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 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed, Frazz is making sense. Obviously his account has been hacked by the wiener dogs.

woof woof!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed, Frazz is making sense. Obviously his account has been hacked by the wiener dogs.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-07/un-distances-self-from-report-syrian-rebels-used-nerve-gas/4673356

Seems there's some confusion/questioning about this.

The more questions we ask before shedding blood the better.

It would seem that Israel is picking up the slack anyway.

 Monster Rain wrote:
The more questions we ask before shedding blood the better.

It would seem that Israel is picking up the slack anyway.

I don't trust the Israelis not to turn it into a blood bath though. Which would be worse for everyone, not just Syrians.

Talk now of arming the rebels....isn;t AQ fighting with the rebels?

Arming the rebels would be political suicide for anyone advocating it. Its effectively advocating arming AQ aligned forces, forces that there is evidence for them not only having but actually having deployed a WMD.

Dem are floating a bill on it already....I think...its going to get shot down..its insane

[url]
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/06/senate-chairman-pushed-for-arming-syrian-rebels/[/url]

O'boy are their political opponents going to have a field day come election season. More so if we get complete confirmation the rebels were the users of the gas.

 Grey Templar wrote:
O'boy are their political opponents going to have a field day come election season. More so if we get complete confirmation the rebels were the users of the gas.

It's genius isn't it.

'Praise the rebels fighting for freedom, we must help them'
'AQ and jhadist groups are part of the rebel make up'
'But rebels! freedom fighters! free world!'
'Rebels may also have used a WMD'
'No, it's just Sarin, Freedom!'
'.........'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Talk now of arming the rebels....isn;t AQ fighting with the rebels?

Oh no, just make sure the support doesn't end up going to 'those' groups. Simple...................

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Oh no, just make sure the support doesn't end up going to 'those' groups. Simple...................

We did it in WW2 in France. We simply handed the Communist partisans over to the Nazis before we 'liberated' everyone else.

You need serious proof of that bucko. How did we hand anyone over?

By not showing up before the Nazis had already disposed of the commies.

 Frazzled wrote:
You need serious proof of that bucko. How did we hand anyone over?

In spring of 1944, 23 members of the FTP-MOI were executed, having been betrayed to the Nazis by parties unnamed. They were one of the most effective communist resistance groups operating in France. After the war, allegations of being betrayed by either their fellow communists, the Gaulleists, or OSS began to surface, with the surviving members of the organization accusing the Gaulleists, the Gaulleists blaming the communists, and elements of both sides blaming the OSS.

The current 'official' French stance is that they were apprehended by the French police using old fashioned leg work.

Unfortunately,all the police involved seem to have died immediately after the war as 'collaborators', and much of the documentation was lost, so 'proof' is something I admit to being short on. Like so many operations by insurgents during WW2, little proof remains of anything at all.

Other than dead Nazis. Which is a nice thing.

Ah so this collective 'we' is possibly just 'them' then?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You need serious proof of that bucko. How did we hand anyone over?

In spring of 1944, 23 members of the FTP-MOI were executed, having been betrayed to the Nazis by parties unnamed. They were one of the most effective communist resistance groups operating in France. After the war, allegations of being betrayed by either their fellow communists, the Gaulleists, or OSS began to surface, with the surviving members of the organization accusing the Gaulleists, the Gaulleists blaming the communists, and elements of both sides blaming the OSS.

The current 'official' French stance is that they were apprehended by the French police using old fashioned leg work.

Unfortunately,all the police involved seem to have died immediately after the war as 'collaborators', and much of the documentation was lost, so 'proof' is something I admit to being short on. Like so many operations by insurgents during WW2, little proof remains of anything at all.

Other than dead Nazis. Which is a nice thing.

allegations from communists. Thats sweet. Proof have you not. I've heard it was the communists that killed Mother Theresa. Much of the documentation has been lost, so 'proof' is something I admit to being short on.

 Frazzled wrote:

allegations from communists. Thats sweet. Proof have you not. I've heard it was the communists that killed Mother Theresa. Much of the documentation has been lost, so 'proof' is something I admit to being short on.

Actually the published allegations were from the Gaulleists who blamed the communists and the US. So, that should read 'allegations from Frenchmen about communists'.

