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Query!

Would the ability of Nemesor Zandrekh of the Necron - "Phased Reinforcements" work on unit's in an Allied Detachment? It doesn't state "Necron" unit's - it just says that when an enemy unit comes in from reserve you can immediately Deepstrike a unit in your reserve before the end of the movement phase.

Special abilities do not generally work on 'non-battle brother' allies. (And the necrons have no battle brothers currently)

So based on that, I'd say no it doesn't work for allied units in reserve.

That said, I'd prefer if it 'did' work for hopefully obvious reasons.

Having rechecked the rules as well as the FAQ, it seems that Phased Reinforcements would indeed work on an Allied Detachment.

If it were a piece of wargear, I might agree that they couldn't benefit from it, but it's a special rule that only addresses units in Reserve, rather than friendly units in Reserve. As it reads, it seems to me it would allow you to bring in even enemy units from Reserve, provided that you are the controlling player for them. Still, I would definitely talk this one over with your local gaming community and see how everyone else feels before playing it that way. If you want to bring a list using this to a tourney, I would definitely check with the TO ahead of time to make sure you guys were (or were not) on the same page.

Good eye, though! I'm definitely going to see if this will fly down at my local. Thanks for showing it to me!

If it is a special rule that afects Reseres, it cannot affect allied units (BRB FAQ).

Thanks for pointing that out, Happyjew! I'd forgotten about that. Two questions, though.

The first is that the FAQ talks about Reserve rolls. Doesn't Zandrekh's ability just bring the reinforcements in, without any rolls required? (If it said something like, 'Reserve rolls are automatically passed,' I could see the BRB definitively shooting this tactic down.) So, does the BRB FAQ still apply, in your opinion? Personally, it seems to me that Phased Reinforcements does not fall under the heading of 'modifiers to things such as Reserves rolls.'

And I don't have the BRB to hand, so I can't check the wording, but doesn't the FAQ, as it is written now, mean that rules from the Allied detachment can affect the Primary, but not vice versa? So, even if the BRB FAQ does cover Phased Reinforcements, would you be able to use it so long as the Necrons weren't your Primary detachment?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious. Thanks for helping me try to puzzle this out.

The FAQ states "Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls, apply to units from an allied detachment?"

Going to pg 124 we get "Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in reserve."

I bring these rules up because we have an issue.

Namely, if his ability is to function as "arriving from reserve" capability then per FAQ allies can't be used AND we have to roll for it as a 1 would stop them. The phrasing of Zahndrek's rule doesn't make a specific statement about the roll of 1. Just that they can "..choose to enter play in the enemy turn.." A unit could certainly choose to enter play, but still have to roll in order to succeed in that choice.

Conversely, we could ignore all of the Arriving From Reserve rules. Yes, the models were in reserve. However, this isn't happening during the controlling players reserve, it's happening during the opponents, so it's not modifying a named situation that actually exists it's establishing a new thing altogether, ie: deploying during your opponents reserve, and it's telling what to do: just DS them. As the rule doesn't address allies over reserve rolls at all, just "any number of units in reserve" then it could be argued that allies count and there is no roll to see if they come on.

I'm not arguing either way, just trying to show a couple ways of looking at it and curious as to what others think.

 Happyjew wrote:
If it is a special rule that afects Reseres, it cannot affect allied units (BRB FAQ).

Which question in the BRB FAQ are you referring to?

I thought he was referring to this one, but I may have been mistaken.

Q: Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls,
apply to units from an allied detachment? (p124)
A: No.

Personally I see anything that affects Reserves coming in - such as modifying the actual dice roll or allowing a unit to automatically come in as modifying the Reserve roll. Furthermore, although the BRB does not state it, it implies that only BB can benefit from allied special rules. As Necrons don't have any BB, nobody (except Necrons) can benefit from Phased Reinforcement.

I can see where you think they intended it to work that way, and if a later FAQ provides some greater clarity in that direction, it would make complete sense. However, absent any kind of hard ruling, I think I would have to allow an opponent who wanted to use this against me to go ahead. (Not a big Necron player, myself.)

