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AFAIK, when the model is inside (or obscured by) ruins/battlefield debris, you receive a 4+ cover save. Go to Ground in such terrain always gives +2 to this save, instead of +1 in open terrain. So, it goes to 2+. I don't see why it'd become only 3+...

There are plenty of weapons out side of Tau that can negate cover, plus psychic powers. G2G will seriously hamper shooting/mobility on the next turn, so it's not like the unit is geting a 2+ for free.

Area terrain is 5+ even if its got ruins on it. You have to be actually obscured by ruins or wreckage to claim the 4+.

 Vector Strike wrote:
AFAIK, when the model is inside (or obscured by) ruins/battlefield debris, you receive a 4+ cover save. Go to Ground in such terrain always gives +2 to this save, instead of +1 in open terrain. So, it goes to 2+. I don't see why it'd become only 3+...

No. You only get the 4+ cover save by being obscured by the ruin. Not for just being in it. For being on the base you get the standard 5+ area terrain save. If you go to ground, you get to improve any cover save you're eligible for by +1, and you get to improve your area terrain cover save by +2. So with a ruin, either way you're getting a 3+; by improving the 4+ save from the walls by +1, or by improving the 5+ save from the base by +2.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
AFAIK, when the model is inside (or obscured by) ruins/battlefield debris, you receive a 4+ cover save. Go to Ground in such terrain always gives +2 to this save, instead of +1 in open terrain. So, it goes to 2+. I don't see why it'd become only 3+...

No. You only get the 4+ cover save by being obscured by the ruin. Not for just being in it. For being on the base you get the standard 5+ area terrain save. If you go to ground, you get to improve any cover save you're eligible for by +1, and you get to improve your area terrain cover save by +2. So with a ruin, either way you're getting a 3+; by improving the 4+ save from the walls by +1, or by improving the 5+ save from the base by +2.

Failing to see the rules that state this beyond your interpretation? If you go to ground in area terrain you receive +2 to your cover save. There is no requirement for that cover save to be from the area terrain. It just merely gives +2 to your cover save if you go to ground in area terrain. So if in area terrain and also obscured by a ruin or an aegis etc... then you would receive a +2 bonus to your cover save. Whatever that save may be.

Mann - it does not say "+2 to your cover save provided by the area terrain", that has been added in.

But if you take that out of context, then you also must take the 5+ cover save regardless of being obscured out of context and that's madness.

The context is you get +2 to your save. It does not specify what particular cover save; it is entirely out of the scope of the sentence, and does not consider this at all.

Cover save. Not cover saves.

Yes, and in the context of what it is considering there is only one save. It is entirely silent on what happens when you have multiple cover saves

Hey, we're either treating this book like a computer program or we're not. If you want to say the +2 to your cover save applies to all cover saves, you have to also insist that the +5 cover save for being in area terrain overrides any obscuring terrain.

That's dumb.

It's far more reasonable to assume narrow context to the Area Terrain section of the rules.

So what if you have models in one of those craters you can buy, they grant a 5+ save for being in them and count as area terrain (pg 105), and an enemy unit shoot at you but drawn LOS through an intervening building that has been established as ruins obscuring your models/model by 25%. We'll just assume the entire unit is obscured or the enemy is only able to draw LOS to a limited number of models in the unit. You would have to elect to take the best save, which in this case would be a 4+ from the ruins. Now if you were to go to ground (because your unit/models are in area terrain) would that not make your save a 2+?

Obviously this is a specific scenario which would require to be both obscured by another piece of terrain (ruins) whilst being in area terrain. The area terrain would improve your cover save once you go to ground, this does seem to me to be a sound game mechanic. It will be limiting your mobility and decreasing your units ability to put out effective fire. At that much of a penalty why wouldn't you want a pay off for it? Without some serious fire power an entrenched unit should not become so easily dislodge from their position.

I have to agree with Loopy et al. Ultimately, a 2+ could be arrived at if the OP had GtG in the ruins (4+) AND the ruins had a base (area terrain). Otherwise, the 2+ improvement in saving throw would only bring the cover save to a 3+ in either case.

 Loopy wrote:
Hey, we're either treating this book like a computer program or we're not. If you want to say the +2 to your cover save applies to all cover saves, you have to also insist that the +5 cover save for being in area terrain overrides any obscuring terrain.

That's dumb.

It's far more reasonable to assume narrow context to the Area Terrain section of the rules.

Or area terrain has no need for a model to be 25% obscured to receive a cover save from it. Your adding words and/or rules that do not currently exist. RAW the situation listed above grants you a 2+ cover save. It is also my belief RAI is also that you get a 2+ cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mann - it does not say "+2 to your cover save provided by the area terrain", that has been added in.

QFT!

Are you 25% obscured by a ruin? Yes? 4+ save
Are you in Area terrian? Yes? 4+ is still best save.
Did you gtg in Area terrian? Yes 2+ to the cover save.


