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What are the chances they could whip up such a significant number of bombs in less than a day?

I could maybe suspend disbelief for them getting armed and involved in a shootout, but bombs? The chance of that just seems way too improbable to believe it.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions, many of which are borderline crazy.


1) You assume they are innocent. Ok, thats fine. Innocent till proven guilty and all that.

2) You assume their first reaction would be to arm themselves when they have been wrongly accused of something. While this may be common with career criminals who usually have multiple violations, and thus even if the initial charge is false they may still go down for something else, it seems unlikely for someone without a criminal record. Much less someone who appears to have had a reasonably decent education and no history of violations.

3) And finally, you assume they would also quickly whip up some bombs in less than a day. They couldn't have had those materials just sitting around, I doubt anyone but the most avid black powder shooter keeps enough of the stuff around to make a handful of bombs. This would have meant they would have had to go a purchase a bunch of it on short notice. I think any store in the immediate area of a recent terror attack that sells blackpowder is going to be suspicious of anyone buying copious amounts of it and probably report it.

"Might" is probably a wrong term to use. From their way of thinking, "likely to" or "almost certainly" would be more accurate. Even though they are no longer in the days of the KGB, Putin still runs the police in very, very questionable ways, as highlighted by the previous treatment of Chechnyan rebels when they took hostages.

If I was pursued by US police outside of Oakland, I would give myself up for arrest, and accept that a broken bone or two from the more "enthusiastic" East-Coast PD is at least better than getting shot.

But if I were being pursued by Russian police, there is every chance in the world I would do my damnedest to get as far away as possible from them and the bullets they would fill me with even if I did surrender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are the chances they could whip up such a significant number of bombs in less than a day?

If Terminator is anything to go by, they can be whipped up inside of a couple hours...

 Ahtman wrote:
If one is concerned about such a thing they could have gone to any attorney to have them negotiate a surrender, or any news organization. There are a number of ways to surrender to the authorities under scrutiny; believing a running gun battle with explosives is the only way to go is pure insanity.

Unless they are handloaders (assuming gunpowder boms here) where did they get the boom juice and guns. I mean most people don't have that stuff laying around.
yes, yes, I didn't say myself. I said most people. What next thing you'll be telling me the homemade rocket propelled chainsaw in the closet is illegal er, did I say too much

 darkPrince010 wrote:
"Might" is probably a wrong term to use. From their way of thinking, "likely to" or "almost certainly" would be more accurate. Even though they are no longer in the days of the KGB, Putin still runs the police in very, very questionable ways, as highlighted by the previous treatment of Chechnyan rebels when they took hostages.

If I was pursued by US police outside of Oakland, I would give myself up for arrest, and accept that a broken bone or two from the more "enthusiastic" East-Coast PD is at least better than getting shot.

But if I were being pursued by Russian police, there is every chance in the world I would do my damnedest to get as far away as possible from them and the bullets they would fill me with even if I did surrender.

Well yeah, it does depend on the police in question.

But these guys have been living here for some time and going to school.

While they may not trust the police just out of habit they almost certaintly know the American police arn't going to shoot them out of hand unless the officers themselves are threatened.

 darkPrince010 wrote:
"Might" is probably a wrong term to use. From their way of thinking, "likely to" or "almost certainly" would be more accurate. Even though they are no longer in the days of the KGB, Putin still runs the police in very, very questionable ways, as highlighted by the previous treatment of Chechnyan rebels when they took hostages.

If I was pursued by US police outside of Oakland, I would give myself up for arrest, and accept that a broken bone or two from the more "enthusiastic" East-Coast PD is at least better than getting shot.

But if I were being pursued by Russian police, there is every chance in the world I would do my damnedest to get as far away as possible from them and the bullets they would fill me with even if I did surrender.

Ok, DP gets what I'm driving at. You guys have to understand that they're from a place where the police is not the common man's friend. They show up, and you disappear. Assuming they don't simply kill you.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are the chances they could whip up such a significant number of bombs in less than a day?

I could maybe suspend disbelief for them getting armed and involved in a shootout, but bombs? The chance of that just seems way too improbable to believe it.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions, many of which are borderline crazy.


1) You assume they are innocent. Ok, thats fine. Innocent till proven guilty and all that.

