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 yakface wrote:
If it is the same unit, then no logical argument can be made to say that RP/EL isn't a special rule that is saving the unit from taking no further part of the game.
.

SA does not say this.

 Happyjew wrote:

Thokt wrote:
I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

So if I kill a unit of Warriors on the top of Turn 1 and the attached Lord or Cryptek stands back up do I still get First Blood?

The way we play it no, you got to kill the cryptek or lord also.

tgf wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Thokt wrote:
I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

So if I kill a unit of Warriors on the top of Turn 1 and the attached Lord or Cryptek stands back up do I still get First Blood?

The way we play it no, you got to kill the cryptek or lord also.

I'd agree with that. It's the same as killing a Grey Hunter unit but leaving the Wolf Guard that was attached to it at the beginning of the game alive. It's no longer Wolf Guard, but an upgrade to that unit. Gotta kill 'em all!

rigeld2 wrote:

Thokt wrote:
I believe the SA text is referring to a mechanic described in the game as "saving throws". See my entry above for my opinion on that matter. RP is not a saving throw.

Factually incorrect. ATSKNF isn't a save either.

Any VP sloppiness isn't of note ASFAIK, because VP are rewarded at the end of the game - not in the middle of play.

True. It's awarded for every unit completely destroyed.
Which, if EL creates a new unit, a unit was completely destroyed. Just like spawned gants.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What's the relationship between ATSKNF and RP (and thus EL)? ATSKNF applies to sweeping advances directly, by voiding the destruction of a sweep, but I don't understand how it relates to our conversation.

EL does not create a new unit - the wording in the 'dex is "returned to play". New spawns aren't returned to play, as they were never in play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first blood question is really interesting to me though, the VP condition of First Blood requires only that a model be the first modeled removed from play as a casualty. So I'd have to assume that yes, you've met the requisite for FB, but if it was your Warlord, Slay the Warlord is calculated at the end game, so if the Warlord is still standing, that VP would not be awarded.

As I have stated nothing saved the unit it was destroyed. This is seperate from getting a VP for necrons as they get RP/EL before the model has no way to return to play. By playing with the thought that SA must remove the attached member of the RC all that a necron player has to do is include a Chronotek in his unit then keep his units close by. Using the Chornoteks rolls he bounces his Chronotek into a new unit when the old one dies thereby requiring his opponent to remove all of the necrons units from the game to get any of the VP's as it is part of the unit and the unit is not dead till all members have been removed. Is that what you think they wanted?

Secondly, no one has been able to show that SA affects any abilities that bring back a model from being a casualty. It is equally arguable that they were referring to SR's such as FNP that prevent the model from becoming a casualty which RP/EL does not do. It allows the model to return to play after having become a casualty.

Thirdly, the SA rule uses the word save which is to prevent the loss of life. Did the models die? Yes, which is what allows the RP/EL roll in the first place.

I think once the Crypteks unit is destroyed you lost that unit and the other team gets 1st blood. Under EL it says he can join a new unit if placed in cohesion after his unit is destroyed. If he joins immortals after leading warriors he is the sqaud leader of the warriors and immortals?

A ghost ark could add warriors to those immortals or more immortals?

Also the way you all are playing it you could kill everyone in the unit and as long as the Cryptek came back you could add warrior figures to the unit w/ a ghost ark?

I think he is leader for as long as he has someone to lead. I think you would have to kill off the royal to get the VP for them.

I really think this one w/ SA could go either way till if/when GW FAQs it.

 yakface wrote:
You seem to have a mis-guided idea of what EL actually does. To illustrate this, lets take sweeping advance out of the picture for the time being.
When a model with EL gets killed and an EL token is placed, and that model subsequently gets back up, is this the same model (unit), or a new one?
The answer is: it is the same model (unit), as it is not worth a new kill point each time it goes down and it comes back with the same Wargear it had, etc.