I CAN however prove that the US deliberately and with forethought smuggled out war criminals of the first order, gave them new identities in the United States and did their level best to make the problem go away as long as said Nazis were useful to the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Here's a real monument to the Space Program:


One of Von Braun's rocket engines at the Mittlebrau-Dora subcamp at Buchenwald.

Interestingly enough, Sarin was first discovered by the Nazis.

And? I mean I get that you're trying really really hard to slam the US for some damn reason but, really?

You still haven't answered the charges that the commies killed Lincoln.

 Frazzled wrote:

You still haven't answered the charges that the commies killed Lincoln.

*sigh*

No, I alleged that the allies had communist members of the French Resistance killed. However, the only proof is the testimony of the people involved. Which boils down to a 'he said, she said'.

It would not surprise me if it was true, however, considering later that year, English and Greek forces (with US allied support) would take a direct hand and decimate former anti-Nazi communist partisans in Greece and lead directly to the Greek Civil War.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

No, I alleged that the allies had communist members of the French Resistance killed.

The Allies did not have the Manouchian Group killed. The French* allowed them to be killed for sure, but not the larger group denoted by "Allies".


*The people, not the government.

There are no good guys on either side of this civil war. How about "let them figure it out for themselves"?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
There are no good guys on either side of this civil war. How about "let them figure it out for themselves"?

There never is.

The side ostensibly in favor of freedom and democracy is supported by AQ... while the other is a tyrannical regime that supports torture etc.

It's a moral and ethical quagmire for the US.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
There are no good guys on either side of this civil war. How about "let them figure it out for themselves"?

There never is.

The side ostensibly in favor of freedom and democracy is supported by AQ... while the other is a tyrannical regime that supports torture etc.

It's a moral and ethical quagmire for the US.

Only if we assume that "spreading freedom" is a moral and ethical obligation of the US. Otherwise it's just a bunch of idiots knocking each other off, and a source of fantastic videos on Liveleak.

Same issue with the Muslim Brotherhood taking control over Egypt. "We" assume that freedom is always a good thing. It's not, if those free people hate us. Sometimes you need a dictator to keep scumbags in check.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's a moral and ethical quagmire for the US.

And a military quagmire
And a financial quagmire
And a geopolitical quagmire

Best to stay out of it then

As far as freedom and democracy goes, I'm not exactly holding out hope that a regime change courtesy of the AQ affiliated FSA will bring about a democracy with individual freedoms and rights.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:"We" assume that freedom is always a good thing. It's not, if those free people hate us. Sometimes you need a dictator to keep scumbags in check.

Three questions:
1. Can you clarify this? Because that sounds kinda fethed up, and I'd like you to expand on just what you mean so I'm not misinterpreting it.
2. You assume everyone who hates you to be a scumbag?
3. Assuming people do hate you, don't you think helping a dictator to keep them in check could be the cause of that animosity towards you?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Same issue with the Muslim Brotherhood taking control over Egypt. "We" assume that freedom is always a good thing. It's not, if those free people hate us. Sometimes you need a dictator to keep scumbags in check.

Frazz, this is the sort of mindset that makes me knock America where possible. We back dictators, tyrants, and other assorted scum, even though we know it's wrong, and then complain that people shouldn't have democracy because they don't like us for having supported the regime that tortured and imprisoned them for all those years.

If the US doesn't want to be hated, they really need to rethink their foreign policies.

Supporting people overthrowing tyranny = good.

Supporting tyranny and oppression = bad.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Same issue with the Muslim Brotherhood taking control over Egypt. "We" assume that freedom is always a good thing. It's not, if those free people hate us. Sometimes you need a dictator to keep scumbags in check.

Frazz, this is the sort of mindset that makes me knock America where possible. We back dictators, tyrants, and other assorted scum, even though we know it's wrong, and then complain that people shouldn't have democracy because they don't like us for having supported the regime that tortured and imprisoned them for all those years.

If the US doesn't want to be hated, they really need to rethink their foreign policies.

Supporting people overthrowing tyranny = good.

Supporting tyranny and oppression = bad.

Um... so what?

America will try to do what it's best for the American people... just like any other nation.

If you're going to keep sprouting this... I have to ask... do you own any Apple or Nike products?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Frazz, this is the sort of mindset that makes me knock America where possible. We back dictators, tyrants, and other assorted scum, even though we know it's wrong, and then complain that people shouldn't have democracy because they don't like us for having supported the regime that tortured and imprisoned them for all those years.

