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Hello fellow dakkanaughts!

Last night I played against one of my buddies at the local club with my IG/CSM list. Been playing IG fairly steadily for several months now and am pretty happy with that part of my list with the exception of the lack of cc ability. Normally what happens is my opponent gets past the ADL and all of my infantry squads die (eventually). To fix that I thought I'd ally with CSM and pick up a mualerfied and a Daemon Prince (and other CSM things but that's for another post). I've never played either model and wasn't up to snuff on either so needless to say they didn't really do anything other than die (and draw fire). I made some tactical errors with both of them and I'm unsure about the best way to kit out the daemon prince - hence this posting.

I gave my daemon prince power armor, wings, mastery level 1, daemon of nurgle, and ichor blood. I rolled on the biomancy table hoping for iron arm and ended up with the virus power. Oh well. Anyway I'd like to hear people's suggestions on how to best kit out an allied daemon prince for combat. Also, if there are some tactics I should be aware of that works best with them. One thing I was unaware of was the jink role value a DP can take. I thought it was the standard 5+ but a buddy of mine in passing said it was something else (lower - but I forget now).

For CSM you have to roll half their powers on their marked gods table, so ML1 you will only be rolling on the nurgle table in your example. Black mace is usually the weapon of choice as you are always ap2 and the toughness test (espically when combined with enfeebale) is good against lower T armies.

Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Armor, and the Black Mace, is the most effective loadout. The inability to sweep on the Nurgle Prince is a hefty Drawback.

Am I wasting points on making him a level one psyker?

 necron99 wrote:
Am I wasting points on making him a level one psyker?

I would say so, since the CSM lores are really not that good.

MarkyMark wrote:
For CSM you have to roll half their powers on their marked gods table, so ML1 you will only be rolling on the nurgle table in your example. Black mace is usually the weapon of choice as you are always ap2 and the toughness test (espically when combined with enfeebale) is good against lower T armies.

I just looked up the black mace. It's pricey but wow...can it do some harm. I think it's ap4 though...

Not on a DP. All a DP's cc attacks are ap2 IIRC - no matter what they are hitting you with.

 necron99 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
For CSM you have to roll half their powers on their marked gods table, so ML1 you will only be rolling on the nurgle table in your example. Black mace is usually the weapon of choice as you are always ap2 and the toughness test (espically when combined with enfeebale) is good against lower T armies.

I just looked up the black mace. It's pricey but wow...can it do some harm. I think it's ap4 though...

Funny though, a MC always attacks at AP 2 because of Smash. Even though the Black Mace is AP 4, the ap is overidden by the smash rule for MC.

As stated above, as long as you are doing smash attacks (Which you should be doing since you have a Daemon Weapon which adds it's bonus attacks AFTER you half your base attacks)

The Black Mace becomes AP2

You don't have to smash to get AP2. Your normal attacks regardless of weapon you're using are at AP2.

You only smash against vehicles and to ID things.

It is not just performing a smash attack, it is all attacks as long as the model has the smash USR

 necron99 wrote:
Am I wasting points on making him a level one psyker?

lvl1 yes, go for lvl 3, so that you get 2 rolls on biomancy, also drop the ichor of blood or w/e.

By being a daemon of nurgle your jink was of 3+, due to the specil rule conferred by being aligned to nurgle.

As mentioned above the best and more expensive configuration is

Daemon of Tzeentch, Power Armor, Wings, Psy lvl 3, Black Mace, Spell Familiar.

The spell Familiar is really only if you have the extra points, but if you do you should always get him, the DP is a really expensive model that cannot afford to lose 1 wound to perils of the warp or if he gets Iron Arm/Endurance miss the cast.

I just can't stomach the lvl 3 psyker + familiar cost...

Ok, so let's see if I've got this right. I've got a model that can move up to 24" (flat out move included) and get a 4+ jink save and normally will hit first getting between 5-9 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge ignoring most FNP and probably causing ID with some additional goodies if someone survives?

Using the 300+ point DP is more of an art than people think; At the end of the day it's still only a 4 wound model with a 3+ 5++ and T5-8.

You will fail saves at some point, and you can die to small arms.

You wreck things in CC, but challenges can tie you up and neutralise your effectiveness (you can't refuse).

It should be used in conjunction with other offensive arms; don't expect it to win games for you solo.

 necron99 wrote:
I just can't stomach the lvl 3 psyker + familiar cost...

Ok, so let's see if I've got this right. I've got a model that can move up to 24" (flat out move included) and get a 4+ jink save and normally will hit first getting between 5-9 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge ignoring most FNP and probably causing ID with some additional goodies if someone survives?