I know perfectly well what EL and RP does and I also know what it doesn't do.
It surely does not save the unit, because saving a model is when you prevent it from dying.
EL allows the model to die and resurrects in afterwards.

For the people who claim that you can get up after being swept, please answer the following. Scenario: Dark Eldar vs Necrons, Cryptek and Lord attached to a unit of Warriors with Immortals nearby. Kabalite Warriors in a horizontally deployed Raider have first turn. The Raider pivots 90 degrees, moves 6". The Kabaite Warriors disembark and manage a 12" charge getting into base contact with the Warriors. The Kabalite Warriors win the combat and the warriors are Swept. The Cryptek passes his EL roll and is placed within 2" of the Immortals. The Lord passes his El roll and stands back up but far away from the Immortals.

1. Does the Dark Eldar player get First Blood? Why?
2. Does the Kabalite Warriors gain a Pain Token? Why?
3. Does the Dark Eldar player receive a Victory Point at the end of the game? Why?
4. Are the Lord and Cryptek still scoring? Why?
5. Can a Ghost Ark use the Cryptek or Lord to add more Warriors? If the Cryptek can and is used, are the Warriors part of the Immortals unit?

Kangodo wrote:

I know perfectly well what EL and RP does and I also know what it doesn't do.
It surely does not save the unit, because saving a model is when you prevent it from dying.
EL allows the model to die and resurrects in afterwards.

There is no logical way you can claim that EL does not rescue the unit. Without EL, the unit would take no further part in the battle. With EL, the unit can take further part in the battle and therefore is absolutely breaking the sweeping advance rules.

So I will try to break it down in a completely logical way. I am also getting rid of all the extraneous garbage to the argument that is flowing around in this thread (as I hope more people will do so we can just focus on the actual issue at hand). Once my point is hashed out for a simple example, the logic can then be applied in every situation regarding the EL rule.


For my example, all I'm talking about is a lone Necron Overlord locked in combat against a single enemy unit. The enemy unit manages to win the round of combat, and successfully performs a sweeping advance, thereby removing the Overlord from play.

Can EL be used to revive the Overlord in this case?

So again, the Sweeping Advance rules say:

The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

That rule has some colorful text in it, but it is also quite clear: No save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage...for [that unit] the battle is over.

While you can (apparently) try to argue that 'at this stage' means 'only at this particular moment', that argument fails because the rest of the sentence goes onto explain what is meant by this...the battle is over for that unit. Nothing can save them, period end of story.

So in my above example, if the Necron Overlord (who is a unit) gets back up again via EL, is the battle over for that unit? No it is not. And what has allowed the battle not to be over for that unit? Ever-Living, which is a special rule (something specifically disallowed).


Finally, as to the argument that you keep making that the unit is 'dead' at that particular time, thereby somehow circumventing the incredibly clear restrictions that Sweeping Advance lays out. Have a look at the Dark Eldar FAQ from GW. The DE gain Power From Pain tokens when they destroy a unit. However, what about when that enemy unit is able to return to play?

Q:When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain token for destroying a model/unit with the ability to return to play? (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely removed from play.

As you can see, a unit that has the ability to return to play does not count as being completely destroyed until it no longer has any opportunity to return to play, which is also why Celestine doesn't give up a VP everytime you knock her down either.

So to try to claim that a Necron Overlord unit which has been knocked down is somehow 'dead' or 'destroyed' and that alone allows it to get out of following the Sweeping Advance restrictions is patently false by the measuring stick of every other similar FAQ ruling that GW has made.

1) Yes the Eldar player would get 1st blood the warriors are gone. It say under ever living that if a unit is killed the Cryptek can join a new unit if he can be place with in coherency. If not he is placed with in 3' of where he was. I think he only leads the squad when he has a squad member left to lead. You would have to kill off the whole royal court to get the other VP in a kill count mission.

2) I know nothing about pain tokens. Never played vs Dark Eldar.

3) Vp for 1st blood at the end of the game = yes.

