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 deviantduck wrote:
If you don't have a cover save, IE in open ground, not in area terrain, not 25% obscured, GTG, stealth, and shroud do nothing correct? you have to be at least behind something that confers a 6+ for those to take effect.

Wrong. The special rule has specific wording that allows it even in the open.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mann - it does not say "+2 to your cover save provided by the area terrain", that has been added in.

Nor does it say “+2 to whatever cover save you’re using”; that’s also been added in, by inference. The rules for Area Terrain specify that they provide a 5+ cover save. They also specify that when you GtG in area, you get +2 to your cover save.

Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

That whole paragraph is bolded to emphasize the most important qualities of area terrain. Read in context, that rule is talking about the cover save conferred by the area terrain. You have to make an inference, a leap of logic, to read the +2 as being applicable to ANY cover save, including one you’re gaining from some other source. And I think that’s a mistaken inference. You’re saying that the Area Terrain rules’ reference to “the model’s cover save” actually means “whatever cover saves the model currently qualifies for/chooses to take”, but I believe that’s an error. I think the rules are actually written to prevent 2+ cover saves from being readily available unless you’ve got some special rule (such as Night Fighting, Stealth, or a Defensive Line) in play.

Permissive rule set and all, the only permission to gain the +2 is under the rules for area terrain. Which means you only gain the benefit while using the area terrains cover save. Listing examples from stealth and shrouded are not relevant as they are USRs and specifically allow for the use of the bonus to be applied not only to themselves but all cover saves. Area terrain does not, its bonus is listed in a single paragraph with no permission for use out side of the area terrains cover save.

 Bausk wrote:
Permissive rule set and all, the only permission to gain the +2 is under the rules for area terrain. Which means you only gain the benefit while using the area terrains cover save. Listing examples from stealth and shrouded are not relevant as they are USRs and specifically allow for the use of the bonus to be applied not only to themselves but all cover saves. Area terrain does not, its bonus is listed in a single paragraph with no permission for use out side of the area terrains cover save.

Wrong, you have permission to gain the +2 if you go to ground in area terrain. You are not told which cover save the +2 applies to, therefore it is not restricted further and can be applied to any cover save the model is eligible for.

Within the context of the three sentence paragraph where the rule appears, and the sentence it appears next to, I think there's good reason to believe the +2 is only meant to apply to the Area Terrain save.

At best it's ambiguous, and as we all know, the best approach in an ambiguous situation is to take the less powerful interpretation.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Permissive rule set and all, the only permission to gain the +2 is under the rules for area terrain. Which means you only gain the benefit while using the area terrains cover save. Listing examples from stealth and shrouded are not relevant as they are USRs and specifically allow for the use of the bonus to be applied not only to themselves but all cover saves. Area terrain does not, its bonus is listed in a single paragraph with no permission for use out side of the area terrains cover save.

Wrong, you have permission to gain the +2 if you go to ground in area terrain. You are not told which cover save the +2 applies to, therefore it is not restricted further and can be applied to any cover save the model is eligible for.

Ah yes, but if you claim cover from the ruin, you are no longer in area terrain's cover but in cover behind the ruin. Which makes you incapable of receiving the benefit of being in area terrain's cover. You have permission to use the best cover save available, not mix cover save's rules.

No, you are still in the Area terrain. That never changes.

The +2 bonus for going to ground is a separate effect from the 5+ cover the Area Terrain gives and as such can be claimed independently.

Area terrain confers a 5+ cover save, and a +2 to your cover save (the 5+) if you go to ground while you're in it.

There is no explicit rule stating that this bonus applies to any other cover save you might happen to qualify for at the time. I think attempting to claim the +2 on some other cover save is claiming an inappropriate advantage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, you are still in the Area terrain. That never changes.

The +2 bonus for going to ground is a separate effect from the 5+ cover the Area Terrain gives and as such can be claimed independently.

You are only permitted to claim one cover save, regardless of how many cover saves you are eligible to use. When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

By your standing If I had a model that was eligible to receive a cover save from a 5+ fuel reserve12" away and the 4+ wall it was standing behind and I made my cover save for the 4+ wall I would also have to roll for the fuel reserve explosion on the model that made its save.

the +2 is not a rule of the Area Terrain cover save, its a rule of Area Terrain. Nothing requires the save to be the Area Terrain save for the +2 to apply, only that you go to ground in area terrain.