You don't HAVE to smash to get the AP2, most of the time you won't smash really, so that is actually something around 8 attacks S6 AP2 with fleshbane, and curse. The psyker+familiar is indeed expensive but getting iron arm is worth it.

Oh yeah, no doubt he can't do it alone. Most of my army is a really shootie gun line (IG) so a DP plus a maulerfiend are there to clean things up after the bullets have flown. As I am finding out there aren't enough bullets to stop a lot of stuff but if I knock something down enough as it approaches the ADL it should make life a lot easier for my cc beasts.

 necron99 wrote:
Oh yeah, no doubt he can't do it alone. Most of my army is a really shootie gun line (IG) so a DP plus a maulerfiend are there to clean things up after the bullets have flown. As I am finding out there aren't enough bullets to stop a lot of stuff but if I knock something down enough as it approaches the ADL it should make life a lot easier for my cc beasts.

If what you need is a unit to tie up others in combat then DO NOT TAKE THE BLACK MACE ON YOUR DP. I know people are going to flame me for it, but a DP with a black mace will usually wipeout most units in one round of combat leaving him open to enemy shooting on their ensuing turn. Run your DP with MoN, power armor, wings and possibly the burning brand. While you're swooping you will get a 3+ to your jink due to shrouding. Also, why are you giving him mastery levels? You said that your shooting is covered. Do not ramp up the price of an already costly unit with something that is as random as psychic powers--if he needs to be shooty at all, give him the brand. Yes it isn't cheap, but you know exactly what you're getting. The DP is already a monster in close-combat and as long as you aren't trying to throw him at anything ridiculous he will win most of them in two rounds, leaving him free in YOUR turn to then go tie up another unit. I believe synergsitically this load out would work best with your list based on what you are saying.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
Oh yeah, no doubt he can't do it alone. Most of my army is a really shootie gun line (IG) so a DP plus a maulerfiend are there to clean things up after the bullets have flown. As I am finding out there aren't enough bullets to stop a lot of stuff but if I knock something down enough as it approaches the ADL it should make life a lot easier for my cc beasts.

If what you need is a unit to tie up others in combat then DO NOT TAKE THE BLACK MACE ON YOUR DP. I know people are going to flame me for it, but a DP with a black mace will usually wipeout most units in one round of combat leaving him open to enemy shooting on their ensuing turn. Run your DP with MoN, power armor, wings and possibly the burning brand. While you're swooping you will get a 3+ to your jink due to shrouding. The DP is already a monster in combat and as long as you aren't trying to throw him at anything ridiculous he will win most combats in two rounds, leaving him free in YOUR turn to then tie up another unit. I believe synergsitically this load out would work best with your list based on what you are saying.

With DoN the unit can just run and then shoot you on his turn since the DP can't sweep. Also you are probably giving too much credit to the black mace DP, your avg roll with the black mace DP will make 4.72 wounds, that is usually half a squad any MEQ/fearless unit will stay (which are usually the ones that go into close combat). Also most of the time your opponent will challenge the DP to minimize its dmg, meaning that he will actually just do 1 wounds against the challengee and stay there until the next turn.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
I know people are going to flame me for it

Flame in 3... 2... 1...




But, in seriousness:
I personally think a DP is best used as a way to assassinate high-value targets, and to be a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX.
I'd say kit him out to ensure quick destruction, and prey upon the fact that most people will concentrate on the DP far more than any other unit in your army.

With DoN the unit can just run and then shoot you on his turn since the DP can't sweep. Also you are probably giving too much credit to the black mace DP, your avg roll with the black mace DP will make 4.72 wounds, that is usually half a squad any MEQ/fearless unit will stay (which are usually the ones that go into close combat). Also most of the time your opponent will challenge the DP to minimize its dmg, meaning that he will actually just do 1 wounds against the challengee and stay there until the next turn.

You make an excellent counter argument. Yes the averages are there that the hammer will only do 5 wounds, but I and several of my buddies have watched our black maced DP annihilate a unit in one round of combat only to be shot to pieces on the next player turn--rather upsetting. This is why I instead take the Brand. It will soften up some of the larger units to more manageable sizes. Also, in your scenario of only doing 4.72 wounds with the mace you still run the risk of MEQs choosing to fail the leadership and shoot you next turn. So in the instances that your enemy doesn't have the option, mine is still a viable tactic to remain in combat--safe from shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
I know people are going to flame me for it

Flame in 3... 2... 1...




But, in seriousness:
I personally think a DP is best used as a way to assassinate high-value targets, and to be a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX.
I'd say kit him out to ensure quick destruction, and prey upon the fact that most people will concentrate on the DP far more than any other unit in your army.