4) The Lord would be scoring as he is part of the new squad but he is only scoring as long as he has 1 Immortal with him. The Cryptek no. Seeing as how this same event could have happened with shooting and no assault ever happening. According to EL either one could have joined a new legal squad (like Deathmarks - would they be scoring then as they had once led warriors?). I do not think so. You could I guess argue that a lone Cryptek could be scoring if he lead warriors and returned by ever living as he is still solo and maybe the warrior squad leader still but I don't think so b/c if so a ghost ark would be able to add warriors and you wouldn't get that kill point and he wouldn't come back from SA.

5) see above.

Can the Cryptek be brought back by the ghost ark if he is the only one to die in the warrior squad?


Edit to Yakface:

I think that that unit is gone from play and only the special EL rule brings him back from being removed afterward. Codex trumps BRB. Where in Ever Living does it say not to return my Lord if he was killed and removed in a SA. But if the unit is gone and he reverts to his royal court state. It clearly states in EL that he can join another legal unit. His previous unit is gone if they were killed in SA so if he revives alone his unit is still gone he is now a royal court member.

 Mythra wrote:
1) Yes the Eldar player would get 1st blood the warriors are gone. It say under ever living that if a unit is killed the Cryptek can join a new unit if he can be place with in coherency. If not he is placed with in 3' of where he was. I think he only leads the squad when he has a squad member left to lead. You would have to kill off the whole royal court to get the other VP in a kill count mission.

2) I know nothing about pain tokens. Never played vs Dark Eldar.

3) Vp for 1st blood at the end of the game = yes.

4) The Lord would be scoring as he is part of the new squad but he is only scoring as long as he has 1 Immortal with him. The Cryptek no. Seeing as how this same event could have happened with shooting and no assault ever happening. According to EL either one could have joined a new legal squad like Deathmarks would they be scoring then as they had once led warriors? I do not think so. You could I guess argue that a lone Cryptek could be scoring if he lead warriors and returned by ever living as he is still solo and maybe the warrior squad leader still but I don't think so b/c if so a ghost ark would be able to add warriors.

5) see above.

Can the Cryptek be brought back by the ghost ark if he is the only one to die in the warrior squad?


Edit to Yakface:

I think think that unit is gone from play only the special EL rule brings him back. Codex trumps BRB. Where in Ever Living does it not to return my Lord if he was killed and removed in a SA. But The unit is gone and he reverts to royal court state is alone. It clearly states in EL that he can join another legal unit. His previous unit is gone they were killed in SA, if he revives alone his unit is still gone he is now a royal court member.

Why has this thread gotten stuck in all these tangents? People can't even bother to get past the core argument, so why try to answer ten other questions?

I've also gone back and edited my last post to change the Necron Lord to an Overlord, as my point seemed to have flown right by you because of it.

So what happens if the unit was killed due to shooting and the lone Cryptek revives w/ no warriors? Is he still scoring? Can the ghost Ark add warriors to him? What if joins Deathmarks/Royal Court/Immortals is he scoring and can a ghost ark add warriors or models to the Deathmarks/Royal Court/Immortals?

In a game I would let my opponent roll for EL if I SA him but would not roll myself if he had any problem with it as i think the rules aren't clear on it.

 Mythra wrote:
So what happens if the unit was killed due to shooting and the lone Cryptek revives w/ no warriors? Is he still scoring? Can the ghost Ark add warriors to him? What if joins Deathmarks?

In a game I would let my opponent roll for EL if I SA him but would not roll myself if he had any problem with it as i think the rules aren't clear on it.

I am not going to answer that question here because it is immaterial to the actual question this thread is based around, and is one of the many things that is helping to drive people further from the actual issue at hand.

But I also suggest you re-read the Everliving rules if you think there is permission for a non-IC EL model standing back up to join a different unit. That rule does not exist. But again, please do not respond to me about that point in this thread, as it isn't pertinent to the actual topic.

