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I am very curious as the the motivations of, as FARK dubbed him, "Brosama bin Laden".

 Kilkrazy wrote:
IMO the reason the uncle gave on TV was correct -- they were losers who never found a stable place in society and ended up hating people who did. (Paraphrased a bit.)

However until they can explain their motivation we are all guessing at it. It's much nicer to think that people commit this kind of crime because they are agents of a foreign power, or a deep conspiracy.

Combined with the small bio from the boxing thing on one of them, and that really looks like the motivation. They felt like outsiders, resented the people they couldn't relate to, throw in some pseudo-Islamic ideology they seem to have picked up somewhere and you've got morality-based contempt for them too. It all adds up to a pretty dangerous mix. I'd hazard to guess they were also chronically stressed out or miserable, as that tends to create nihilistic impulses and spiked aggression. The first gives them a target and internal validation, the second gives them the desire for violence.

The life expectancy for this guy in the GP of a Federal slammer is probably measured in minutes. Especially if he ends up in Leavenworth.

So while the question of civilian or military courts is up in the air, what does dakka think? Personally unless it gets revealed these idiots were North Korean secret agents by way of Eastern Europe I think we should throw'em to the civilian courts, I also don't think it's a question if this is going to end up being in Federal courts or not. It's federal. It's a terrorism case, there's no WAY Boston or even Massachusetts gets to keep this one, DOJ's DAs can smell blood in the water and are already circling.

It's great that he's been taken alive, now keep him alive to face trial and pick apart whatever idealology he's following. I think if he'd died, it would become mostly guessing, and his motives would become a whatever bogeyman someone wanted when making a political point. He'd be a Muslim one day, a right wing nutter the next.

My feeling, looking at some things already described is that there was little more than hate behind this. It's going to be dissatisfactory and scary to those already hoping/claiming he must be a Muslim, because maybe they were just hateful nutters randomly lashing out at the world, not people following a pattern or having any allegiance.

I think, unless they determine - and I'm snickering here - that they are Soviet sleeper agents - then it's pretty clearly a civilian matter, and probably a federal one. Of course, I believe in following the constitution, even when it's inconvenient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I It's going to be dissatisfactory and scary to those already hoping/claiming he must be a Muslim, because maybe they were just hateful nutters randomly lashing out at the world, not people following a pattern or having any allegiance.

I concur that the "free-range school shooter" theory is also quite plausible.

 Slarg232 wrote:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/20/17823265-we-got-him-boston-bombing-suspect-captured-alive?lite

Despite the fact that Martial Law was called for Boston during the five day search, with police going door to door and searching houses. Seriously, what the heck?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they caught the guy, but Martial Law, for a Suspected bomber just doesn't sit well with me. Tell me I'm crazy please.

Errr... they didn't lock the city down till yesterday, and that was when these fethheads had a running gun battle with police and started lobbing IEDs/assorted explosives like Santa Clause lobbing out presents on Christmas Eve. Martial law is a scary, scary thing and not to be taken lightly, it's my personal opinion that locking down Boston to crush this guy's mobility, the cordoning off the area they know he's in, then going house to house to A. check for explosives, B. ensure the safety of the public at large and C. tighten the noose on this S.O.B was the exact right thing to do. Not like the Boston PD was kicking in doors either.

Edit: as to my own question, this is a kinda gray area of law still, is a terrorist a combatant or a criminal? Do they receive a military court martial? Or do we hang them via civilian courts?

Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

I don't consider that a mercy in this case. Assuming there is a conviction this kid will spend 70 years in iso. What a pity.

Doesn't matter if MA doesn't have the death penalty. Federal case, and they still erect the gallows.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Doesn't matter if MA doesn't have the death penalty. Federal case, and they still erect the gallows.

So what will he found guilty of?
A. High Treason
B. Terrorism
C. Robbery
D. Murder of Government Servants
E. Else.......

Even if Obama grant his mercy, to spare him from the death sentences. Bostonians and MA folks will lynch him at the moment he left the prison.
At the moment the police declared the suspects were caught, everyone in boston chants USA! USA! USA! for hours! at that moment, the world has turned against him.... well except some megalomaniacs living elsewhere who still holds anti-colonialism mindset (and wants to whack the entire Union) would chants his name, and plot yet another cabal.