2) You assume their first reaction would be to arm themselves when they have been wrongly accused of something. While this may be common with career criminals who usually have multiple violations, and thus even if the initial charge is false they may still go down for something else, it seems unlikely for someone without a criminal record. Much less someone who appears to have had a reasonably decent education and no history of violations.

3) And finally, you assume they would also quickly whip up some bombs in less than a day. They couldn't have had those materials just sitting around, I doubt anyone but the most avid black powder shooter keeps enough of the stuff around to make a handful of bombs. This would have meant they would have had to go a purchase a bunch of it on short notice. I think any store in the immediate area of a recent terror attack that sells blackpowder is going to be suspicious of anyone buying copious amounts of it and probably report it.

Its not possible. Seriously. Because of the Obama Bullet Bubble Scare II, reloading supplies have been nonexistent since February. FInding powder right now requires a map, a pirate ship, and taLking parrot.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Well yeah, it does depend on the police in question.

But these guys have been living here for some time and going to school.

While they may not trust the police just out of habit they almost certaintly know the American police arn't going to shoot them out of hand unless the officers themselves are threatened.

Yeah, but panicking people are not rational, they run on instinct. I'm sure when the surviving kid calms down and thinks about it, he's likely to turn himself in.

But these guys didn't just get off the boat, they've been living here for a while.

Even if they don't trust the police completely, they can't seriously think the police are anything like whats back in Russia.

And even if they did, the probability of them making bombs to defend themselves is just ludicriously tiny.

Do you guys remember this?




2 ladies mistaken for Cop-killer-on-the-run Chris Dorner? who were none the less shot at by police officers?




Makes me think why someone who sees their face on national TV as a mass murderer might feel that anyone he turns himself into might turn into a vigilante... Not that it is rational, but I would assume he is operating on fight or flight.. In light of the Dorner story I was surprised the innocent kid strolled into a police station without being turned into swiss cheese in the process...

Not that I think the kid on the run is innocent, he appears guilty, I'm just trying to understand how he is thinking and figured i would chip in 2c

 Frazzled wrote:

Its not possible. Seriously. Because of the Obama Bullet Bubble Scare II, reloading supplies have been nonexistent since February. FInding powder right now requires a map, a pirate ship, and taLking parrot.

Stores around here are well stocked. I bought ten pounds of FFG powder today. So, depends.

To be honest if they thought the police acted like they did from where they came from, then why would they come here, You wouldnt feel any safer than before so moving to the US would have been pointless.

And since they have lived here for a good few years atleast, and been weel educated (I guess ? ) means they would not just pick up a gun a load of amunition make some bombs and leg it...

Edited: because i'm terrible at typing.

Right now the biggest sticking point to me is lack of motive. You have two honors students, one who is a father, and by all accounts seemed normal and levelheaded that spontaneously decided to perform a terrorist attack and stockpile equipment for more of them. The Amazon wishlist and youtube channel stink of fabrication to me, and the facebook doesn't have anything that would lend support to my believing anything more than their sympathy towards Chechnyan rebels. Their choice of target, both location and time, strikes me in no way as supporting or even lending attention to the Chechnyan situation abroad.

Plus, think as to how many end-of-the-world survivalist-types you know who fear "Big Government" coming to take away their guns and/or rights. I personally know three different families who have this way of thinking, one of which that an end-of-days food stockpile (And several firearms), and another that has a literal arsenal (Legally, it's licensed as such), and both with more than enough blackpowder to make a half-dozen pipebombs. By no means is that not grounds for suspicion, but think as to how it would look on national TV if said acquaintances and their collections were trotted out and analyzed on daytime TV?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 darkPrince010 wrote:
"Might" is probably a wrong term to use. From their way of thinking, "likely to" or "almost certainly" would be more accurate. Even though they are no longer in the days of the KGB, Putin still runs the police in very, very questionable ways, as highlighted by the previous treatment of Chechnyan rebels when they took hostages.

If I was pursued by US police outside of Oakland, I would give myself up for arrest, and accept that a broken bone or two from the more "enthusiastic" East-Coast PD is at least better than getting shot.

But if I were being pursued by Russian police, there is every chance in the world I would do my damnedest to get as far away as possible from them and the bullets they would fill me with even if I did surrender.

Ok, DP gets what I'm driving at. You guys have to understand that they're from a place where the police is not the common man's friend. They show up, and you disappear. Assuming they don't simply kill you.