If the US doesn't want to be hated, they really need to rethink their foreign policies.

Supporting people overthrowing tyranny = good.

Supporting tyranny and oppression = bad.

Seems like a pretty black and white world view.

So what happens when those people overthrowing tyranny have strong connections with a known terrorist group, that also happens to have committed mass murder on US soil? Are they still good, or are they bad? Or are they "assorted scum", in which case how would supporting them help matters?

How about we supply both sides with weapons. Ensuring that if they don't use chemical weapons we kep supplying them with arms. That way we don't show favoritism to either side. Drive the Russian Federation/Putin nuts figuring out WTF we're doing. That way he pours more money and arms to Assad. That way Isreal can keep nailing suspected arms shipment to Hezballah. That way HazabalIAMANUT keep focus on Isreal and not throw support for Assaad so that way they can in turn buy weapons from North Korea so we....the US Navy can confiscate these shipments...think we've done it twice now...So Iran can step in in support of Assad and we supply the new bunkerbuster to Isreal with a hint to hit some "sites" so we can...Isreal and the US can see how effective it is......or we send in the Night Lords to kill them all....wait......Turkey looking to expand.....wait....Russian Federation wants access to the Meds......China can't get to the Med nor project military power there..so they are OUT.....I say offer Greece Syria so they can get their financial house in order to stay in the the EU instead of having a domino effect of the EU crashing......or we can..as some say put "Boots on the ground".......with Obamacare kicking off...and the US goes down the financial flush........flushing twice to make sure....so the EU collapse..the Med either chem or nuke itself into the stick age...EU has the 2nd Plague hit them.....UK can become the world power again....follow by Spain...France....Ireland.....why Ireland...why the Hell not...US then can afford to invade Mexico for cheap labor....also invest in Canada.....China goes to war with Russa....NK collapse when they try to luanch a nuke at South Korea but explodes on launch...The Emperor arrives and finds all of us "Heretics" besides those that embrace Paganism......damn...these drugs are gggooooooooddddddd after chemo

Well, I would look at it this way.

AQ is definitely NOT interested in democracy and freedom.

These rebels, who may or may not be interested in democracy and freedom, have accepted the help of AQ.


We could give them an ultimatum. If you want help, kill every one of those AQ fethers you find and deliver their heads. Then and only then will we give you aid. And if you are found to still be consorting with AQ we will turn our guns upon you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
How about we supply both sides with weapons. Ensuring that if they don't use chemical weapons we kep supplying them with arms. That way we don't show favoritism to either side. Drive the Russian Federation/Putin nuts figuring out WTF we're doing. That way he pours more money and arms to Assad. That way Isreal can keep nailing suspected arms shipment to Hezballah. That way HazabalIAMANUT keep focus on Isreal and not throw support for Assaad so that way they can in turn buy weapons from North Korea so we....the US Navy can confiscate these shipments...think we've done it twice now...So Iran can step in in support of Assad and we supply the new bunkerbuster to Isreal with a hint to hit some "sites" so we can...Isreal and the US can see how effective it is......or we send in the Night Lords to kill them all....wait......Turkey looking to expand.....wait....Russian Federation wants access to the Meds......China can't get to the Med nor project military power there..so they are OUT.....I say offer Greece Syria so they can get their financial house in order to stay in the the EU instead of having a domino effect of the EU crashing......or we can..as some say put "Boots on the ground".......with Obamacare kicking off...and the US goes down the financial flush........flushing twice to make sure....so the EU collapse..the Med either chem or nuke itself into the stick age...EU has the 2nd Plague hit them.....UK can become the world power again....follow by Spain...France....Ireland.....why Ireland...why the Hell not...US then can afford to invade Mexico for cheap labor....also invest in Canada.....China goes to war with Russa....NK collapse when they try to luanch a nuke at South Korea but explodes on launch...The Emperor arrives and finds all of us "Heretics" besides those that embrace Paganism......damn...these drugs are gggooooooooddddddd after chemo

We should also throw in lots of DVDs of various american TV shows. And fast food, lots of fast food. Get them addicted to consumerism. The first couple generations will put on lots of weight and be unable to fight.