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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

True, but panicking people rarely think things through. My concern is that hte younger, and probably more rah, of the two might do something really stupid next.


Fraz, I've lived in some really bad places too. But not THIS bad.

I once stayed at a Motel 6. The horror. The horror.

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Call me heartless, but if they are innocent it will have absolutely zero impact on the death of at least one of them. Whatever innocence he may have had was lost the moment he opened fire on the police.

True, but panicking people rarely think things through. My concern is that hte younger, and probably more rah, of the two might do something really stupid next.


Fraz, I've lived in some really bad places too. But not THIS bad.

I once stayed at a Motel 6. The horror. The horror.

Dude... never AGAIN! That damned bed bug ATE my shoes!

I think a lot of you keep coming back to the idea that these guys think the police 'might' shoot them. The idea that they would be almost absolutely certain of it seems to be a concept some of you struggle with.

 Frazzled wrote:

You have an interesting view of self defense there. Cops might shoot at me so if they show up I will chunk a grenade at them, because its self defense. Ok....

How about the rent a cop they wacked? How about holding up the convenience store and stealing a car?

skyfi wrote:I think the argument people are making is that when you're allegedly chukking pipe bombs at the police who are pursuing you, you sort of lose your right to claim self defense.

Oh, I'm not saying they are innocent. I'm just saying if someone is shooting at you, especially police, they're shooting to kill, and the best way to live is to either get the hell away, or in the words of Malcom Reynolds, "Kill them right back."

Not shooting back won't make cops stop trying to shoot-to-kill if they started doing so already, and given a choice of "Lay down me weapon and let myself die" or "Fire back and have a slim chance of maybe-maybe-maybe making it out of this alive," I'll choose the second option every time.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I think a lot of you keep coming back to the idea that these guys think the police 'might' shoot them. The idea that they would be almost absolutely certain of it seems to be a concept some of you struggle with.

Okay you actually surmising that the suspects are actually innocent and that they're freaked out, started shooting, throwing pipe bombs because of their alleged fear of the LEO? And that they're not the true Boston Bombers?

I hope he's brought in alive I'd like some answers.

Also I don't begrudge the relatives for saying those brothers are innocent or were set up. If someone were to tell me that my nephew had killed a load of people and was now on the run I'd call them all liars too.

That said I think their actions are those of guilty men.

 whembly wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I think a lot of you keep coming back to the idea that these guys think the police 'might' shoot them. The idea that they would be almost absolutely certain of it seems to be a concept some of you struggle with.

Okay you actually surmising that the suspects are actually innocent and that they're freaked out, started shooting, throwing pipe bombs because of their alleged fear of the LEO? And that they're not the true Boston Bombers?

No, he's not saying that. He's saying that regardless of their innocence, their reactions to cops will be to shoot since their frame of reference regarding cops is that of Whoever Shoots First Wins. The idea of peaceful surrender to cops is a foreign idea to them because in their experience that would be a death sentence almost immediately.

 whembly wrote:

Okay you actually surmising that the suspects are actually innocent and that they're freaked out, started shooting, throwing pipe bombs because of their alleged fear of the LEO? And that they're not the true Boston Bombers?

Until I'm handed something that makes a damn bit of sense in this, yes, I'll assume they're innocent. (Remember Richard Jewel, anyone? The supposed Olympic Park Bomber?)

Again, they didn't make a move until after their picture got splattered all over the TV as the 'guilty' ones. Let me posit this: if thy were really the Boston Bombers, why did they let the guy they car jacked go? The smart thing to do would have been to murder him.

Regardless if they did it or not, the idea of a peaceful surrender to police is as alien to them as the sort of political doublethink that went on in the Soviet Union would be to you.

 darkPrince010 wrote:

No, he's not saying that. He's saying that regardless of their innocence, their reactions to cops will be to shoot since their frame of reference regarding cops is that of Whoever Shoots First Wins. The idea of peaceful surrender to cops is a foreign idea to them because in their experience that would be a death sentence almost immediately.

Oh... duh Sorry Baron... thanks DP.

Weird...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Okay you actually surmising that the suspects are actually innocent and that they're freaked out, started shooting, throwing pipe bombs because of their alleged fear of the LEO? And that they're not the true Boston Bombers?

Until I'm handed something that makes a damn bit of sense in this, yes, I'll assume they're innocent. (Remember Richard Jewel, anyone? The supposed Olympic Park Bomber?)

Again, they didn't make a move until after their picture got splattered all over the TV as the 'guilty' ones. Let me posit this: if thy were really the Boston Bombers, why did they let the guy they car jacked go? The smart thing to do would have been to murder him.

If you are really innocent, then why kill a rent-a-cop and rob a store?

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Also I don't begrudge the relatives for saying those brothers are innocent or were set up. If someone were to tell me that my nephew had killed a load of people and was now on the run I'd call them all liars too.

This is what the family is saying:

An uncle of the two Boston Marathon bombing suspects is urging the surviving suspect, Dzhozkar Tsarnaev, to surrender to authorities.

