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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Well, so much for a trial by Jury. The suspect will not be given Miranda.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/no-miranda-rights-for-now-for-bombing-suspect-90362.html?hp=f1

I guess that gov feels it has a weak case then. We'll go directly to military interrogations.

I don't think that's appropriate. He's an American citizen*. He should be read his rights, given a fair trial, and then when found guilty, spend the rest of his life in prison with pedophiles, rapists. and murderers. We need to stop treating these guys like they're something special: they aren't. They aren't holy warriors, they aren't martyrs of Islam - they're just spree murderers and not any more special than Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein or whomever.

*This is presuming they don't find he is working as the agent of a foreign power, which is not yet in evidence either way

McVeigh got his trial and then the needle, that's good enough for this guy.

 Ouze wrote:

I don't think that's appropriate. He's an American citizen*. He should be read his rights, given a fair trial, and then when found guilty, spend the rest of his life in prison with pedophiles, rapists. and murderers. We need to stop treating these guys like they're something special: they aren't. They aren't holy warriors, they aren't martyrs of Islam - they're just spree murderers and not any more special than Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein or whomever.

That manner of thinking is outmoded, old boy. Don't you know, there's a new way, where your 'rights' are more like... guidelines that the government can take away any time they like! Trials to dertermine guilt are over rated. WE just try you in the press and then you disappear to a new homeland in the east.

*begins whistling 'Der Horstwessellied'.*

If you are going to Godwin the thread, at least get your grammar right...

 d-usa wrote:
If you are going to Godwin the thread, at least get your grammar right...

It's not a Godwin if the comparison is fair. Taking people's rights away just because the government says so so that they can be tried in secret if at all is an apt comparison.

 d-usa wrote:
McVeigh got his trial and then the needle, that's good enough for this guy.

Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, and I don't know a way to apply the federal death penalty here since they were all in a single state. Repeat, I *don't know*, not that there isn't.

That being said, I'd prefer him a life sentence, no parole. No martyrdom - not for you. No glorious speeches before the needle, no promises the jihad will continue... just a lifetime in supermax, 23 hours a day in a hole.

If you feel that strongly about this it makes your bad grammar even less excusable...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
McVeigh got his trial and then the needle, that's good enough for this guy.

Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, and I don't know a way to apply the federal death penalty here since they were all in a single state. Repeat, I *don't know*, not that there isn't.

That being said, I'd prefer him a life sentence, no parole. No martyrdom - not for you. No glorious speeches before the needle, no promises the jihad will continue... just a lifetime in supermax, 23 hours a day in a hole.

I would guess that they would have to find something "interstate" about this. Buying supplies online, communicating online, or anything along that line possibly.

Who was the cop he killed, if it was a federal agent it would probably do the trick.

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
McVeigh got his trial and then the needle, that's good enough for this guy.

Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, and I don't know a way to apply the federal death penalty here since they were all in a single state. Repeat, I *don't know*, not that there isn't.

That being said, I'd prefer him a life sentence, no parole. No martyrdom - not for you. No glorious speeches before the needle, no promises the jihad will continue... just a lifetime in supermax, 23 hours a day in a hole.

The question there is can we come up with charges that stick. We have him on aiding and abetting, conspiracy to commit, and fleeing the scene. Unless they have evidence I don't know about, we don't have a smoking gun in this case for the younger of the two. We can put him on the scene but that's really it..


Cop was a college rent a cop. Puts it firmly in the state's lap. And we'd have to prove he was the trigger man there, not his brother, who had the guns during the police chase.

Well, I'm presuming they can stick him with something. Presuming they do, it looks like you can take simple murder federal even in a non-capital-punishment state. I don't really know how this works in practice.

he will more then likely get charged with domestic terrorism which is a federal / capital offense

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I'm presuming they can stick him with something. Presuming they do, it looks like you can take simple murder federal even in a non-capital-punishment state. I don't really know how this works in practice.

You can claim anything is federal. All you have to prove is that it effected commerce in some way.

The problem is two fold. One, Federal courts are backed up like a Carnival cruise ship toilet. Two, we put him in gen pop and he'll be murdered within the week, guilty or no.

 ironicsilence wrote:
he will more then likely get charged with domestic terrorism which is a federal / capital offense

True, but there will be issues with that. The first and foremost being that the current laws are not, strictly speaking, Constitutional. And while I doubt the current court would fail to hang him high, even they would have ot admit that detaining him without his civil rights pretty much trashes the government's case. Remember that if he goes to a US court, failure to give him Miranda taints the government's case.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Remember that if he goes to a US court, failure to give him Miranda taints the government's case.

