Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Ahtman wrote: To be fair, right wing extremists aren't the same as right wing, though it doesn't help when non-partisan, non-political entities talk about the rise of right wing radicals and the non-radical right wing seems that they are talking about them.
Well, it's not much different than the vast majority of Muslims who have to suffer because people stick them in the same group as the radicalized jihadists.
It is different in that you don't have a bunch of Muslim Congressmen condemning the reports and making it seem more like a political attack, and thus pretending there is no problem.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I agree, though. It is hard to conceive of the motive for the police to set off bombs at the marathon and then pretend to capture the people allegedly responsible.
I doubt that's the case as well. My main concern is that we've fixated on just two possible suspects this entire time who have provided a spectacular show for everyone to watch, with lots of people absolutely convinced that they're guilty as sin. God Help the FBI if they got it wrong.
The only real facepalm worthy thing is you thinking its probable for someone who is completely innocent to see their face on the news connected to a bomb plot and react by making bombs and having a shootout with the police.
Again, it makes perfect sense if you assume the police are not going to bother arresting you. Remember that one of the things they said in interviews was that they really still did not understand Americans. Frankly, if they assumed, in a panic, that the American police would do the same as the Russian police would, then any attempt to turn themselves in would be an automatic death sentence, guilty or no.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 20:14:59
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Well, one, how do you know they were ready made and not, say, produced after seeing their faces all over the news? Two, it's always best to confirm a target with your own eyes before pushing the plunger. I recommend you hold the bomb tight in your hand when you do it.
The only real facepalm worthy thing is you thinking its probable for someone who is completely innocent to see their face on the news connected to a bomb plot and react by making bombs and having a shootout with the police.
Its as crazy of an idea as saying they would have reacted by going out and tap dancing in the middle of the street while juggling squirrels dressed as the Ghost of Christmas past.
The only conceivable reason I could see someone reacting like this is if they were either guilty of the crime they stand accused of OR they were already planning on committing an act of terror with bombs and there just happened to be a bizarre coincidence of someone else with the same idea hitting the marathon.
If it turns out that they really were completely innocent and on the spur of the moment manufactured these pipe bombs and had a shootout just because then I'll convert my entire GK army into Chaos GKs.
Get out that greenstuff and start making spikes, because as I said earlier, I know of three different families who are nutter enough to do exactly this, despite that they are innocent currently of any actual crimes. Although a lot of the "The gubbiment is gonna take muh rights!" rhetoric is blown smoke from talking heads, there are some crazies out there (I had the very, very unfortunate mistake of rooming with one family in particular) who would start cutting the PVC to length and measuring their powder as soon as the first report with their name on it popped up on NPR or Drudge Report and gathering seeds to start their own compound off in the forest somewhere after breaking through the police line.
They are admittedly in the minority of most citizens, but I don't find it completely unbelievable that the accused bombers could have been of a similarly unhinged mindset. Unlikely? Probably, but certainly not impossible.
Imagine the feeling when you position your tanks, engines idling, landing gear deployed for a low profile, with firing solutions along a key bottleneck. Then some fether lands a dreadnought behind them in a giant heat shielded coke can.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Talking about these guys in particular.
Nutters that would do exactly that tend to not live in cities. And I don't think they'd go actively looking for trouble but would rather sit in their house fortress and wait for the cops to come to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 20:45:38
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Nutters that would do exactly that tend to not live in cities. And I don't think they'd go actively looking for trouble but would rather sit in their house fortress and wait for the cops to come to them.
Yes, but we don't live in stereotypeland, so yes, you have right wing nuts with guns and explosives in the City just like you have leftist pinko commies in the Countryside.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 21:00:56
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Nutters that would do exactly that tend to not live in cities.
Source?
Because one of the other nutter families I know of that I spoke of earlier lives in a residential district basically identical in population density to the ones the cops had the shootout in.
Grey Templar wrote: And I don't think they'd go actively looking for trouble but would rather sit in their house fortress and wait for the cops to come to them.