Are you saying someone who's lived here for TEN YEARS si going to do that at the drop of a hat? Thats not sane.

skyfi wrote:

Do you guys remember this?




2 ladies mistaken for Cop-killer-on-the-run Chris Dorner? who were none the less shot at by police officers?




Makes me think why someone who sees their face on national TV as a mass murderer might feel that anyone he turns himself into might turn into a vigilante... Not that it is rational, but I would assume he is operating on fight or flight.. In light of the Dorner story I was surprised the innocent kid strolled into a police station without being turned into swiss cheese in the process...

Not that I think the kid on the run is innocent, he appears guilty, I'm just trying to understand how he is thinking and figured i would chip in 2c

Yeah well, gak happens. The LAPD hasn't had the best track record I'll admit and I still don't understand what happened there. But its most certaintly an outlier.

I'd take my chances with the LAPD over making the situation worse by just incriminating myself by making bombs, having a firefight, and killing an Officer. Even the most scared and panicked individual would know that making a bomb is not going to help his case.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Its not possible. Seriously. Because of the Obama Bullet Bubble Scare II, reloading supplies have been nonexistent since February. FInding powder right now requires a map, a pirate ship, and taLking parrot.

Stores around here are well stocked. I bought ten pounds of FFG powder today. So, depends.

Whats awesome is:
1. Where do you live at?
2. What kind? UniQ? Herakles?

 Frazzled wrote:


Whats awesome is:
1. Where do you live at?
2. What kind? UniQ? Herakles?

Goex. And atm I'm in Pennsylvania.

 Frazzled wrote:

Are you saying someone who's lived here for TEN YEARS si going to do that at the drop of a hat? Thats not sane.

It took a pal of mine that long to stop moving chairs so his back wasn't toward a door.

I imagine that if the two women in the truck that was mistakenly identified as the cop hunters had whipped out weapons and bombs and started attacking the police and led them on a chase they would be alive today to sue the living bejesus out of the LAPD.

 Frazzled wrote:

Are you saying someone who's lived here for TEN YEARS si going to do that at the drop of a hat? Thats not sane.

I refer you to:



and my post about end-of-days nutters. People do stupid gak all the time, especially preparing for stupid never-gonna-happen scenarios. It's no leap of imagination to me that instead of "Stockpile supplies for Armageddon" folks you get in the US, Chechnyans have "Stockpile Supplies for the Secret Police Break-in."

Stupid and paranoid? Certainly, and in this case further implicates them as the bombers (Just like an end-of-days nutter with barrels of food would be looked at with closer scrutiny in the event of a local bulk-dried-goods theft).

Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

Not that the FBI will ever admit to a screw up that Epic in a million years. They still insist that Leonard Peltier is a cop killer, after all.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Whats awesome is:
1. Where do you live at?
2. What kind? UniQ? Herakles?

Goex. And atm I'm in Pennsylvania.

We'll assume you speaking ze truth here. I've not heard of anyone scoring powder recently, but then again I don't know blackpowder. Now that I think about it - blackpowder? are you a re-enactor? Thats not gunpowder. Would that stuff even make something explode? I mean ok it would but its really really really weak. A lot of smoke yea but as an explosive I've had farts with more power, and that was just today. In the words of the immortal bard smokeles rules and blackpowder drools!

 Frazzled wrote:

Are you saying someone who's lived here for TEN YEARS si going to do that at the drop of a hat? Thats not sane.

It took a pal of mine that long to stop moving chairs so his back wasn't toward a door.

Why did he stop? I don't.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

Not that the FBI will ever admit to a screw up that Epic in a million years. They still insist that Leonard Peltier is a cop killer, after all.

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

 Grey Templar wrote:

skyfi wrote:

Do you guys remember this?




2 ladies mistaken for Cop-killer-on-the-run Chris Dorner? who were none the less shot at by police officers?




Makes me think why someone who sees their face on national TV as a mass murderer might feel that anyone he turns himself into might turn into a vigilante... Not that it is rational, but I would assume he is operating on fight or flight.. In light of the Dorner story I was surprised the innocent kid strolled into a police station without being turned into swiss cheese in the process...