Haha. I can't even be mad at that. You also make an excellent counter. I am a big proponent of target saturation, but would rather it not be on my 200+ point model.

Taking nurgles rot (whatever it's called now) and busting it out in combat can actually take a couple models down per turn.
It really kills things like termagaunts and you need a nurgle power anyway.
Beyond that the nurgle prince is a basic "point it and watch it kill" model against most things.

I am curious about people who have tried DP in 6th ed. How are your experiences? Is it better to go with the full out 300+ point DP with 2 biomancy powers and the works? Or is it better to go with a more basic flying, power armored tzeentch DP, which will be slightly over 200 points?

I am keen to try out DP, which I haven''t yet this edition due to the high point costs, but I just wonder if it will simply die horribly to shooting. Even with Tzeentch and flying, its still a T5 model. How do you guys keep it alive? Quad guns, Icarus lascannons, other flyers, and even ground shooting could take it out once its grounded. Getting the 300 plus point DP for the sake of hoping to roll Iron Arm seems rather iffy to me.

And I can't help comparing it to the other popular hammer in CSM codex, the Axe of Biting Fury wielding Juggerlord. This comes in at under 200 points and is just as killy and scary as a flying DP with a black mace. For over 300 points, which the biomancy DP needs, the Juggerlord can add on some chaos spawn friends. It just seems like the Juggerlord is a much better unit point for point compared than the single flying biomancy powered DP.

How has the experiences been for people running a cheaper flying, power armored Tzeentch DP? Still attracts lots of fire while at least not being as big a point sink if it dies to shooting without accomplishing anything?

Deamon princes are so expensive. Couple that with the fact that they take up one of our HQ slots (arguably our best slot) and you realize theyve gotta make a big impact to be valid in your list. The bottom line is that if your DPs arent specialised to fit into a specific cohesive role in your list then your using them wrong. Dont give him a flamer if you have a heldrake or other ap3 flying around. Dont give him a mace if youve spent 75+ familiar points in mastery levels to make him a cc beast (he already is one). If you need some AV shooting then a tzeench mark isnt bad with mastery levels.

A deamon prince charged ahead on its own will do nothing. Theres almost no single unit your opponent wont be happy to trade to get a clean round of shooting off on you and at 4w t5 no ew your gonna have to roll well to still be standing. On that- the shrouded from nurgle isnt enough to keep this fella up. It looks great with him in a forrest but the slow and purposefull debuff will have him standing out in the open and an easy target.

I like the comparison with the jugger lord- a very mobile and great killy option that hits at i5 with a out of control number of ap2 hits at a far cheaper price this is gonna do very similar damage to the standard cc dp tzeench black mace, the dp has a slight advantage with mobility and initiative while the lord a slight advantage with survivability coz you can throw a few spawn in. The DP is better at dealing with those hard hitting cc bosses- is this worth 100 points? well thats up to you. Both are good choices for me. If your army isnt mobile and lets face it most csm armies are footslogging with a few fancy things in there, chances are you arent... Is your DP gonna get isolated or do anything the lord cant...? hmm

With psychic powers im starting to think that to save your csm HQ slot and to negate the stupid 1 power from god its worth looking at deamon allies if you can. Even think about cutting the 3+ armor off him. Because of the he massive price for a t5 non eternal warrior, its either a special weapon or psychic powers but not both.

Look at your list. Choose appropriate role. Kit your dp. Dont get over eager with him (aka wait for your heldrake )

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am curious about people who have tried DP in 6th ed. How are your experiences? Is it better to go with the full out 300+ point DP with 2 biomancy powers and the works? Or is it better to go with a more basic flying, power armored tzeentch DP, which will be slightly over 200 points?

I am keen to try out DP, which I haven''t yet this edition due to the high point costs, but I just wonder if it will simply die horribly to shooting. Even with Tzeentch and flying, its still a T5 model. How do you guys keep it alive? Quad guns, Icarus lascannons, other flyers, and even ground shooting could take it out once its grounded. Getting the 300 plus point DP for the sake of hoping to roll Iron Arm seems rather iffy to me.

And I can't help comparing it to the other popular hammer in CSM codex, the Axe of Biting Fury wielding Juggerlord. This comes in at under 200 points and is just as killy and scary as a flying DP with a black mace. For over 300 points, which the biomancy DP needs, the Juggerlord can add on some chaos spawn friends. It just seems like the Juggerlord is a much better unit point for point compared than the single flying biomancy powered DP.

How has the experiences been for people running a cheaper flying, power armored Tzeentch DP? Still attracts lots of fire while at least not being as big a point sink if it dies to shooting without accomplishing anything?