That's exactly what they did. Police didn't find them hiding in a random neighborhood where the shootout began; they tracked them to their house, and that's where the shootout and impromptu pipebombs explosions occurred. It wasn't until after this and after the younger suspect fled that the carjacking (And surviving victim of said carjacking, let's not forget) and chase occurred.
There's every bit of evidence right now that they appear to have had a shootout and subsequent Die Hard-worthy chase scene afterwards. However, currently the direct evidence linking them to the Marathon bombings right now was:
1) Their presence at one of if not the largest public events in Boston, if not the entire state of Massachusetts.
2) The testimony of a drugged-out-of-his-mind double-amputee victim
3) The presence of a piece of common cookware such as found in doubtless thousands of other homes and used in the bombing present in his home.
Other than that, there are no direct connections I've seen or heard evidence for connecting them to the bombings at the Marathon itself. Everything else of their actionswith the police points to dime-a-dozen survivalist whackjob.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 21:00:56
Imagine the feeling when you position your tanks, engines idling, landing gear deployed for a low profile, with firing solutions along a key bottleneck. Then some fether lands a dreadnought behind them in a giant heat shielded coke can.
No, from reading your posts it seems as though your point has been to more to post conspiracy theories rather than keep an objective mind to the facts.
Well, one, how do you know they were ready made and not, say, produced after seeing their faces all over the news? Two, it's always best to confirm a target with your own eyes before pushing the plunger. I recommend you hold the bomb tight in your hand when you do it.
You clearly missed the joke at the end, I thought that the gave it away
Time frame wise is it reasonable to say that they had enough time to make multiple explosive devices (assuming that they had all the materials to hand and the pipes at the right length etc.) as well as having the technical expertise to make them in a hurry, or is it more likely that they had these devices waiting? After all it was your claim that the suspects were panicked and not thinking clearly enough to consider surrender, and now you're saying that they had the foresight to build bombs instead.
BaronIveagh wrote: Yes, but in this case guilty people (at least ones with brain one) would have skipped town long before they were identified. They most definitely would have prepared a vehicle or means of escape in advance as well, rather than resort to a carjacking and stealing from the guy's ATM, which screams 'impromptu' to me. That and the fact they let him go. I'd have shot him to prevent him from running to call the police and report the vehicle stolen, buying me some time.
No, from reading your posts it seems as though your point has been to more to post conspiracy theories rather than keep an objective mind to the facts.
Please site one conspiracy theory I've posted. Other than my suggestion that Putin was morally capable of ordering such an act if he thought he had something to gain.
Time frame wise is it reasonable to say that they had enough time to make multiple explosive devices (assuming that they had all the materials to hand and the pipes at the right length etc.) as well as having the technical expertise to make them in a hurry, or is it more likely that they had these devices waiting? After all it was your claim that the suspects were panicked and not thinking clearly enough to consider surrender, and now you're saying that they had the foresight to build bombs instead.
Since I don't know how big they were, or what quantity of explosive they contained, or how many were expended, I can't say for sure, but it sounds like about 20 min work, a little longer if they screwed up the first few. As I pointed out to Fraz, you can buy ten pounds of explosives legally, in a lot of places, over the counter. Wal Mart carries them around here.
True, but in this case the 'impromptu' part screams 'amateur'. If you put thought into an attack, and it's not a suicide attack, then most people would put the same amount of thought into their exit strategy, because even if you're going to carry out more attacks, you need to have a plan to get away from the initial attack and you have to assume that you will be ID'd. If these are our guys, they put near zero thought into even evading capture long enough to set up their next attack.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Exit strategies tend to be what most criminals neglect, even so called professionals can have sub-par get away plans. That's for all crimes and terrorism is little different in that regard. Its not unreasonable to expect them to not have a good getaway plan even if they were planning on a long lasting campaign of terror.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Just wanted to say it was touching to see all the support for Boston at the London marathon today. Lots of Boston finishers shirts, and 37,000 black ribbons.
Glad to know the marathon community is not one to be cowed by terrorists.