 Grey Templar wrote:
the +2 is not a rule of the Area Terrain cover save, its a rule of Area Terrain. Nothing requires the save to be the Area Terrain save for the +2 to apply, only that you go to ground in area terrain.

Again, would you say that in my example on the previous post that I would have to roll for the Fuel Reserve explosion on the model that made its cover save for a wall?

Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

How do you know WHICH cover save this is talking about? How can you determine whether they mean the cover save from area terrain, or whichever cover save the model is using?

How do you know?

You have to make an inference, either way. You have to draw upon the available data and bridge the gap, because the rule doesn't explicitly say "+2 to your area terrain cover save" OR "+2 to any cover save the model can claim".

IMO the placement of the rule in context is indicative that the +2 is only meant to apply to the area terrain cover save.

Looking at the cover save rules in general, one also notes that getting a 2+ cover save, under my interpretation (a very powerful thing, and arguably broken with combined with Daemon of Tzeentch) is something you can only do when a special rule (Shrouded, Stealth, Camo Cloaks, Defensive Line) of some kind is involved. This strikes me as good, functional design. 3+ cover isn't that hard to get with GtG. But 2+ requires a little something more to access. It's not as easy as just being in area + behind a wall or hill.

Further, given than an inference must be made either way, I think the best practice of claiming the less-powerful interpretation is the obvious choice.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

How do you know WHICH cover save this is talking about? How can you determine whether they mean the cover save from area terrain, or whichever cover save the model is using?

How do you know?

You have to make an inference, either way. You have to draw upon the available data and bridge the gap, because the rule doesn't explicitly say "+2 to your area terrain cover save" OR "+2 to any cover save the model can claim".

IMO the placement of the rule in context is indicative that the +2 is only meant to apply to the area terrain cover save.

Looking at the cover save rules in general, one also notes that getting a 2+ cover save, under my interpretation (a very powerful thing, and arguably broken with combined with Daemon of Tzeentch) is something you can only do when a special rule (Shrouded, Stealth, Camo Cloaks, Defensive Line) of some kind is involved. This strikes me as good, functional design. 3+ cover isn't that hard to get with GtG. But 2+ requires a little something more to access. It's not as easy as just being in area + behind a wall or hill.

Further, given than an inference must be made either way, I think the best practice of claiming the less-powerful interpretation is the obvious choice.

Agreed but no inference is needed as you are only permitted to use one cover save, if you combined them or their rules in any way you are not using one cover save but more than one.

And that just isn't so. You can't assume it applies to any and all cover saves because the rules don't tell you that you can do that. Under Shrouding and Stealth, they certainly do tell you to apply the bonuses to all cove saves. Going to ground in area terrain does not.

Clearly the most reasonable conclusion is to leave the +2 in context.

But.... ruins with a defined base area ARE area terrain. So if you're obscured by 25% behind an area terrain ruin, it is 4+ and +2 gtg.

That's why they differentiate between area terrain, ruins, and area terrain ruins.

Deviantduck, you want to review the first two paragraphs on Ruins, on page 98, again, as well as the section on Area terrain on page 91. The rules for Ruins in 6th are clear that they are a specific type of terrain which is very different from area terrain, but that if they have a base, you treat the base (only) as being area terrain.

This is a big change from 5th, where ruins were just a subcategory/type OF area terrain.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Deviantduck, you want to review the first two paragraphs on Ruins, on page 98, again, as well as the section on Area terrain on page 91. The rules for Ruins in 6th are clear that they are a specific type of terrain which is very different from area terrain, but that if they have a base, you treat the base (only) as being area terrain.

This is a big change from 5th, where ruins were just a subcategory/type OF area terrain.

With the wording it has now I am just gonna have to disagree with you until an faq clarifies it further. As it stands the most logical conclusion with the current wording is a 2+ cover save. There is room to interpret it differently but reading it as it I cant argue someone off of a 2+ cover save during a game.

Would you disallow someone to claim a 2+ cover save in that situation?

 Tomb King wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Deviantduck, you want to review the first two paragraphs on Ruins, on page 98, again, as well as the section on Area terrain on page 91. The rules for Ruins in 6th are clear that they are a specific type of terrain which is very different from area terrain, but that if they have a base, you treat the base (only) as being area terrain.

This is a big change from 5th, where ruins were just a subcategory/type OF area terrain.