"Dzhozkar, if you’re alive, turn yourself in and ask for forgiveness from the victims, the injured and those who are left," Ruslan Tsarni said on Friday. "He put a shame on our family. He put a shame on the entire Chechen ethnicity. Turn yourself in."

and

Tsarni said he had not spoken to his nephews in several years and called them "losers" unable to "settle themselves in."

Tsarni said his nephews had no political motives and were not connected to any radical activity in Chechnya, even though the family are ethnic Chechen.

"They've never been to Chechnya!" Tsarni said.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Again, they didn't make a move until after their picture got splattered all over the TV as the 'guilty' ones. Let me posit this: if thy were really the Boston Bombers, why did they let the guy they car jacked go? The smart thing to do would have been to murder him.

You do have a point...

I wonder if they were able to forensically prove that the pipe bombs they found at the brother's house were the same used at the marathon...??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Okay you actually surmising that the suspects are actually innocent and that they're freaked out, started shooting, throwing pipe bombs because of their alleged fear of the LEO? And that they're not the true Boston Bombers?

Until I'm handed something that makes a damn bit of sense in this, yes, I'll assume they're innocent. (Remember Richard Jewel, anyone? The supposed Olympic Park Bomber?)

Again, they didn't make a move until after their picture got splattered all over the TV as the 'guilty' ones. Let me posit this: if thy were really the Boston Bombers, why did they let the guy they car jacked go? The smart thing to do would have been to murder him.

If you are really innocent, then why kill a rent-a-cop and rob a store?

Yeah... that's primary why I think they got the right suspect now... 'cuz, that doesn't line up being terrified of the LEOs.

 whembly wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Again, they didn't make a move until after their picture got splattered all over the TV as the 'guilty' ones. Let me posit this: if thy were really the Boston Bombers, why did they let the guy they car jacked go? The smart thing to do would have been to murder him.

You do have a point...

I wonder if they were able to forensically prove that the pipe bombs they found at the brother's house were the same used at the marathon...??

Keep in mind the "bombs" used in the Watertown shootout are just presumed to be pipe bombs, and that the Boston Marathon bombs were in pressure cookers. I don't know enough about forensics to say whether or not the gunpowder from either explosion can be traced to each other, but the bombs could likely be very different types.

Woah... just saw this on twittah... Sure looks like the Tsarnaev boys had bigger plans:

MORE: 7 IEDs recovered in the searches so far, some in Watertown & some at the house in Cambridge, police officials say

— NBC Nightly News (@nbcnightlynews) April 19, 2013

Also a tidbit from the Daily Mail piece in case you think there’s any doubt that they’re guilty:

Alvi Tsarnaev told The (Westchester County, N.Y.) Journal News that his nephew phoned him Thursday night for the first time in about two years.

The call came at 7 p.m., just a couple of hours before Tamerlan was shot dead.

“He said, ‘I love you and forgive me,’ ” said Alvi Tsarnaev, who lives in Montgomery Village, Md.

 darkPrince010 wrote:
Keep in mind the "bombs" used in the Watertown shootout are just presumed to be pipe bombs, and that the Boston Marathon bombs were in pressure cookers. I don't know enough about forensics to say whether or not the gunpowder from either explosion can be traced to each other, but the bombs could likely be very different types.

Sort of hard to throw a pressure cooker, never mind carry several and then throw them

 whembly wrote:

Also a tidbit from the Daily Mail piece in case you think there’s any doubt that they’re guilty:

Alvi Tsarnaev told The (Westchester County, N.Y.) Journal News that his nephew phoned him Thursday night for the first time in about two years.

The call came at 7 p.m., just a couple of hours before Tamerlan was shot dead.

“He said, ‘I love you and forgive me,’ ” said Alvi Tsarnaev, who lives in Montgomery Village, Md.

Huh. Well, should that be verified, that's pretty much a clincher right there, since that would have been well before police pulled up outside, and unless they started whipping up bombs and making final amends when the police search for the suspects was announced, that seems pretty conclusive.

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... that's primary why I think they got the right suspect now... 'cuz, that doesn't line up being terrified of the LEOs.

I think how it played out was this: they freaked out, got out guns and made a few simple bombs. The cop gets shot hours after they're Ided responding to a disturbance. I'm betting they tried to hold up the store for supplies. Notice that no one was shot in the store, but the cop pulls up and gets shot in his car. This starts the ball rolling.


Edit: I read that hte report of additional devices had been discredited.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 darkPrince010 wrote:
Keep in mind the "bombs" used in the Watertown shootout are just presumed to be pipe bombs, and that the Boston Marathon bombs were in pressure cookers. I don't know enough about forensics to say whether or not the gunpowder from either explosion can be traced to each other, but the bombs could likely be very different types.

Sort of hard to throw a pressure cooker, never mind carry several and then throw them

I just mean that it might not be pipe bombs, and might be a different kind of explosive. I doubt they were chucking cookware out windows, as he was a wrestler and not a Track&Field person.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... that's primary why I think they got the right suspect now... 'cuz, that doesn't line up being terrified of the LEOs.