Grey Templar wrote: Exit strategies tend to be what most criminals neglect, even so called professionals can have sub-par get away plans. That's for all crimes and terrorism is little different in that regard. Its not unreasonable to expect them to not have a good getaway plan even if they were planning on a long lasting campaign of terror.
Eh. I can't argue that some people don't have sub par exit plans, but these guys had apparently none at all. For being the worst domestic bombing since 9/11, it's the sort of quality one would expect from two drunks with an afternoon off to put together a bomb plot and build the devices.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I wouldn't say anyone who does something like this is the most intelligent individual.
Bombing the Marathon didn't advance whatever cause they were adhering to, its just directionless violence that doesn't really accomplish anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 22:33:29
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Exit strategies tend to be what most criminals neglect, even so called professionals can have sub-par get away plans. That's for all crimes and terrorism is little different in that regard. Its not unreasonable to expect them to not have a good getaway plan even if they were planning on a long lasting campaign of terror.
Eh. I can't argue that some people don't have sub par exit plans, but these guys had apparently none at all. For being the worst domestic bombing since 9/11, it's the sort of quality one would expect from two drunks with an afternoon off to put together a bomb plot and build the devices.
Well considering the FBI and CIA are saying that these guys had sophisticated training, and support, and have since made several arrests of suspected members of their cell, I'd say your guesstimations on all of this are a bit off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 22:36:57
Grey Templar wrote: Exit strategies tend to be what most criminals neglect, even so called professionals can have sub-par get away plans. That's for all crimes and terrorism is little different in that regard. Its not unreasonable to expect them to not have a good getaway plan even if they were planning on a long lasting campaign of terror.
Eh. I can't argue that some people don't have sub par exit plans, but these guys had apparently none at all. For being the worst domestic bombing since 9/11, it's the sort of quality one would expect from two drunks with an afternoon off to put together a bomb plot and build the devices.
Well considering the FBI and CIA are saying that these guys had sophisticated training, and support, and have since made several arrests of suspected members of their cell, I'd say your guesstimations on all of this are a bit off.
Which makes it even more strange that they had no cohesive exit strategy. If they hadn't planned on escaping at all, why did they opt for bombs they could fire off and survive, instead of using suicide vests or remaining near their bombs?
Imagine the feeling when you position your tanks, engines idling, landing gear deployed for a low profile, with firing solutions along a key bottleneck. Then some fether lands a dreadnought behind them in a giant heat shielded coke can.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its also possible they weren't prepared to get identified so quickly and were unable to get away. Of course this isn't consistent with their bragging to the carjacking victim.
My guess is that they were just a couple of small timer terrorists with delusions of grandeur that got some training somewhere but that training didn't include how to get away with it. So they really had no idea how to actually get away with it, and so they got caught.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Maybe their plan was exactly how it turned out? Wait until they were ID'd and go out in a blaze of glory? The folks who do this type of stuff aren't generally concerned with "exit strategies".
Especially if they have martyrdom thing going on, going down in a blaze of glory might be their thing As much as some bloodthirsty people are wishing the one arrested was shot, and now want him tortured, executed or whatever, that might be counterproductive.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
There's plenty of ways to make him suffer without making a martyr out of him. Send him prison, either solitary or the tender mercies of the other inmates.
Bury him in the prison system, let him rot. Either way, its not going to be the death of glory he wants.
Not even the Death Penalty would be glorious. It'd be 20+ years of rotting on death row before finally getting the needle the way our system works, then he'd just get a day of coverage and then we'd forget about him. just another crazy in the dustbin of history.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Its also possible they weren't prepared to get identified so quickly and were unable to get away. Of course this isn't consistent with their bragging to the carjacking victim.
My guess is that they were just a couple of small timer terrorists with delusions of grandeur that got some training somewhere but that training didn't include how to get away with it. So they really had no idea how to actually get away with it, and so they got caught.
If there were other attacks planned as investigators believe could be a possibility, then these two morons were likely not thinking about escaping anytime soon.
Of corse, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would realise that bombing a huge event like the Boston Marathon would lead to every single resource at the Fed's disposal being used to track down the culprits ASAP!