With the wording it has now I am just gonna have to disagree with you until an faq clarifies it further. As it stands the most logical conclusion with the current wording is a 2+ cover save. There is room to interpret it differently but reading it as it I cant argue someone off of a 2+ cover save during a game.

Would you disallow someone to claim a 2+ cover save in that situation?

Read my example a few posts ago with the 4+ wall and the 5+ Fuel Reserve, would you claim the model that makes it cover save for the wall also has to roll for the fuel reserve explosion?

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

Page 18
Cover Saves "Where this is the case, the model will be entitled to a Cover Save"
Determining Cover Saves "Wounds allocated to that model receive a Cover Save."

Page 19
Models with more than one save "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Yeah I totally made those rules up. So you're saying that you would force the model that made its cover Save on the 4+ Wall would still have to roll for the explosion via the 5+ Fuel Reserve?

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

Page 18
Cover Saves "Where this is the case, the model will be entitled to a Cover Save"
Determining Cover Saves "Wounds allocated to that model receive a Cover Save."

Page 19
Models with more than one save "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Yeah I totally made those rules up. So you're saying that you would force the model that made its cover Save on the 4+ Wall would still have to roll for the explosion via the 5+ Fuel Reserve?

No i said completely ignore my post and post your silly example again.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

Page 18
Cover Saves "Where this is the case, the model will be entitled to a Cover Save"
Determining Cover Saves "Wounds allocated to that model receive a Cover Save."

Page 19
Models with more than one save "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Yeah I totally made those rules up. So you're saying that you would force the model that made its cover Save on the 4+ Wall would still have to roll for the explosion via the 5+ Fuel Reserve?

No i said completely ignore my post and post your silly example again.

I did no such thing. I posted the relevant rules and page numbers from which we only use one cover save and its rules, then re-asked the question that everyone seems to not want to answer as it is exactly the same as claiming the bonus +2 from area terrain on a different cover save. So by your stand point the model that made the cover save would in fact have to roll for the fuel reserve explosion as well because the model is able to claim either cover save.

Let's further this example and say that the model is on the ground level of a ruin, behind a wall and the fuel reserve. Lets use the 'all cover applies' method and see if it works for you. So the model has the option between a 5+ Fuel reserve cover save, a 5+ area terrain cover save and a 4+ wall cover save. So the model takes the best of those three and opts for the 4+ wall cover save. Then to improve the chances goes to ground, by this method receiving a 2+ bonus for being in area terrain. So the model makes the 2+ cover save with ease but then must, as per the rules of the fuel reserve, roll another D6 to see if they are splashed with promethium.

So basically the model, ducks behind a wall in a ruin. Some how gets a better cover save for all the scattered debris that is basically ruined wall. And in this very well concealed and protected area manages to get hit though the wall and alleged debris by the promethium. Or in other words, he increased his chances of being doused in promethium by ducking behind a wall in some ruins....makes complete sense.

But if we actually follow the rules, like those ones I must have made up and somehow managed to quote page numbers and cite rules for, then we only use ONE cover save and its rules. Not cherry pick rules from one save to another.

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

Page 18
Cover Saves "Where this is the case, the model will be entitled to a Cover Save"
Determining Cover Saves "Wounds allocated to that model receive a Cover Save."

Page 19
Models with more than one save "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Yeah I totally made those rules up. So you're saying that you would force the model that made its cover Save on the 4+ Wall would still have to roll for the explosion via the 5+ Fuel Reserve?

No i said completely ignore my post and post your silly example again.

I did no such thing. I posted the relevant rules and page numbers from which we only use one cover save and its rules, then re-asked the question that everyone seems to not want to answer as it is exactly the same as claiming the bonus +2 from area terrain on a different cover save. So by your stand point the model that made the cover save would in fact have to roll for the fuel reserve explosion as well because the model is able to claim either cover save.

Let's further this example and say that the model is on the ground level of a ruin, behind a wall and the fuel reserve. Lets use the 'all cover applies' method and see if it works for you. So the model has the option between a 5+ Fuel reserve cover save, a 5+ area terrain cover save and a 4+ wall cover save. So the model takes the best of those three and opts for the 4+ wall cover save. Then to improve the chances goes to ground, by this method receiving a 2+ bonus for being in area terrain. So the model makes the 2+ cover save with ease but then must, as per the rules of the fuel reserve, roll another D6 to see if they are splashed with promethium.

