. once again, evolution serves!

**djones520**

Eetion wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

Which is just fine. Though we share a common background, our cultures are drastically different. That's why it irritates me so much when you guys tell us how off base we are. In our eyes, you guys are just as insane.

**Frazzled**

Eetion wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

Nutjobs trying to kill kids sounds like terrorism to me.
Thats ok. We've seen your dental care. Now THATS abhorrent.

And don't forget Death to the Queen!

(which is quite different than death to Queen, who were really awesome).

**djones520**

Frazzled wrote:
Eetion wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

Nutjobs trying to kill kids sounds like terrorism to me.
Thats ok. We've seen your dental care. Now THATS abhorrent.

I lol'ed.

**Grey Templar**

djones520 wrote:
Eetion wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

Which is just fine. Though we share a common background, our cultures are drastically different. That's why it irritates me so much when you guys tell us how off base we are. In our eyes, you guys are just as insane.

Indeed, heck the general "superior than thou" vibe many Europeans seem to exibit towards American customs and laws is annoying.

**whembly**

Eetion wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Meh who cares. Israeli teachers are armed.

Now what they should do is equip the Jr. High teachers with whips and chairs "Down you pack of hyenas! Down!"

Israeli school security are armed following a series of terrorist attacks.
Coordinated terrorist assaults with specific intention of targeting youth is not the same as derranged individuals. And israeli gun controls are actually quite strict. (Or so I understand)

But speaking as a brit. It just seems absolutely horrendous. The laxity in your gun control laws compared to the uks is considered shocking. A general opinion of 'that is absolutely nuts!' And anyone here who would advocate guns in schools would quite literally be laughed at the sheer idiocy of allowing guns in an even remotely close proximity to children.

But then we have no great love for guns, some shotguns dotted about the countryside, and no much else.

So as a brit, I can't see it as anything but Abhorrent.

You immigrated to the US recently?

Don't worry... give it enough time and we'll corrupt you.

Soon, you'll be armed to the teeth!

**Kovnik Obama**

Hordini wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

Who said teachers aren't wacking their students with their hand? One threw a desk at me once... well he was aiming for someone else but I was the one who got hit.

And I deserved it too.

**Hordini**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Kovnik Obama wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Give it 8 months, a kid will get one of the guns in his hand and wack a teacher.

Give it 8 months, a teacher will wack a kid.

Who probably deserved it.

If a teacher isn't wacking a student with their hand, why would they wack a student with a gun? Why don't police officers just shoot everyone who pisses them off?

Who said teachers aren't wacking their students with their hand? One threw a desk at me once... well he was aiming for someone else but I was the one who got hit.

And I deserved it too.

Nobody said they weren't. In some states corporal punishment in schools is still legal, but around here it would cost a teacher their job. In addition, I would question the idea that a teacher who would smack a student would also shoot a student. There's this thing called escalation of force which has some pretty strict requirements and is discussed at length in basic CCW courses. I'd be willing to bet it was hammered home continuously during the more in-depth training any of these teachers received.

**azazel the cat**

djones520 wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
So... if teachers are allowed to conceal-carry in schools... and Missouri is a Stand Your Ground state... and it's been well established that pointing in a gun-like fashion with your thumb & forefinger is considered a weapon in schools...

I give it six months before a teacher feels intimidated by a kid that ate a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun and shoots him.

Come on. The people who are intimidated by kids with pop-tart guns are likely to gak themselves at the thought of actually holding one.

Also the most likely people to be carrying a firearm. (go on, tell me it's not a fear-based culture)

**Howard A Treesong**

Hordini wrote:
In addition, I would question the idea that a teacher who would smack a student would also shoot a student.

Usually yes, but there are several cases where teachers have cracked under continual pressure from kids and attacked them with what they had to hand, a book, a chair, etc. Certainly the child provoked them, and some children are awful, and push people to the edge. It would be nice to think that these situations shouldn't happen, but the reality is that a lot of schools are less them perfect when it comes to supporting their staff in and outside of the classroom and people are allowed to become strained and ill. I've known teachers that have had breakdowns because of this, others that have returned to work before they were ready and put under pressure by the school instead of supported. One of my primary school teachers eventually lost his job because he shouted in kids faces and manhandled one out of the room. He'd only been back a few weeks after being off for stress. But it's more common than you'd hope, teachers go sick, come back and are pushed straight back in the classroom with huge classes, no support and some extremely disruptive pupils.

Here's an extreme case. A teacher was charged with attempted murder of a pupil who pushed him too far when he was mentally fragile after returning to work and likely not supported properly by the school. He didn't serve a prison sentence, despite hitting the kid and shouting 'die die die'. He was a well liked, experienced teacher with a good record, but he still eventually cracked under the strain, and violently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8643553.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/apr/29/teacher-peter-harvey-pupil

While an extreme example, I'm sure there are many cases of teachers hitting disruptive pupils because they lose control. But give them guns, and they have the power to shoot someone dead in a moment. It's just a bad idea. Are school shootings so common? Is arming the teaching staff really an effective means to prevent them? Or is it more likely to lead to accidents and misuse? It'll be interesting to see if the first person shot by a teacher is in fact an armed intruder.

**daedalus**

To be fair, Missouri is very much so a "okay, well, here's your gun" kind of state in general, not that I think that is necessarily a bad thing.

**whembly**

daedalus wrote:
To be fair, Missouri is very much so a "okay, well, here's your gun" kind of state in general, not that I think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Except when the Highway Patrol department illegally sends CCW data to the DHS.

My state is weird sometimes...