 Orlanth wrote:
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

I don't consider that a mercy in this case. Assuming there is a conviction this kid will spend 70 years in iso. What a pity.

Yes, what he did was a shocking crime, but I would guess (and it's only a guess) from what I've read about them, that his older brother led him down this path. It seemed like he had the brighter future of the two and now it's gone. If guilty, he has to pay the price though, no arguments there.

A cop-killing terrorist has been caught at last. The only mercy he should receive is death - either by the state (preferably), but if he fails, I will not judge any citizen doing the job.

 Lone Cat wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Doesn't matter if MA doesn't have the death penalty. Federal case, and they still erect the gallows.

So what will he found guilty of?
A. High Treason
B. Terrorism
C. Robbery
D. Murder of Government Servants
E. Else.......

Even if Obama grant his mercy, to spare him from the death sentences. Bostonians and MA folks will lynch him at the moment he left the prison.
At the moment the police declared the suspects were caught, everyone in boston chants USA! USA! USA! for hours! at that moment, the world has turned against him.... well except some megalomaniacs living elsewhere who still holds anti-colonialism mindset (and wants to whack the entire Union) would chants his name, and plot yet another cabal.

It's a long list actually, conspiracy, terrorism, multiple counts of 1st degree murder, attempted murder, assaulting police officers, conspiracy to violate U.S. weapons laws, possibly possession of explosives, treason's certainly a possibility if they had friends on the outside, then there's the small stuff with two counts of armed robbery, grand theft auto, I mean the sheer amount of carnage and havoc these guys caused... it's gonna take a dedicated TEAM of prosecutors a significant amount of time to come out with all the charges.

As to the lynching, well... he doesn't have to worry about that. No matter how this trial goes, ol'boy is never going to walk out of a U.S. prison alive. He will either be executed, or he will die in prison. Either by age or courtesy of the other inmates. When you get life in prison in the United States. They mean it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flashman wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

I don't consider that a mercy in this case. Assuming there is a conviction this kid will spend 70 years in iso. What a pity.

Yes, what he did was a shocking crime, but I would guess (and it's only a guess) from what I've read about them, that his older brother led him down this path. It seemed like he had the brighter future of the two and now it's gone. If guilty, he has to pay the price though, no arguments there.

Seems a reasonable conclusion based on the information we have at this time Flashhear... err Flashman.

Will this fellow have access to a solicitor? And be guaranteed a fair trial?

Having read through this thread, I'm not convinced he's going to receive either of those things. And that worries me, to be frank. There's always another bomb nutter round the corner every few years, but the mark of a free democracy to me is that the Government don't just have the power to make your rights go away.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Doesn't matter if MA doesn't have the death penalty. Federal case, and they still erect the gallows.

So what will he found guilty of?
A. High Treason
B. Terrorism
C. Robbery
D. Murder of Government Servants
E. Else.......

Even if Obama grant his mercy, to spare him from the death sentences. Bostonians and MA folks will lynch him at the moment he left the prison.
At the moment the police declared the suspects were caught, everyone in boston chants USA! USA! USA! for hours! at that moment, the world has turned against him.... well except some megalomaniacs living elsewhere who still holds anti-colonialism mindset (and wants to whack the entire Union) would chants his name, and plot yet another cabal.

It's a long list actually, conspiracy, terrorism, multiple counts of 1st degree murder, attempted murder, assaulting police officers, conspiracy to violate U.S. weapons laws, possibly possession of explosives, treason's certainly a possibility if they had friends on the outside, then there's the small stuff with two counts of armed robbery, grand theft auto, I mean the sheer amount of carnage and havoc these guys caused... it's gonna take a dedicated TEAM of prosecutors a significant amount of time to come out with all the charges.

As to the lynching, well... he doesn't have to worry about that. No matter how this trial goes, ol'boy is never going to walk out of a U.S. prison alive. He will either be executed, or he will die in prison. Either by age or courtesy of the other inmates. When you get life in prison in the United States. They mean it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flashman wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

I don't consider that a mercy in this case. Assuming there is a conviction this kid will spend 70 years in iso. What a pity.