So basically the model, ducks behind a wall in a ruin. Some how gets a better cover save for all the scattered debris that is basically ruined wall. And in this very well concealed and protected area manages to get hit though the wall and alleged debris by the promethium. Or in other words, he increased his chances of being doused in promethium by ducking behind a wall in some ruins....makes complete sense.

But if we actually follow the rules, like those ones I must have made up and somehow managed to quote page numbers and cite rules for, then we only use ONE cover save and its rules. Not cherry pick rules from one save to another.

Did anyone say you get more then one save??? I think i actually posted i dunno 15 to 20 post ago that you only get one save. So kind of confused what your trying to argue here. You quoted that you are entitled to a cover save. Roger got it. No one is refuting that. Then it appears your arguing some special rules for a fuel reserve? And then your arguing fluff?

As stated before I would settle for we just disagree. To answer your question. I would allow someone to make a 2+ cover save. As for fuel reserve, I have never seen one in any of the hundreds of 40k games I have played. So if someone tells me on a 2+ a rabbit jumps out of it then I would ask to see the rule and probably allow it for the lolz.

Now the question was directed at Mann. Would you allow the 2+ cover save as I do not see enough to refute it?

No, I would not. It would have to come down to a judge call at an event, because the wording seems reasonably clear to me, and the intent quite clear. The rules are designed to prevent 2+ cover saves in the absence of some special rule or a Defensive Line.

Bausk also has a valid point about mixing the rules for different kinds of cover.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

When you claim that cover save you use it's rules and only its rules. If you are not claiming cover from area terrain then you do not use its rules. The bonus for going to ground is listed under Area terrains rule and is only applied to its cover save; It is not a separate rule to area terrain, its rules or its cover save.

The part of the rules you inferred and/or made up ^^^^.

Page 18
Cover Saves "Where this is the case, the model will be entitled to a Cover Save"
Determining Cover Saves "Wounds allocated to that model receive a Cover Save."

Page 19
Models with more than one save "A model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Yeah I totally made those rules up. So you're saying that you would force the model that made its cover Save on the 4+ Wall would still have to roll for the explosion via the 5+ Fuel Reserve?

No i said completely ignore my post and post your silly example again.

I did no such thing. I posted the relevant rules and page numbers from which we only use one cover save and its rules, then re-asked the question that everyone seems to not want to answer as it is exactly the same as claiming the bonus +2 from area terrain on a different cover save. So by your stand point the model that made the cover save would in fact have to roll for the fuel reserve explosion as well because the model is able to claim either cover save.

Let's further this example and say that the model is on the ground level of a ruin, behind a wall and the fuel reserve. Lets use the 'all cover applies' method and see if it works for you. So the model has the option between a 5+ Fuel reserve cover save, a 5+ area terrain cover save and a 4+ wall cover save. So the model takes the best of those three and opts for the 4+ wall cover save. Then to improve the chances goes to ground, by this method receiving a 2+ bonus for being in area terrain. So the model makes the 2+ cover save with ease but then must, as per the rules of the fuel reserve, roll another D6 to see if they are splashed with promethium.

So basically the model, ducks behind a wall in a ruin. Some how gets a better cover save for all the scattered debris that is basically ruined wall. And in this very well concealed and protected area manages to get hit though the wall and alleged debris by the promethium. Or in other words, he increased his chances of being doused in promethium by ducking behind a wall in some ruins....makes complete sense.

But if we actually follow the rules, like those ones I must have made up and somehow managed to quote page numbers and cite rules for, then we only use ONE cover save and its rules. Not cherry pick rules from one save to another.

Did anyone say you get more then one save??? I think i actually posted i dunno 15 to 20 post ago that you only get one save. So kind of confused what your trying to argue here. You quoted that you are entitled to a cover save. Roger got it. No one is refuting that. Then it appears your arguing some special rules for a fuel reserve? And then your arguing fluff?

As stated before I would settle for we just disagree. To answer your question. I would allow someone to make a 2+ cover save. As for fuel reserve, I have never seen one in any of the hundreds of 40k games I have played. So if someone tells me on a 2+ a rabbit jumps out of it then I would ask to see the rule and probably allow it for the lolz.

Now the question was directed at Mann. Would you allow the 2+ cover save as I do not see enough to refute it?