Still, this is one of those areas that I think has good arguments on both sides, so I would love to see Games Workshop provide some clarity. I'll happily send an email to the FAQ department. I'm sure that it would only encourage a response if other people did the same.

I'll post this here as well, but this is how I see it -

The biggest reason I see that this would not work for any army other than necrons is because the way the rule is worded would allow for even the enemy to bring in their units on their turn after 1 unit arrived from reserves. Nothing in the phased reinforcements rule states "Friendly" units, it says "Any number of units in reserve".

So if this were to apply to necron allies (who are all enemies, mind you) then your opponent could use it as well.

I agree that they are enemies Kevin. If the rule specified friendly units, then I would totally agree that you couldn't do it. It just seems to me that the only one who has permission to use Zandrekh's special rules is his controlling player. I couldn't think of another special character who gives a special rule to his opponent's forces (when it isn't specified that it does so). If I could find another rule that brought up similar issues it might help clarify this for me.

I think this one is largely academic, but it's interesting to me to discuss. I don't think I would try and use it without asking first, though, since it seems pretty clear that the majority opinion is against me.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I agree that they are enemies Kevin. If the rule specified friendly units, then I would totally agree that you couldn't do it. It just seems to me that the only one who has permission to use Zandrekh's special rules is his controlling player. I couldn't think of another special character who gives a special rule to his opponent's forces (when it isn't specified that it does so). If I could find another rule that brought up similar issues it might help clarify this for me.

I think this one is largely academic, but it's interesting to me to discuss. I don't think I would try and use it without asking first, though, since it seems pretty clear that the majority opinion is against me.

Ya, been having a debate with someone in an identical thread and while I can't find it I could have sworn there was a statement somewhere saying that special rules (or army rules?) only affected friendly (or [Codex Name]) units unless specified otherwise.

Where my hangup is, even with that, is that the phased reinforcements rules "Any number of units".

Now keep in mind, it's clear to me what the intent of the rule is and how it should be played. But currently with my view on it, if you allow this rule to affect allies then it must be able to affect your opponent as well, because there are only certain ways to handle a situation like this.
1) The rule affects only "friendlies".
2) The rule affects only "Necrons"
3) The rule affects only the detachment Zahndrekh is in.
4) The rule affects everyone.

I personally think there is a fifth option, though, which is that Zandrekh's ability affects all units that his controlling player also controls. (If you were playing a doubles game, then I don't think it would work on your team mate's units, regardless of what army they come from.) That's just my own personal take on it. I sent a message to the GW FAQ address, but I don't think this is a big enough deal that we'll be likely to get a response.

 Happyjew wrote:
Personally I see anything that affects Reserves coming in - such as modifying the actual dice roll or allowing a unit to automatically come in as modifying the Reserve roll. Furthermore, although the BRB does not state it, it implies that only BB can benefit from allied special rules. As Necrons don't have any BB, nobody (except Necrons) can benefit from Phased Reinforcement.

There are two reasons this doesn't apply -

1) Modifiers are explicitly defined by the Rulebook, and as a result, modifiers don't include the definition of not having to roll at all. Likewise, an automatic pass isn't modifying either.
2) Implication isn't enough. As mentioned, this specific rule (which already overrides normal deployment rules by allowing arriving from Reserve in the opponent's turn) doesn't specify friendly units, and wasn't FAQed or changed later.

For what it's worth, I agree that RAI was probably for it to only allow Necron units to arrive - but presently, that's not how it works under RAW.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Personally I see anything that affects Reserves coming in - such as modifying the actual dice roll or allowing a unit to automatically come in as modifying the Reserve roll. Furthermore, although the BRB does not state it, it implies that only BB can benefit from allied special rules. As Necrons don't have any BB, nobody (except Necrons) can benefit from Phased Reinforcement.