I think how it played out was this: they freaked out, got out guns and made a few simple bombs. The cop gets shot hours after they're Ided responding to a disturbance. I'm betting they tried to hold up the store for supplies. Notice that no one was shot in the store, but the cop pulls up and gets shot in his car. This starts the ball rolling.

One thing wrong with that...

. @cbsnews has been told last night’s 7-Eleven robbery in Cambridge, MA was NOT related to the Boston bombing suspects.

— Charlie Kaye (@CharlieKayeCBS) April 19, 2013

So... we still really don't know what the feth is going on...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Edit: I read that hte report of additional devices had been discredited.

The initial reports of extra bombs at the Marathon was discredited, but I think this was for what they found at the house, and I've seen several things about lots of other explosives being found there.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
Also I don't begrudge the relatives for saying those brothers are innocent or were set up. If someone were to tell me that my nephew had killed a load of people and was now on the run I'd call them all liars too.

This is what the family is saying:

An uncle of the two Boston Marathon bombing suspects is urging the surviving suspect, Dzhozkar Tsarnaev, to surrender to authorities.

"Dzhozkar, if you’re alive, turn yourself in and ask for forgiveness from the victims, the injured and those who are left," Ruslan Tsarni said on Friday. "He put a shame on our family. He put a shame on the entire Chechen ethnicity. Turn yourself in."

and

Tsarni said he had not spoken to his nephews in several years and called them "losers" unable to "settle themselves in."

Tsarni said his nephews had no political motives and were not connected to any radical activity in Chechnya, even though the family are ethnic Chechen.

"They've never been to Chechnya!" Tsarni said.

You're right I should have said "...those relatives..." instead of "...the relatives..."

I was specifically refering to the aunt.

 whembly wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... that's primary why I think they got the right suspect now... 'cuz, that doesn't line up being terrified of the LEOs.

I think how it played out was this: they freaked out, got out guns and made a few simple bombs. The cop gets shot hours after they're Ided responding to a disturbance. I'm betting they tried to hold up the store for supplies. Notice that no one was shot in the store, but the cop pulls up and gets shot in his car. This starts the ball rolling.

One thing wrong with that...

. @cbsnews has been told last night’s 7-Eleven robbery in Cambridge, MA was NOT related to the Boston bombing suspects.

— Charlie Kaye (@CharlieKayeCBS) April 19, 2013

So... we still really don't know what the feth is going on...

So, wait; So far, are they confirmed to have attacked/killed anyone besides cops so far? (Initial accusations about the Marathon aside)

Because if the only people who they have shot at and/or killed are cops (Especially lent credence by letting the person of the car they jacked go free and untouched), this leads further credence to Baron's theory about their possible innocence and their shooting being related to reactionary actions against police that they are rightfully afraid will kill them as soon as they possibly can.

My point was... we really don't know what the feth is going on... it's all speculation at this point.

I think it's confirmed the they did kill that MIT guard...

 darkPrince010 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Edit: I read that hte report of additional devices had been discredited.

The initial reports of extra bombs at the Marathon was discredited, but I think this was for what they found at the house, and I've seen several things about lots of other explosives being found there.

I went to NBC's website and clicked on the headline about the additional IEDs. The article has no mention of them. So...

The description of what the guy said he saw re the running gun battle matches black powder pipe bombs though. They had to light them and throw them, lots of white smoke.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

I went to NBC's website and clicked on the headline about the additional IEDs. The article has no mention of them. So...

The description of what the guy said he saw re the running gun battle matches black powder pipe bombs though. They had to light them and throw them, lots of white smoke.

Well.. reportedly, one of the Marathon victims ID'ed the bombers.

 whembly wrote:
My point was... we really don't know what the feth is going on... it's all speculation at this point.

I think it's confirmed the they did kill that MIT guard...

Pretty much this. By all means keep an open mind about events going on, especially while the facts are still fluid. But don't be so open minded that your brain falls out

 whembly wrote:

Well.. reportedly, one of the Marathon victims ID'ed the bombers.

Having been blown up myself, I'm surprised. I wasn't in a condition to identify my own parents and I wasn't in nearly as bad a shape as this guy.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Well.. reportedly, one of the Marathon victims ID'ed the bombers.

Having been blown up myself, I'm surprised. I wasn't in a condition to identify my own parents and I wasn't in nearly as bad a shape as this guy.

Not all bombs are equal eh? Maybe yours was more concussive than this victim (they had to amputate at least one leg)?

Is it just me or is anyone else surprised at how long it is taking to find this guy? I mean the had a twenty block zone cordoned off at four in the morning (EST) and they still haven't found his trail.

 Breotan wrote:
Is it just me or is anyone else surprised at how long it is taking to find this guy? I mean the had a twenty block zone cordoned off at four in the morning (EST) and they still haven't found his trail.

He might've gotten away... or he's hiding really good.