The point being is you are mixing the rules of one save with another. What rules do you use for your models armour save? The save and all associated rules for JUST the armour save you are using. What rules do you use for your invulnerable save? The save and all associated rules for the invulnerable save you are using. What rules don't you use? Any rule that has nothing to do with the save you are using. The same applies to cover saves. For each cover save you are using you only apply the rules for that cover save, not any other save you are capable of taking.

I'm debating effects and rules, perhaps you should read up on what the fuel reserve cover save rules are then you might see my point. You know, rather than brushing rules debates of as 'fluff arguments' and disagreeing without a citation or actual counterpoint. Page 105 of the BRB, that's where the rules for fuel reserve are, seeing as you've not used the rules in 'hundreds' of 6th ed games.

Done discussing it as I have been flagged as breaking site rules.

As for page 105 battlefield debris. I only play in leagues or tournaments usually and play games to prepare for those games. Not to many tournaments that I have seen or participated in support the random terrain beyond the cover saves and/or mysterious terrain/objectives.

For a final note:

Pg 91: Area terrain

No part of that states if models go to ground in area terrain they get 3+ cover save rather then 5+. No part of that says it doesnt stack with other cover saves. It merely states +2 to you cover save. So unless there are rules written in the text that say they cant help another save or something that implies blatantly that it doesn't stack with any other saves then I am afraid you are playing it wrong. Hence why we can agree to disagree because you are not playing the rules that might be poorly written or might be written correctly. Nothing stops this from happening. If you A happens you get +1 cover. If A happens while in B you get +2 cover. There is no other requirement besides being in B to benefit from the +2.

 Tomb King wrote:
Done discussing it as I have been flagged as breaking site rules.

As for page 105 battlefield debris. I only play in leagues or tournaments usually and play games to prepare for those games. Not to many tournaments that I have seen or participated in support the random terrain beyond the cover saves and/or mysterious terrain/objectives.

For a final note:

Pg 91: Area terrain

Spoiler:

is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

No part of that states if models go to ground in area terrain they get 3+ cover save rather then 5+. No part of that says it doesnt stack with other cover saves. It merely states +2 to you cover save. So unless there are rules written in the text that say they cant help another save or something that implies blatantly that it doesn't stack with any other saves then I am afraid you are playing it wrong. Hence why we can agree to disagree because you are not playing the rules that might be poorly written or might be written correctly. Nothing stops this from happening. If you A happens you get +1 cover. If A happens while in B you get +2 cover. There is no other requirement besides being in B to benefit from the +2.

The 'Random' terrain you refer to is pretty much an terrain piece that looks like; Fuel drums, Jerrycans and Xeno equivalents. They are also included in the advanced Cover/Terrain section along with such things as ruins, barricades, forests etc. Reading these terrain/cover types you come to realize that they have rather specific rules that really don't play well with other terrain/cover types. But if your local gaming area only supports basic cover rules and ruins then I understand why you are not acquainted with the advanced terrain rules and how they work, to which I only suggest you read up on them if you intend to discuss them.

As to your final point, that is the rule for the Area Terrain cover save alright. It is not the rules for a Wall though. If you claim a save from a different cover save, you use its rules. And if its rules state you receive a +2 then by all means take it. But if they don't, then you can't turn around and claim the +2 from a different saves rules. As I said in my previous post, you don't claim rules from an invulnerable save on an armour save. You only use the rules that apply to the save you are using, nothing more.

 Bausk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Done discussing it as I have been flagged as breaking site rules.

As for page 105 battlefield debris. I only play in leagues or tournaments usually and play games to prepare for those games. Not to many tournaments that I have seen or participated in support the random terrain beyond the cover saves and/or mysterious terrain/objectives.

For a final note:

Pg 91: Area terrain

Spoiler:

is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.

No part of that states if models go to ground in area terrain they get 3+ cover save rather then 5+. No part of that says it doesnt stack with other cover saves. It merely states +2 to you cover save. So unless there are rules written in the text that say they cant help another save or something that implies blatantly that it doesn't stack with any other saves then I am afraid you are playing it wrong. Hence why we can agree to disagree because you are not playing the rules that might be poorly written or might be written correctly. Nothing stops this from happening. If you A happens you get +1 cover. If A happens while in B you get +2 cover. There is no other requirement besides being in B to benefit from the +2.