Well, I've used the DP. It was a Daemon of Tzeentch with wings, PA an ML2.
The psy powers were frankly useless, but flying and PA are extremely useful.

I used it in a battle against Orks, and it assassinated a mob of lootaz which was protecting a Mek w/ SAG who was the warlord. Turn 2 charge on them, kills them all. The entire horde then turned right around to run at the DP, saving my marines for a turn. The Orks shot the DP to death after quite a lot of shooting, but the damage was done. The effects of removing all the 7+ str guns, and being a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX saved my army from being pwned. PM's then held off the entire horde (14 of them, a nurgle lord, and a helbrute) for about 8 rounds of melee. That was a feth huge number of Orks.

Overall: Extremely useful. Use it to kill the most valuable target. If it gets killed, you'll have made a pretty good dent in the force, and probably caused an army to turn around for a turn. It it's not taken as a distraction, you can keep killing.

Solo Daemon Princes almost always either preform like a rock star or die without causing damage. This is because by himself he will usually draw a huge amount of fire power on that 1 turn of shooting, if he lives he will get to basically delete a unit of your choice and as often as not get to hope combat into combat without taking anything other than overwatch. Just as often howver you will see your 265 point monster die turn 1 and if your unlucky without tying up to much of your oponents fire. If your list can still operate and compete with 265+ point disadvantage, go for it.

More likely your list cannot compete if you have to play with what is essentially spotting your opponent 265 point. Thus, IMO solo daemon princes are not worth it. However Daemon princes are almost a textbook example of threat overload. If you present your oppoinents with lots of threats that will hit at the same time, your opponent has to make tough choices on what to shoot at. This makes each and every one of your units more survivable as your opponent cannot safely concentrate on one threat. CSM is very cabable of creating lists that present the opponent with 5+ targets that represent huge threats that will hit Turn 2. My list for examples uses 3 maulerfiends, a Loard on a bike with Spawn, a Bloodthirster and Daemon prince. It's really amazing how often a daemon prince gets to hit the unit i want when my oponent has to deal with 3 AV12 walkers 5++ walkers a bloodthirster and a lord.

As far as targets for a daemon prince I like to send him at a unit like wraiths (if no mindshackles) or terminators. these units are worthy targets that take about 2 assault phases to kill. They represent a significant unit for your opponent and they are just survivable enough to not die on your turn.

And again tzentch armour wings black mace is the best load out for a CSM daemon prince.

 necron99 wrote:
Am I wasting points on making him a level one psyker?

yes, ld 9 psykers arent great. You would only want to take it at lvl 3 maybe to get biomancy but even then, is it worth 75 points when you are gonna die to SotW and RoW all the time?

IMO, a Daemon Prince is similar to Abaddon, in that your army needs to be designed around it, rather than it fitting into your army.

It does little to support your other units, so the other units need to act like the structure of a giant battering ram, holding everything together, while the DP is the head of the ram. Once it hits, your opponent is f****d if it's been done properly, but if the ram itself is taken out too quickly/before it's job is complete, you are the f****d one.

Pony_law wrote:
...If your list can still operate and compete with 265+ point disadvantage, go for it.

Shockingly I lost not only the DP but also my maulerfied by turn 2 (neither of which did anything) and my stupid heldrake didn't come in until turn 4! I thought I was a gonner for sure. By turn 5 I managed to pull out a tie but sadly the game went one more turn and his heldrake flew on and flamed my platoon command squad that was holding an objective. In the end I was left with a heldrake and a vendetta and he had a chaos lord on a bike, 8 chaos marines sitting on the other objective and a heldrake. So, considering I was playing with a 500+ deficit most of the game I did ok enough that I think if I just figure out the best use for DP and maulerfiend I shouldn't embarrass myself too much

Daemon of Nurgle, Wings, Psyker level 3, Spell familiar, Burning Brand.

That's my usual setup. He's not supposed to touch the ground, so the points for power armour is saved. With a Little luck, Iron Arm will make him VERY hard to kill, with mostly only snap shots hitting him. I usually also grap Nurgles Rot (Primaris) as it is an excellent attack when you can fly him right into the middle of Things. Especially effective against swarms of orcs or tyranids. The Brand is just generally good. Get him the AP2 Life Drain power from Biomancy as well, and he can heal himself if he is wounded. He always draws an insane amount of fire, and with a Little luck on Grounding tests (place him over terrain, if possible, so he gets an advantage from Shrouded if he should fall) he will last for quite a while.

@GeneralCael - I kinda like that setup, too. Basically a cc heldrake (ok, the flamer isn't quite as powerful). When you say try to land in cover if he falls out of the sky you're referring to the onslaught of fire he'll receive once he's been grounded right? Since he doesn't have an armor save.