Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

He's still too many points to be a backup caster. Your list has loads of father in it and he's a big chunk of it. If you think your HElves can afford to go into battle with about 700 wasted points then go for it.

My advice is to not do this. But it is your list if you want to waste 700 points that's your choice.

 FlingitNow wrote:
He's still too many points to be a backup caster. Your list has loads of father in it and he's a big chunk of it. If you think your HElves can afford to go into battle with about 700 wasted points then go for it.

My advice is to not do this. But it is your list if you want to waste 700 points that's your choice.

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
He's still too many points to be a backup caster. Your list has loads of father in it and he's a big chunk of it. If you think your HElves can afford to go into battle with about 700 wasted points then go for it.

My advice is to not do this. But it is your list if you want to waste 700 points that's your choice.

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

This is a classic argument. He is over-costed for what you do in any single phase, because you have flexibility.
A 550 point Vampire Lord can cast very well and fight very well. About as well as a Level 1 vamp lord and a level 4 necromancer.
You pay a lot for flexibility. I'm thinking he is worth it; but I'm not sold on the other guy.

My favorite Lore Master is still armor that gives scout, magic bow, 4+ ward talisman.
You've got a very solid tactical guy, and it's fun to start with your general in the middle of your opponents army.

-Matt

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

Or in other words you're happy to have a 280 point character do not a lot most of the time in order to gain situational advantages.

Cool as I said if you are happy to waste all these points in your list go ahead. If you want to win games my advice is to be efficient.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It isn't a waste, my swordsmasters get a character who can hold up in combat and cast magic. He fits a role in the army that is neither a backup caster, or a primary caster. There will be times when I use him for a phase, and times when I don't use him at all. He is in the list for the flexibility he supplies, which dropping him for a level 2 and a noble will remove.

Or in other words you're happy to have a 280 point character do not a lot most of the time in order to gain situational advantages.

Cool as I said if you are happy to waste all these points in your list go ahead. If you want to win games my advice is to be efficient.

If those situational advantages that pick up ~200 points, then he's worth it.
Let's take a look at what he can do.
Magic missile with up to 3D6 hits at 48" range.
Magic missile with up to 2D6 hits that ignore armor.
+1 S and T for a whole unit.
-D3 M/WS/BS/I, then swap places with another character
Ld contest or wounds with no armor and make power dice.
S6 magic missile with bonus vs daemons/vamps/tombkings
-1 to hit and -1 Ld hex.

I'd say that no single one of these spells would make me want a lore master. But I could see these spells all filling in a gap that the Level 4 doesn't have when he generates spells.
If I really need 2D6 S6 flaming hits on a terrorgheist, you can bet I'll be happy I have a lore master.
If I need to roll an Ld contest against a Ld4 Manticore, I'll be happy I have this guy.
Turn a horde of spear elves into S4 T4 just before they take a charge from Savage Orc Big Uns? Sounds good to me.

Really, it is a lot of flexibility. If it turns out that he does nothing all game, I would be thankful that my other wizard was lucky enough to have the perfect mix of spells and my opponent didn't bring anything that was outside of what the rest of my army could deal with.

Think of it as insurance for your army. Yeah, it is really expensive, unless you use it. Then it's a great deal.

-Matt

I know what the Loremaster does. But to have 280 points for 1 spell isn't worth it. That's why lvl1 wizards are generally a third that cost. If you're looking to use multiple of his spells he ceases to be a secondary caster.

Either way it is a waste to have him AND a lvl4. Particularly if you then have a tertiary caster too and a 335pt combat unit doing nothing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I know what the Loremaster does. But to have 280 points for 1 spell isn't worth it. That's why lvl1 wizards are generally a third that cost. If you're looking to use multiple of his spells he ceases to be a secondary caster.

Either way it is a waste to have him AND a lvl4. Particularly if you then have a tertiary caster too and a 335pt combat unit doing nothing.

I will be using multiple spells, but he won't be a primary caster. And the level 1 mage is in the list to get drain magic/soul quench.

And you may think it is a waste to have him and a level 4, but in a competitive environment, the flexibilty that this allows, is far from a waste. A prime example of this is the WoC matchup, He has enough fast moving things to put enough pressure on my level 4. Who can deal with them at range. If I were to include the Loremaster, I suddenly get access to Shem's, Fireball, and Searing Doom. That is in no way a waste of points. Even against other HE armies, he is a good add on to the army, as he can stack Iceshard.

Oh, and in the current UK competitive meta, Phoenix Guard aren't that good in combat, due to everything important being T4 and having a 1/2+ save.

I'm well aware of the weaknesses of PG doesn't make them an efficient bunker unit. Again I see the benefits in the Loremaster but he's too many points to justify as a secondary caster again with another caster this is just made worse. You are starting the game with the intention of barely using 700 points. That is a waste one that the HE can't afford.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm well aware of the weaknesses of PG doesn't make them an efficient bunker unit. Again I see the benefits in the Loremaster but he's too many points to justify as a secondary caster again with another caster this is just made worse. You are starting the game with the intention of barely using 700 points. That is a waste one that the HE can't afford.

You say he is bad as a secondary caster, but he is a terrible primary caster as well. Due to the fact that he struggles to deal with enemy level 4 dispel attempts. And you again say I will barely use 700 points, which is frankly, untrue. I will be using them a fair bit, arguably enough to justify their costs.

The book of Hoeth evens the score for dispelling against other Lvl4s. But if you don't like him then don't use him. But nearly 400 points on back up wizards is far too much.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The book of Hoeth evens the score for dispelling against other Lvl4s. But if you don't like him then don't use him. But nearly 400 points on back up wizards is far too much.

My level 1 is my backup wizard. He is there to provide buffs to my units and help me deal with things like MC. Which, if I took him out of the list, could virtually have free reign.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
280 points for 3 Ws6 attacks or 70 points for the same. As a back up caster he needs to be your scroll caddy as you're spending 390 points for back up caster and scroll. That almost gets you Teclis. That is hugely inefficient. He is great as a main caster but far too many points as a back up particularly if you're buying a 3rd wizard for a scroll. If you want wyssans and spirit leech make your LvL1 beasts and take another back up mage and save yourself 160 points. You could get a Prince for that! Or Korhil!!!!

The Lore master with s ace because he's a decent fighter and wizard and allows you to save points by taking him instead of 2 characters. As a back up caster he's far too expensive.

You seem to be of the opinion that I am taking him to solely be a backup caster. I will be using him in combat, hence the armour. He is also my general so I get the LD 10 bubble. So I don't want him to also be my scroll caddy. As for the amount of points, if I get a lot of use out of him, which I will, he isn't a waste. There may be ways to get a better character, but with the heavens level 4, he synergises really well. As for Teclis and Korhil, they are fun for what they are, but I would rather take generic characters for their flexibility.

He doesn't have LD 10 unless I'm missing something in your list, which I might be since I've had the book less than a day.

Cheers

He's in a unit with Standard of discipline. He's ld9 as standard.