Yes, what he did was a shocking crime, but I would guess (and it's only a guess) from what I've read about them, that his older brother led him down this path. It seemed like he had the brighter future of the two and now it's gone. If guilty, he has to pay the price though, no arguments there.

Seems a reasonable conclusion based on the information we have at this time Flashhear... err Flashman.

So the President of the USA has no power to free or grant leniency to any convicts. right?
Leaders of several smaller nations were granted power to provide leniency and at on the birthday of each ruling ones, they might issued leniency, several times, many convicts bound to the death rows ended up only some decades in prison and later freed. Those who got life later got the freedom this way.

Especially in Thailand, there were numbers of dangerous bandits (non-political ones, yes usually gangsters too!) who were originally sentenced to death, but later got their freedom in less than 8 years. I know this ain't gonna happen in the US (unless the 'video game' incidents seen in either Assassin Creed or Mafia II happened in life), What do you think of leniency. Will it eventually ruins soceity as unrepentants roam free and honest folks (especially those who responsible of the incacerations) will be preyed upon?

 Ketara wrote:
Will this fellow have access to a solicitor? And be guaranteed a fair trial?

No reason to believe he will not at this point; let's not get ahead of ourselves in assumptions just yet.

Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

But the only reason he was found was because they lifted the "stay inside" request and somebody went outside, saw blood, and called 911.

 Ketara wrote:
Will this fellow have access to a solicitor? And be guaranteed a fair trial?

Having read through this thread, I'm not convinced he's going to receive either of those things. And that worries me, to be frank. There's always another bomb nutter round the corner every few years, but the mark of a free democracy to me is that the Government don't just have the power to make your rights go away.

From my limited understanding of the US 'safety of civilians' act thingy, the police/feds will have roughly 48 hours or so to question this guy without mirandising him and having a defense lawyer present. After that, they have to follow civilan law and remind him of his rights to keep his trap shut and have council present.
The US doesn't want this turning into some three-ring enemy combatent military style circus. It only feeds the nutters and helps them rationalise their motives as being 'freedom fighters' taking on a morally corrupt and evil state that's imposing foriegn values onto Muslims/'insert any random group here'.

A fair civilan trial keeps the US looking both respectable and still firmly dedicated to its ideals of democracy and freedom of choice/rights for all.

 Ketara wrote:
Will this fellow have access to a solicitor? And be guaranteed a fair trial?

Having read through this thread, I'm not convinced he's going to receive either of those things. And that worries me, to be frank. There's always another bomb nutter round the corner every few years, but the mark of a free democracy to me is that the Government don't just have the power to make your rights go away.

He was taken alive, he will. This is the US. Not China.

While I don't agree with the public safety exception, my guess is that it was used because of the thread of secondary devices still out there and to try to find coconspirators on the run.

I don't think he will end up with a black bag on his head as he disappears in our military terrorist prisons.

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

For some reason this incident makes me think of the turn of the century Anarchist bombings.

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

Well, the National Guard was involved. There were Blackhawks, and Hummers out there. But most likely it was under the oversite of the Governer, not the President. Especially since it would be illegal for the President to order them to do so under Posse Comitatus.

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

I might agree to call it martial law if the police and national guard are patrolling the streets, enforcing a lockdown order, and shoot/arrest anybody who dares to leave their house.

"A yellow coded curfew is now in effect. This is for your protection..."

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Will this fellow have access to a solicitor? And be guaranteed a fair trial?

Having read through this thread, I'm not convinced he's going to receive either of those things. And that worries me, to be frank. There's always another bomb nutter round the corner every few years, but the mark of a free democracy to me is that the Government don't just have the power to make your rights go away.

From my limited understanding of the US 'safety of civilians' act thingy, the police/feds will have roughly 48 hours or so to question this guy without mirandising him and having a defense lawyer present. After that, they have to follow civilan law and remind him of his rights to keep his trap shut and have council present.
The US doesn't want this turning into some three-ring enemy combatent military style circus. It only feeds the nutters and helps them rationalise their motives as being 'freedom fighters' taking on a morally corrupt and evil state that's imposing foriegn values onto Muslims/'insert any random group here'.