There are two reasons this doesn't apply -

1) Modifiers are explicitly defined by the Rulebook, and as a result, modifiers don't include the definition of not having to roll at all. Likewise, an automatic pass isn't modifying either.
2) Implication isn't enough. As mentioned, this specific rule (which already overrides normal deployment rules by allowing arriving from Reserve in the opponent's turn) doesn't specify friendly units, and wasn't FAQed or changed later.

For what it's worth, I agree that RAI was probably for it to only allow Necron units to arrive - but presently, that's not how it works under RAW.

Which is why I made sure to make clear my stance was not a RAW argument. Also, i don't necessarily play what I think the rules actually say.

Wow. I'm really surprised at how civil everyone is being here. I'm really glad we're all able to act like adults here. (Sometimes it seems like it's hard to get a friendly discourse when it comes to rules discussions.)

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wow. I'm really surprised at how civil everyone is being here. I'm really glad we're all able to act like adults here. (Sometimes it seems like it's hard to get a friendly discourse when it comes to rules discussions.)

My, gods, you are right. Well, best fix that little issue then. Y'all are stoopid and cant read the rules right. lern 2 play noobz.

JK. Sometimes it's just not worth it to get worked up...

 Super Ready wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Personally I see anything that affects Reserves coming in - such as modifying the actual dice roll or allowing a unit to automatically come in as modifying the Reserve roll. Furthermore, although the BRB does not state it, it implies that only BB can benefit from allied special rules. As Necrons don't have any BB, nobody (except Necrons) can benefit from Phased Reinforcement.

There are two reasons this doesn't apply -

1) Modifiers are explicitly defined by the Rulebook, and as a result, modifiers don't include the definition of not having to roll at all. Likewise, an automatic pass isn't modifying either.
2) Implication isn't enough. As mentioned, this specific rule (which already overrides normal deployment rules by allowing arriving from Reserve in the opponent's turn) doesn't specify friendly units, and wasn't FAQed or changed later.

For what it's worth, I agree that RAI was probably for it to only allow Necron units to arrive - but presently, that's not how it works under RAW.

I would like to point out that if you're referencing the "Modifiers" section on page 2, that is only for statistics. A reserves roll is not a statistic. The "Modifiers" section in reserves rule is very minimalist in any kind of explanation and it simply states that some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from reserve. To think a modification in all cases is some form of a mathematical equation is not accurate. In the case of phased reinforcements, the roll required is your opponents success on a reserve roll (or something allowing them to come in from reserve automatically, which itself is also a modification). That is modifying the roll required by the purest definition of "modify".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I personally think there is a fifth option, though, which is that Zandrekh's ability affects all units that his controlling player also controls. (If you were playing a doubles game, then I don't think it would work on your team mate's units, regardless of what army they come from.) That's just my own personal take on it. I sent a message to the GW FAQ address, but I don't think this is a big enough deal that we'll be likely to get a response.

Well yes, that is of course an option that could have been taken had it been spelled out in the rule. My suggested options of ways to interpret it were the only ways under the current allowances within the rulebook that it could be taken as.

Ooh, well put. That actually blows my argument out of the water, to the point where I have to say my position is changed.

The way I'm looking at it still is that RAW it is fully workable for allies, but without taking into account the fact that Zahndrek is bat crap crazy I don't believe it is RAI. I suppose I will leave it to the various TO's on the issue and wait/pray for an FAQ ruling

 Kevin949 wrote:

I would like to point out that if you're referencing the "Modifiers" section on page 2, that is only for statistics. A reserves roll is not a statistic. The "Modifiers" section in reserves rule is very minimalist in any kind of explanation and it simply states that some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from reserve. To think a modification in all cases is some form of a mathematical equation is not accurate. In the case of phased reinforcements, the roll required is your opponents success on a reserve roll (or something allowing them to come in from reserve automatically, which itself is also a modification). That is modifying the roll required by the purest definition of "modify".