Between how many analyists and how many thousands of hours of video survielance AND private cellphone/video recording device & photos that the public handed into investigators, it was stupidity at it's finest to think they weren't going to be caught on at least a half dozen plus recordings.
Also, we have no idea just how much physical evidence has actually been collected and processed by FBI, ATF & Boston forensic teams. While a few photos of some of the bomb fragments and the suspect photos were released, the investigative team could very likely have other things like extended video footage showing the boys planting their bags at the confirmed detonation sites, fingerprints, internet findings linking them to how-to bomb-making, etc... and who knows what else that they simply won't release to the press in order to protect vital evidance for use at trial.
On a related note, it now appears that the Fed's won't be questioning the younger brother anytime soon, since he apparently has a serious throat injury which is preventing him from physically speaking. (damnit!)
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Woah, was he shot in the neck?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Well considering the FBI and CIA are saying that these guys had sophisticated training, and support, and have since made several arrests of suspected members of their cell, I'd say your guesstimations on all of this are a bit off.
From what I've read, everyone they have brought in so far, they released. The older brother's trip to Dagestan is filled with a lot of 'we thinks' and 'possibles' because they have no idea.
Though if you have a link to new information, feel free to post it.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
The only one I can think of that might have possible military training was the older brother who was 26. Which seems about right for some sort of BASIC training in the area where their from before they were granted refugee status to the US. I'm curious though where they recieve the info on how they made their "Frags" which were pretty effective on the vehicle chase.
As for the "date" of the attack being it coincided wit the Battle of Lexington and the "Shot heard around the world" bit. I highly doubt that the attack was planned around that. I highly doubt most americans remember the date of the start of the Revolution. Two idioits knew the date of the Marathon and how many people were going to be there because they lived in the area.
As for DeNazt'ing. Google "List denaturralized former citizens of the United States" Its a DoJ run list.
I'm bit happy we're going down a different chain of thought. I was tired of reading the "Martial Law" comments. Granted a few of us have seen what "Martial Law" is when its in effect.
National Guard troops fall under the State they're from. The Blackhawks were from a National Guard unit even though they were funded for the state from the Federal gov't. The Federal Gov't provides the equipment and the training but its the state responsibility to maintain the equipment using state funds.
As for the escape route the two idioits failed to do. I strongly believed they were thinking they would not have been caught due to the amount of people that were in the area. That tells you off the bat how many people were looking at everything that was pouring in from cell phones pics and vids, to video camera in the area, and the news team that were there for the story.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well as long as he's still alive he can write out his answers to questions once he recovers.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
As for DeNazt'ing. Google "List denaturralized former citizens of the United States" Its a DoJ run list.
It should be noted how few of those are for terrorism. (and how many were voluntary or part of plea deals to avoid deportation for war crimes) And, I'll be blunt, should probably be a step not taken as it would only pour fuel on the fire for people screaming 'conspiracy'.
This needs to be done in the open. I'm tired of hearing how putting terrorists in prisons in the US would be too risky for the public, but we can keep serial killers and mass murderers who like the taste of human flesh without issue.
Jihadin wrote: As for DeNazt'ing. Google "List denaturralized former citizens of the United States" Its a DoJ run list.
You're right - I stand corrected. While we did establish in one of the Anwar threads a way back that it's nearly impossible to remove citizenship from an unwilling citizen, it looks like it's a lot more flexible for a naturalized citizen. I learned something fascinating today.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
A Massachusetts police official say the brothers suspected of bombing the Boston Marathon before having shootouts with authorities didn't have gun permits.
Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas tells The Associated Press in an interview Sunday that neither Tamerlan Tsarnaev (tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) nor his brother Dzhokhar had permission to carry firearms.
He says it's unclear whether either ever applied and the applications aren't considered public records.
But he says the 19-year-old Dzhokhar (joh-KHAR') would have been denied a permit because of his age. Only people 21 or older are allowed gun licenses in Massachusetts.
The suspects were also accused of hijacking a Mercedes on Thursday night.
Haas says the pair didn't release the driver, but he escaped when he was left alone while the two men entered a convenience store.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
gave it away