A fair civilan trial keeps the US looking both respectable and still firmly dedicated to its ideals of democracy and freedom of choice/rights for all.

The feds will also be very limited in what they can ask during the questioning before he is lawyered up.
And lets be honest. Do you think there are a lot of 19 year olds in the US that DON'T understand basic Miranda rights from TV/movies? Just because some cop does not pull out a card and read it to him does not mean he doesn't have a decent grasp of his rights...

 djones520 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

Well, the National Guard was involved. There were Blackhawks, and Hummers out there. But most likely it was under the oversite of the Governer, not the President. Especially since it would be illegal for the President to order them to do so under Posse Comitatus.

On the positive side, it was really something to see the level of effective and efficient co-operation between Boston Police, Watertown PD, (and every other nearby township's PD for that matter!), State Police, Military Police, FBI, ATF...

I mean, when you consider the logistics of organising a manhunt for known dangerous offender in an urban setting utilising over 9000 officers!

 djones520 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

Well, the National Guard was involved. There were Blackhawks, and Hummers out there. But most likely it was under the oversite of the Governer, not the President. Especially since it would be illegal for the President to order them to do so under Posse Comitatus.

Not entirely accurate. Federal troops (even federalized NG) can provide all kinds of logistic support to include uparmored hummers for transportation in an IED possible environment, EOD teams and such to LE, they just cannot act in an LE capacity (make arrests).

 CptJake wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Interesting fact: police urged everyone to stay inside so that they could find him (I'm not going to get caught up in the mass hysteria and call it martial law).

It also doesn't make sense to call it martial law since the cops aren't the military; Martial Law doesn't mean the State and local authorities ask people to stay indoors. As far as I can tell this is just, even at worst, a case of, you know, law. I haven't seen pics of hummers rolling through the streets or IFVs parked on the sidewalks.

Well, the National Guard was involved. There were Blackhawks, and Hummers out there. But most likely it was under the oversite of the Governer, not the President. Especially since it would be illegal for the President to order them to do so under Posse Comitatus.

Not entirely accurate. Federal troops (even federalized NG) can provide all kinds of logistic support to include uparmored hummers for transportation in an IED possible environment, EOD teams and such to LE, they just cannot act in an LE capacity (make arrests).

The Blackhawks were being used to search for the suspect. Troops were on the ground as well searching from stories I've read. They had to be there under the Governer's orders.

Martial Law isn't using NG assets or Military advisers; helping out in a support role isn't the same thing as taking over. I would imagine they made up a very small percentage of the overall force involved in the manhunt.

 Ahtman wrote:
Martial Law isn't using NG assets or Military advisers; helping out in a support role isn't the same thing as taking over. I would imagine they made up a very small percentage of the overall force involved in the manhunt.

Not arguing they are. Was just pointing out they were there. If there was Martial Law, then they wouldn't have let people "go about their business" while the man was still loose, like they did at 1730.

 Ahtman wrote:

The problem with that argument is that it essentially says that all legislation leads to Nazism, and is one of the reasons for Godwin. You might as well say that the ratification of The Constitution was the first step toward Nazism, as per any Slipper Slope argument.

Nice strawman, there. Too bad it doesn't even begin to resemble what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that when people start talking about taking your rights away, regardless of their reasoning perhaps you should show them the door. Particularly if they start using the 'You are under attack and we need to take away your rights to protect you' since that was the angle the Nazis played, and it's the same angle the US government is playing now when they claim that 'enemy combatants' have no rights, regardless of them being US citizens or not.

You can claim it's a slippery slope argument, but taking away the public's rights is a key step on the road to any totalitarian regime. The Nazis just took the time to record what they did, which makes the comparison easier.

Godwin exists to reduce hyperbola re comparing unrelated subjects to Nazism. Check Wikipedia. Or ask Godwin yourself if you care to take the time.

The blackhawks were fed birds, but not DoD from my understanding. Even if DoD, not a big deal, they were not gonna arrest anyone from a chopper. NG troops can search and man security posts all day either under the Gov's orders or after having been federalized (and I don't think these guys were), BUT they would need a LEO along to arrest...