The 'Random' terrain you refer to is pretty much an terrain piece that looks like; Fuel drums, Jerrycans and Xeno equivalents. They are also included in the advanced Cover/Terrain section along with such things as ruins, barricades, forests etc. Reading these terrain/cover types you come to realize that they have rather specific rules that really don't play well with other terrain/cover types. But if your local gaming area only supports basic cover rules and ruins then I understand why you are not acquainted with the advanced terrain rules and how they work, to which I only suggest you read up on them if you intend to discuss them.

As to your final point, that is the rule for the Area Terrain cover save alright. It is not the rules for a Wall though. If you claim a save from a different cover save, you use its rules. And if its rules state you receive a +2 then by all means take it. But if they don't, then you can't turn around and claim the +2 from a different saves rules. As I said in my previous post, you don't claim rules from an invulnerable save on an armour save. You only use the rules that apply to the save you are using, nothing more.

Ill ignore yet another jab and keep with the debate. Who knows maybe ill see fuel reserves at the nova invitational. No you don't claim rules for invulnerable saves and apply them to armor saves.

Example: Grimoire of True Names gives a boost of +2 to an invul save. There can be no argument for that to be for armor save. Invul save rules can affect invuls. Armor save rules can affect armor saves. Cover save rules can affect cover saves.

What rule states that if you G2G in area terrain it cant affect your cover save? There isn't a rule that says it cant? The rule actually says and I quote: "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1." With the only qualifying factor being that your in area terrain.

 Tomb King wrote:


Ill ignore yet another jab and keep with the debate. Who knows maybe ill see fuel reserves at the nova invitational. No you don't claim rules for invulnerable saves and apply them to armor saves.

Example: Grimoire of True Names gives a boost of +2 to an invul save. There can be no argument for that to be for armor save. Invul save rules can affect invuls. Armor save rules can affect armor saves. Cover save rules can affect cover saves.

What rule states that if you G2G in area terrain it cant affect your cover save? There isn't a rule that says it cant? The rule actually says and I quote: "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1." With the only qualifying factor being that your in area terrain.

For starters, its a permissive rule set, so I don't need to cite a rule for disallowing an assumption. What I have done however is cited rules that permit you to use one save and that saves rules and numerous examples of why your interpretation simply does not work with in the rule set. Secondly, if you wish to infer anything I've typed out just remember that text does not impart the same context as spoken language. And thirdly, hyperbole is a common tool in text to impart a sense of context; My reference to claiming an armour save is invulnerable is just that and not a literal statement.

Back on the subject at hand however.

Grimoire of True Names is a special rule that applies to the invulnerable save. Much like Stealth, Shrouded and Camo Cloaks apply to cover saves.

Area terrain is a type of terrain with its own rules. Much like a Storm Shield is an Invulnerable save with its own rules.

Can you see the difference now? Each save, regardless of type, is to be taken as it is and not mixed with others of any type (including its own).

If you use a save, any save it does not matter what type, you only use its rules. If you have special rules that can affect those base save rules, then they are applied. As the +2 is only listed in area terrain, the qualification for its use is by using the area terrain cover save and its rules. If you had the Shrouded USR and claimed the Wall as your cover save, then yes 2+ cover save away.

Distinctions between rules and special rules are there for a reason.

I was looking at the wording for Defensive Lines on page 105, and noticed it uses the same kind of phrasing that Area does. That if a model is in cover behind it, and goes to ground, it gets +2 to its cover save.

Say you had a unit of cultists and a unit of Oblits, sheltering in a crater behind an Aegis, and being fired at by some Eldar, who are trying to wipe the Cultists off an objective. The Cultists Go to Ground, getting 2+ cover from a unit of Scatter Laser War Walkers, and sustain only a few casualties. Then Greg Sparks, I mean, The Eldar Player ( ), fires a unit of Shadow Weavers at the Cultists, landing a couple of hits in amongst the Oblits, which also clip some cultists, though the center of the blast is in the Oblit squad, so they'll give cover to the Cultists.

Now, in that situation, do the Cultists get 4+ cover (intervening unit + GtG)?

Or do they get 3+ cover (intervening unit +2 for GtG behind an Aegis)?

For my money, they only get 4+ cover. The Aegis isn't actually the cover save being used against this attack, so the "+2 to its cover save" it confers does not apply.

Same with Area and its +2 for GtG in it. If the Area Terrain save isn't the one being used, the +2 for GtG in Area won't apply to some other cover save.