Not necessarily. It just means that any statements he gives while in custody until this occurs are probably not admissible. That doesn't mean they may not have enough evidence that it simply doesn't matter. If he confesses while in custody pre-mirandizing, they won't be able to use it (probably). If they have dozens of witnesses, tons of DNA, etc etc, though, it won't matter much.

 Ouze wrote:

Not necessarily. It just means that any statements he gives while in custody until this occurs are probably not admissible. That doesn't mean they may not have enough evidence that it simply doesn't matter. If he confesses while in custody pre-mirandizing, they won't be able to use it (probably).

No, because they have also denied him the right to representation, which is a little more far reaching. Remember that Miranda is more than just 'right to remain'. If they get a confession out of him (or beat one out of him) it's not admissible. The problem is that they're also not allowing him a lawyer to be present while the new CIA/FBI co-op works him over, which will probably determine what legal venue he gets remanded to. Which is a much bigger deal.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Well, I'm presuming they can stick him with something. Presuming they do, it looks like you can take simple murder federal even in a non-capital-punishment state. I don't really know how this works in practice.

You can claim anything is federal. All you have to prove is that it effected commerce in some way.

The problem is two fold. One, Federal courts are backed up like a Carnival cruise ship toilet. Two, we put him in gen pop and he'll be murdered within the week, guilty or no.

 ironicsilence wrote:
he will more then likely get charged with domestic terrorism which is a federal / capital offense

True, but there will be issues with that. The first and foremost being that the current laws are not, strictly speaking, Constitutional. And while I doubt the current court would fail to hang him high, even they would have ot admit that detaining him without his civil rights pretty much trashes the government's case. Remember that if he goes to a US court, failure to give him Miranda taints the government's case.

There are exceptions to the Miranda requirement if there is a legitimate and immediate public safety concern, which has been allowed by the courts - there may still be bombs out there, there may be other accomplices, so they can ask him questions about that. All it does to the case is mean that anything he says BEFORE he is read his Miranda rights cannot be used as evidence - this actually indicates that they probably have enough evidence for the case outside of what he will say/confess at the moment.

Also the guy was apparently unconscious when he was taken, so they might not have had much of a window to read him his rights yet, and that would be taken up with asking about public safety stuff. You can't read rights to an unconscious guy, and expect it to mean anything.

DOJ:
"The suspect is en route to the hospital for immediate treatment," the official tells TPM's Sahil Kapur. "But we plan to invoke the public safety exception to Miranda in order to question the suspect extensively about other potential explosive devices or accomplices and to gain critical intelligence."

Not advising him of his right to obtain representation is not the same as depriving him of representation.

 Ouze wrote:
Not advising him of his right to obtain representation is not the same as depriving him of representation.

So far, the sound of it is that he is being denied representation entirely. However, the Government has not apparently made a decision one way or the other if he should be tried in civil or military courts. As he's badly wounded and in the hospital, this might end up being moot anyway. I hope they're watching him close. and the Doctors and nurses as well.

Sometimes 'Do no hard' is just a guideline.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
If you are going to Godwin the thread, at least get your grammar right...

It's not a Godwin if the comparison is fair. Taking people's rights away just because the government says so so that they can be tried in secret if at all is an apt comparison.

Actually that isn't how Godwin works at all. It is only not Godwin'd if the subject is actually about Nazism and WWII. The point of Godwiin is that anyone can (and will) find comparisons between something they don't like and Nazism, so it is a useless and overused comparison. Such as here.

The issue of military or civilian courts will depend on if he's working with an outside group or if this is entirely domestic. Either way, I doubt he will wind up in military custody.

Well, I hope he lives, because I'd like to know why the f he did it, mostly why "here" and not "Moscow", or "Saint Petersburg".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Breotan wrote:
The issue of military or civilian courts will depend on if he's working with an outside group or if this is entirely domestic. Either way, I doubt he will wind up in military custody.

Yeah, I said "presuming" at the middle of this little thought exercise for the former. So far as the latter, why do you say? If a foreign power that seems a legitimate avenue to me.

 Ahtman wrote:

Actually that isn't how Godwin works at all. It is only not Godwin'd if the subject is actually about Nazism and WWII. The point of Godwiin is that anyone can (and will) find comparisons between something they don't like and Nazism, so it is a useless and overused comparison. Such as here.

Godwin himself added an exception for relevant comparisons when he wanted to talk about Abu Greib prison. Relevant comparisons do not invoke Godwin.

However, the 'Larson Corollary states:

“As an online discussion of a topic which can be legitimately compared to Nazis or Nazi related events grows, the probability of observing a laboured and unwarranted retreat or appeal to Godwin's Law approaches one.”





Edit:Here's a thought that brought a nostalgic smile to my face: 'What if he or his brother turned out to be/have been a Russian agent?'