Then I am going to have to say I think they would not come back. There has to be a way to get rid of Justicar Thrawn, St Celestine, and EL Models. SA must be it. I think GW will FAQ this sooner or later tho. I would bet the models do come back.



Oh I see what your saying it can only join a unit if eligible and them not being an IC and only leading a warrior unit then they can't join any unit. Guess I'll start anew topic on that one lol.

There is a very logical way that EL rolls do not rescue the unit. Rescues is the same as save, if you were saved by someone else you were rescued. As I have posted saved it prevented from dying. Did the unit die?

I have asked this question multiple times now and the answer is still yes. If saved means prevent from dying and rescued uses the word saved then doing either would prevent the models from dying. They died, it's the only way you get to make EL rolls.

In what way are you using rescued if the unit has died?

 Gravmyr wrote:
There is a very logical way that EL rolls do not rescue the unit. Rescues is the same as save, if you were saved by someone else you were rescued. As I have posted saved it prevented from dying. Did the unit die?

I have asked this question multiple times now and the answer is still yes. If saved means prevent from dying and rescued uses the word saved then doing either would prevent the models from dying. They died, it's the only way you get to make EL rolls.

In what way are you using rescued if the unit has died?

If that is the case, the Power From Pain (and similar) FAQ rulings would be wrong.

If the unit is destroyed, then it should generate a PfP token, but it doesn't. Only if it has no chance of reviving is it actually considered destroyed.

Are you changing your mind then and saying that models that fell to CC before the sweep do not get to roll EL?

Ever-Living does not allow crypteks and lords to join different units. They are not "ELIGIBLE" key word from the rule. An independent character is eligible to change units during the game, a character is not. I don't see how anyone could interpret the rule that it grants characters (not independent characters) the ability to switch squads. The cyptek or lord that have been split off are forever part of the unit they have joined even if they are the only model left. The ghost ark question is an interesting one. From a strait RAW perspective if a cyptek was the sole remaining member of the warriors unit, it appears a ghost ark could add d3 warriors to his unit. Again this doesn't break the rules or the game.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Are you changing your mind then and saying that models that fell to CC before the sweep do not get to roll EL?

Have you found the part where EL specifies it works against SA?

Because without it you cannot save the unit and have it take further part in the game.. For them, the battle is NOT over.

Directly contradicting the SA rule.

It's dishonest to describe it as saving the unit. It's not a save, the unit is destroyed and doesn't return until the end of the phase.

What about WBB? That wasn't a save, happened even later in the game then RP/EL and in the 4th edition was specifically called out as a special rule that saves the unit.

It's not addressed as such currently, would require a FAQ to name it as such.

Thokt wrote:
It's dishonest to describe it as saving the unit. It's not a save, the unit is destroyed and doesn't return until the end of the phase.

So the unit is gone? Or not?
SA rules require them to be gone - "for them the battle is over".

rigeld2 wrote:

Thokt wrote:
It's dishonest to describe it as saving the unit. It's not a save, the unit is destroyed and doesn't return until the end of the phase.

So the unit is gone? Or not?
SA rules require them to be gone - "for them the battle is over".

Fluff text most likely, or easily could mean the melee combat they were just in.

 Happyjew wrote:
What about WBB? That wasn't a save, happened even later in the game then RP/EL and in the 4th edition was specifically called out as a special rule that saves the unit.

WBB was a completely different rule from RP. Also SA in 4E nd 5E didn't create casualties as in 6E.

If it's the same unit (which it is) and it returns to play, then for them the battle is not over. Directly contradicting the Sweeping Advance rule. You're only allowed to avoid this if your special rule (like ATSKNF) specifically says it can save you from Sweeping Advance.

And the effect of the tesseract labyrinth is "be trapped in the tesseract labyrinth forever". And yet you roll RP.

Does the tesseract labyrinth say "no special rule can save" the model?

Saving a model has nothing to do with RP. The model "dies" and so is never saved (or rescued).

If it continues, or returns, to participate in the battle any further, then you are violating the Sweeping Advance rules.