Models obscured by the ruins and in area terrian and gtg would get a 2+.
Models that are not obscured by ruins and gtg in area terrian get a 3+.
Models obscured by ruins but not in area that gtg get a 3+
Models not obscured by ruins and not in area that gtg get a 6+

Thats how I read the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The context is you get +2 to your save. It does not specify what particular cover save; it is entirely out of the scope of the sentence, and does not consider this at all.

Agreed.

The language used is a lot like Shrouded, which is also a flat +2 to the cover save. I can't see arguing that Shrouded only ever provides a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether you're standing in area terrain, behind ruins, or whatever.

Being in Area Terrain has 3 clear and distinct effects.

1) 5+ cover

2) Difficult Terrain

3) If a model goes to ground it gains +2 to its cover saves. The wording means it will apply to all cover saves from any source.

Shrouding says cover saves. Area terrain says cover save.

If you want to apply a +2 go to ground for all cover saves while in area terrain, you also have to assume that the 5+ cover save from area terrain overrides any obscured cover save you're getting due to context and the use of the singular as plural.

There's no way around it.

 Loopy wrote:
Hey, we're either treating this book like a computer program or we're not. If you want to say the +2 to your cover save applies to all cover saves, you have to also insist that the +5 cover save for being in area terrain overrides any obscuring terrain.

That's dumb.

Yes, which is why I have never argued that. You have also not presented any evidence as to why it would "override" your other cover saves, especially given there is no evidence that this is the case in the rules for Area Terain OR elsewhere

here is my interpretation. please correct me if i'm missing the mark.

In ruins, not 25% obscured: 0+
In ruins, 25% obscured: 4+
In area terrain, not 25% obscured: 5+
In area terrain, 25% obscured: 5+
In area terrain containing ruins, not 25% obscured by ruin: 5+
In area terrain containing ruins, 25% obscured by ruin: 4+
In ruins, not 25% obscured, GTG: 0+
In ruins, 25% obscured, GTG: 3+
In area terrain, not 25% obscured, GTG: 3+
In area terrain, 25% obscured, GTG: 3+
In area terrain containing ruins, not 25% obscured by ruin, GTG: 3+
In area terrain containing ruins, 25% obscured by ruin, GTG: 2+

Do these combinations all make sense?

"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether they are 25% obscured."

 Loopy wrote:
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether they are 25% obscured."

Correct.

Nothing about that says that's the only cover save available. At all.

In ruins not 25% obscured GTG; 6+

Aren't ruins also area terrain? That's how I've always seen them played.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Aren't ruins also area terrain? That's how I've always seen them played.

If the ruins have a base and a defined area that each player agreed upon they are area terrain.

A collection of several loose walls without a defined area base count as LOS blocking ruin walls.

I guess you could also have ruined walls with a defined area base still not count as area terrain if both players agreed.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Loopy wrote:
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether they are 25% obscured."

Correct.

Nothing about that says that's the only cover save available. At all.

Oh, I agree, until you start assuming "cover save" means ANY or ALL cover saves. Only the overall +1 gained from going to ground, Stealth, and Shrouded do that. +2 for being in area terrain is contextualized in the Area Terrain section by the use of the singular, just like the passage I quoted only applies to being in area terrain.

 Loopy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Loopy wrote:
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether they are 25% obscured."

Correct.

Nothing about that says that's the only cover save available. At all.

Oh, I agree, until you start assuming "cover save" means ANY or ALL cover saves. Only the overall +1 gained from going to ground, Stealth, and Shrouded do that. +2 for being in area terrain is contextualized in the Area Terrain section by the use of the singular, just like the passage I quoted only applies to being in area terrain.

Um. No.
Models in area terrain get a 5+ save.
Completely separate from that, models that GTG in area terrain get +2 to their cover save instead of +1.

If you have multiple sources of cover saves the area terrain rule doesn't change other sources. And since you can only take one save the GTG rule referring to a single save is correct.

 Loopy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Loopy wrote:
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether they are 25% obscured."

Correct.

Nothing about that says that's the only cover save available. At all.

Oh, I agree, until you start assuming "cover save" means ANY or ALL cover saves. Only the overall +1 gained from going to ground, Stealth, and Shrouded do that. +2 for being in area terrain is contextualized in the Area Terrain section by the use of the singular, just like the passage I quoted only applies to being in area terrain.

Uh ih reading shrouded and stealth they also make reference to cover saves and cover save. Does this mean I get multiple saves and lne save at the same time? Alright enough silliness.

Loopy your argument is based purely on your interpretation of the rules and has no backing in the rules. How many armor, invul, or cover saves can a model make per wound? One! The wording in the sentence works with or without an 's'.

The present or not of s is meaningless in this context as we have no way of telling which save it refers to. Thus it will improve any cover save the model gets.

If you don't have a cover save, IE in open ground, not in area terrain, not 25% obscured, GTG, stealth, and shroud do nothing correct? you have to be at least behind something that confers a 6+ for those to take effect.