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Actually that isn't how Godwin works at all. It is only not Godwin'd if the subject is actually about Nazism and WWII. The point of Godwiin is that anyone can (and will) find comparisons between something they don't like and Nazism, so it is a useless and overused comparison. Such as here.

Godwin himself added an exception for relevant comparisons when he wanted to talk about Abu Greib prison. Relevant comparisons do not invoke Godwin.

Even so, everyone thinks their crappy comparison is relevant, just as I imagine you think your crappy comparison is relevant, but that doesn't make it so. Comparing the US to Nazi German is a pretty short sighed and ill-considered conclusion. Gitmo and the Patriot Act are problematic, but problematic does not a Nazi regime make.

Well, it's not all doom and gloom for him - on the upside, he'll get to have sex with Carrie Mathison.

 Ahtman wrote:

Even so, everyone thinks their crappy comparison is relevant, just as I imagine you think your crappy comparison is relevant, but that doesn't make it so. Comparing the US to Nazi German is a pretty short sighed and ill-considered conclusion. Gitmo and the Patriot Act are problematic, but problematic does not a Nazi regime make.

Because Germany didn't wake up one morning and embrace a totalitarian regime and start feeding innocent people into a gas chamber.

Look at what happened to Germany. When you see the same pattern of things coached in the same language happening here, it should set warning bells to ringing.

Don't worry about it, we just need a little more power to protect you is all. Just a little more!

*shakes head*

When they start talking about how you don't need rights, any right, or that your rights really aren't rights at all, or don't apply to the common person, or certain people or groups of people, then those men need to be removed from power as quickly as possible, before they can get the ball rolling. To say 'You can't compare (Country X) to Nazi Germany' is to bury your head in the sand and hope nothing bad happens. I compare every country to Nazi Germany and try to determine how that particular evolution of politics can be headed off.

The founding fathers knew this. Why do you think that the military swears their oath to the Constitution and not the President of the United States?

The price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance.

They're Chechen...to young to get involve in any fighting with the russians. Mother borought them to the States Refugee status from Kazakastan. Brother attacks us as we were the colosestr for them to vent.Decade ago....so olde brother would have been 16..pretty sure he had military training....younger brother we're looking at 6. No way. Older brother influence younger brother.. See how theypicked up the pressure cooker for the det, Wondering where the hell they recieved military grade explosives to usel. Its scarey that the ENEMY has an establish logistic line in the the USA.

 Ouze wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Well, so much for a trial by Jury. The suspect will not be given Miranda.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/no-miranda-rights-for-now-for-bombing-suspect-90362.html?hp=f1

I guess that gov feels it has a weak case then. We'll go directly to military interrogations.

I don't think that's appropriate. He's an American citizen*. He should be read his rights, given a fair trial, and then when found guilty, spend the rest of his life in prison with pedophiles, rapists. and murderers. We need to stop treating these guys like they're something special: they aren't. They aren't holy warriors, they aren't martyrs of Islam - they're just spree murderers and not any more special than Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein or whomever.

*This is presuming they don't find he is working as the agent of a foreign power, which is not yet in evidence either way

He is? I'd only heard he was a legal resident.

Well, the news is pretty damn unreliable right now, but according to CNN the surviving suspect was a naturalized citizen as of 2012.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

Even so, everyone thinks their crappy comparison is relevant, just as I imagine you think your crappy comparison is relevant, but that doesn't make it so. Comparing the US to Nazi German is a pretty short sighed and ill-considered conclusion. Gitmo and the Patriot Act are problematic, but problematic does not a Nazi regime make.

Paranoid Slippery Slope Snip

The problem with that argument is that it essentially says that all legislation leads to Nazism, and is one of the reasons for Godwin. You might as well say that the ratification of The Constitution was the first step toward Nazism, as per any Slipper Slope argument.

 Ouze wrote:
Well, the news is pretty damn unreliable right now, but according to CNN the surviving suspect was a naturalized citizen as of 2012.

Sweet. And their uncle, according to some reports, says they're not Chechen, so we can please everybody and go back to the, "crazy white right-wing American militia," theory.

 Seaward wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Well, the news is pretty damn unreliable right now, but according to CNN the surviving suspect was a naturalized citizen as of 2012.

Sweet. And their uncle, according to some reports, says they're not Chechen, so we can please everybody and go back to the, "crazy white right-wing American militia," theory.

But Uncle Myxlplyx sounds just like Pasha D. Lychnikoff from the latest Die Hard movie.

IMO the reason the uncle gave on TV was correct -- they were losers who never found a stable place in society and ended up hating people who did. (Paraphrased a bit.)

However until they can explain their motivation we are all guessing at it. It's much nicer to think that people commit this kind of crime because they are agents of a foreign power, or a deep conspiracy.