I agree. (And I disagree. ) I agree that automatically passing a roll might very well be qualified as a 'modifier.' (Just like replacing a statistic with a set value.) However, Zandrekh's ability does not allow you to automatically pass a Reserve roll. If it said 'On the following turn after your opponent deploys any unit from Reserves, any of your Reserve rolls may be automatically successful,' I would totally agree with your point. However, Zandrekh instead allows those units to be deployed out of phase with the normal order of operations, with no mention of a Reserve roll at all. He doesn't modify the Reserve roll, he bypasses it entirely. That's just the way I see it, of course.


Complete side question:

GW FAQ wrote: Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls,
apply to units from an allied detachment? (p124)
A: No.

Here, does 'Allied Detachment' refer to both detachments, or only to the secondary group of allies? (The one with the smaller FOC.) It's a big difference. If the latter, then that means that modifiers from the Allies still affect the main force of your army. Honestly, I can see it working either way.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
The way I'm looking at it still is that RAW it is fully workable for allies, but without taking into account the fact that Zahndrek is bat crap crazy I don't believe it is RAI. I suppose I will leave it to the various TO's on the issue and wait/pray for an FAQ ruling

I kind of thought his insanity was part of the reason it WAS the way they intended it. The Space Marine captain he's working with doesn't understand why Zandrekh keeps calling him "Deuce" and talking about that summer break they spent in Cancun, but he's still happy to feed the Nemesor's targeting data into his drop pods.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

I would like to point out that if you're referencing the "Modifiers" section on page 2, that is only for statistics. A reserves roll is not a statistic. The "Modifiers" section in reserves rule is very minimalist in any kind of explanation and it simply states that some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from reserve. To think a modification in all cases is some form of a mathematical equation is not accurate. In the case of phased reinforcements, the roll required is your opponents success on a reserve roll (or something allowing them to come in from reserve automatically, which itself is also a modification). That is modifying the roll required by the purest definition of "modify".

I agree. (And I disagree. ) I agree that automatically passing a roll might very well be qualified as a 'modifier.' (Just like replacing a statistic with a set value.) However, Zandrekh's ability does not allow you to automatically pass a Reserve roll. If it said 'On the following turn after your opponent deploys any unit from Reserves, any of your Reserve rolls may be automatically successful,' I would totally agree with your point. However, Zandrekh instead allows those units to be deployed out of phase with the normal order of operations, with no mention of a Reserve roll at all. He doesn't modify the Reserve roll, he bypasses it entirely. That's just the way I see it, of course.


Complete side question:

GW FAQ wrote: Do modifiers that apply to such things as Reserve rolls,
apply to units from an allied detachment? (p124)
A: No.

Here, does 'Allied Detachment' refer to both detachments, or only to the secondary group of allies? (The one with the smaller FOC.) It's a big difference. If the latter, then that means that modifiers from the Allies still affect the main force of your army. Honestly, I can see it working either way.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
The way I'm looking at it still is that RAW it is fully workable for allies, but without taking into account the fact that Zahndrek is bat crap crazy I don't believe it is RAI. I suppose I will leave it to the various TO's on the issue and wait/pray for an FAQ ruling

I kind of thought his insanity was part of the reason it WAS the way they intended it. The Space Marine captain he's working with doesn't understand why Zandrekh keeps calling him "Deuce" and talking about that summer break they spent in Cancun, but he's still happy to feed the Nemesor's targeting data into his drop pods.

I get where you're coming from, but remember that the rule for modifiers under reserves just says that things can modify the roll "required". It does not say that has to be your roll. In zahndrekh's case, the roll required is your opponents roll. Even with things like drop pods or other such rules, those all state they "come in automatically on turn X" or what have you, there's still a roll technically happening you're just disregarding any result (similar to auto-passing dangerous terrain tests). But, hey, we can agree to disagree on this as well. *Shrug*

Since the FAQ calls out "allied detachment" then it would only affect those from that FOC. Had they generalized it to just "Allies" or included a "vice versa" term, then it would have been both. However keep in mind, almost all other codex specific rules state "Friendly" or "[Codex Name]" regarding who they affect. Big Z is just an anomaly in this case.