Not that I think the kid on the run is innocent, he appears guilty, I'm just trying to understand how he is thinking and figured i would chip in 2c

Yeah well, gak happens. The LAPD hasn't had the best track record I'll admit and I still don't understand what happened there. But its most certaintly an outlier.

I'd take my chances with the LAPD over making the situation worse by just incriminating myself by making bombs, having a firefight, and killing an Officer. Even the most scared and panicked individual would know that making a bomb is not going to help his case.

Heh, already said I don't suspect the kid in question is innocent. He seems "guilty as hell" to me personally (as in there should be witnesses to his brother and him in gun fights that would testify, etc) . I was trying to introduce information that seems relevant to how one perceives the police in the US, especially regarding highly publicized recent news stories... someone already mentioned Bucky in NY already.. (where I got the "guilty as hell" from in fact)...

I agree he made the situation worse by doing all of what you mentioned.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:
I imagine that if the two women in the truck that was mistakenly identified as the cop hunters had whipped out weapons and bombs and started attacking the police and led them on a chase they would be alive today to sue the living bejesus out of the LAPD.

would be story of the year

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

I think you and I have a different version of hilarious.... maybe I need my tinfoil hat on to appreciate what you're getting at

 Frazzled wrote:

We'll assume you speaking ze truth here. I've not heard of anyone scoring powder recently, but then again I don't know the PA market.

It's all a matter of knowing which gunshops do the most business. The guys that don't have a lot of heavy business or cater to musket owners still have quite a bit of black powder. Smokeless is harder to come by.

 Frazzled wrote:

Why did he stop? I don't.

Because he wasn't in a totalitarian state ruled by fear any more. And it took him ten years to get to the point that he trusted the US enough to let his guard down, even a little.

 d-usa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

Not that the FBI will ever admit to a screw up that Epic in a million years. They still insist that Leonard Peltier is a cop killer, after all.

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

See, self-defense against unwarranted police brutality is something I have absolutely no problem with. Just because someone is wearing a badge doesn't make the bullets they're firing at you (Presuming you're innocent) any more "right" or less deadly.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

We'll assume you speaking ze truth here. I've not heard of anyone scoring powder recently, but then again I don't know the PA market.

It's all a matter of knowing which gunshops do the most business. The guys that don't have a lot of heavy business or cater to musket owners still have quite a bit of black powder. Smokeless is harder to come by.

 Frazzled wrote:

Why did he stop? I don't.

Because he wasn't in a totalitarian state ruled by fear any more. And it took him ten years to get to the point that he trusted the US enough to let his guard down, even a little.

Yes I was referring to smokeless powder, not blackpowder. Thats really meh as a boomer. too slow.

As to the totolitarian state thing, nah, just live in some bad neighborhoods and you do that, or be raised by a former DI.

Shooting at the police isn't self defense, it is suicide-by-cop.

 d-usa wrote:

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

True, but panicking people rarely think things through. My concern is that hte younger, and probably more rah, of the two might do something really stupid next.


Fraz, I've lived in some really bad places too. But not THIS bad.

 Ahtman wrote:
Shooting at the police isn't self defense, it is suicide-by-cop.

Depends where you are. A person of my acquaintance was making a hasty exit from a certain Latin American country. They killed and wounded over 20 boarder agents, and lost two men of their own, but managed to get away.

 darkPrince010 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

Not that the FBI will ever admit to a screw up that Epic in a million years. They still insist that Leonard Peltier is a cop killer, after all.

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

See, self-defense against unwarranted police brutality is something I have absolutely no problem with. Just because someone is wearing a badge doesn't make the bullets they're firing at you (Presuming you're innocent) any more "right" or less deadly.

You have an interesting view of self defense there. Cops might shoot at me so if they show up I will chunk a grenade at them, because its self defense. Ok....

How about the rent a cop they wacked? How about holding up the convenience store and stealing a car?

 darkPrince010 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if they turn out to have been innocent after all and the real bombers got away in the confusion?

Not that the FBI will ever admit to a screw up that Epic in a million years. They still insist that Leonard Peltier is a cop killer, after all.

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

See, self-defense against unwarranted police brutality is something I have absolutely no problem with. Just because someone is wearing a badge doesn't make the bullets they're firing at you (Presuming you're innocent) any more "right" or less deadly.

I think the argument people are making is that when you're allegedly chukking pipe bombs at the police who are pursuing you, you sort of lose your right to claim self defense.