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So i've decided to play in a fantasy event after a long stint not playing and figured i'd start playing around with warriors. The area where I play (New England) uses lots of ETC restrictions so I hammered out a list using those as guidelines:

Warriors of Chaos: @2400
2398/2400
Lords: 410/600
Demon Prince
Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Armor
Flame Breath
Flight
Charmed Shield
LvL 2
Lore of Death

Heroes: 411/600
Exalted
Mark of Tzeentch
BSB
Halberd
Ward Talisman, +5

Sorcerer
Mark of Tzeentch
LvL 2
Lore of Metal
Disc
Dispel Scroll
Ward Talisman, +6

Core: 732/600
17x Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Shield
Standard, Musician

17x Warriors
Mark of Nurgle
Halberd
Standard

5x Warhounds
5x Warhounds
5x Warhounds

Special: 245/1200
Chimera
Regenerating Flesh

Rare: 600/600
Hellcannon

5x Skullcrushers
E Magic Weapon

Thoughts?

Why no 1+ save against on the Prince?

Why the Tzeentch warriors? Given that Nurgle are more survivable and you're not even using the iron curse icon to maximise survivability from range. Why Tzeentch on the BsB without 3rd eye. Personally Id run him Khorne on Daemonic mount with the Juggers.

Also the Chimera without breath weapon needs plenty of support and with no chariots it becomes an obvious cannon target. Pair with breath and support it with chariots or drop it.

Hellcannon at a Tournament that is likely to see a lot of HElves is probably a bad idea.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why no 1+ save against on the Prince?

Why the Tzeentch warriors? Given that Nurgle are more survivable and you're not even using the iron curse icon to maximise survivability from range. Why Tzeentch on the BsB without 3rd eye. Personally Id run him Khorne on Daemonic mount with the Juggers.

Also the Chimera without breath weapon needs plenty of support and with no chariots it becomes an obvious cannon target. Pair with breath and support it with chariots or drop it.

Hellcannon at a Tournament that is likely to see a lot of HElves is probably a bad idea.

think you should read up on the ETC restrictions.

What are they for chaos?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What are they for chaos?

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=111991

At the last tourney here, it was won by a Woc player using a level 4 tzeentch DP on metal. I think etc hits the nurgle dp build so hard that other god builds are preferable

In ETC format, I'd run the level 2 flying nurgle soul feerer prince with glittering scales. You lose out on the armor save, but outside of WS10 guys (who hit you on 5's) everything hits you on 6's.
The loss of armor isn't a good thing, but with the restrictions on every armies shooting you'll be seeing less shooting threats.

-Matt

As for the Hellcannon point, they rock against HE - just target spears / archers who won't have the banner. Small base, low toughness troops get munched by Hellcannons. Remember that Doomfire is not Flaming, so no extra wards against it.

As for the Tzeentch / Nurgle Warrior debate, Nurgle survive better in CC (except against HE I think), but Tzeentch get to combat far more reliably. I love the blasted standard on them - watch shooty armies weep.

Not having a level 4 is not ideal - you could go for the Tzeentch Prince too and go level 4, drop the extra sorc to a 1 with dispel scroll.

I personally think 4 skullcrushers is enough, since yuo can't get a 5th into B2B reliably, and I think the chimera needs a breath weapon.

Could be nice overall though.

Nurgle warriors just became better against highelves... (mostly swordmasters/whitelions) Thanks to the normal allways strike first they dont get to reroll hits.

Agreed, but against spearmen / archers / PG / chariots, -1 to hit is pretty close to +1 ward save


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will do the maths at some point to work out exactly.

Niteware wrote:
Agreed, but against spearmen / archers / PG / chariots, -1 to hit is pretty close to +1 ward save


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will do the maths at some point to work out exactly.

Nurgle: 5/9ths hit (5+ with reroll) 1/3rd wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 5/6 fail ward = 0.0514 kills per attack
Tzeench: 3/4ths hit, (4+ with re-roll) 1/3rd wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3rds fail ward = 0.0555 kills per attack.
Khorne: 3/4 hits, 1/3rd wound, 1/2 fail armor(no shield) = 0.125 kills per attack.

Nurgle loses 1 chaos warrior per 19.4 attacks.
Tzeench loses 1 chaos warrior per 18 attacks.
Khorne loses 1 per 8 attacks.
Khorne w/shield: 1 per 12 attacks. (no parry due to frenzy)

The point is, it doesn't matter vs S3. T4 3+ and parry (with super parry or -1 to be hit) is so tough, neither is going to do much.
Even vs khorne, the full sized super horde is only killing ~6 guys.
Against nurgle/tzeench a full horde of martial spears are getting 50 attacks and killing 2-3 guys.

But swinging back...
Nurgle/tzeench is .37 kills per attack, with 2 attacks in the front rank (0.74 kills per model in the front rank)
Khorne 2nd hand weapon: .37 kills per attack (4 attacks each) = 1.48 kills from each model in the front rank.
Khorne halberd: .55 kills per attack (3 attacks each) = 1.66 kills from each model in the front rank.
Khrone Great Weapon: as halberd, only striking last.
Khorne extra hand weapon and razor standard: .44 kills per attack or 1.78 per model in the front rank.

So dropping shield off the unit costs you 2 kills or so, but the extra killing power is significant. Surprisingly, 2nd hand weapons and razor standards went fast.

-Matt

Why didn't you do the Maths on the best all round combo of Nurgle + Halberd? Not saying I think it would particularly do well against PG but it is in general the best config for warriors now.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why didn't you do the Maths on the best all round combo of Nurgle + Halberd? Not saying I think it would particularly do well against PG but it is in general the best config for warriors now.

Nurgle isn't always the best.
In an even fight, 18 warriors are going to be facing ~40 elves.
Nurgle hits on 3's, kills on 2's with 18 attacks. Killing 10, or ~90 points.
Khorne does the same, but with 24 attacks killing 13.33 or 120 points.

Elves would get ~36 attacks.
vs Nurgle (5/9 hit, 1/3rd wound, 1/2 fail armor), kills 3.33 or 63 points.
vs khorne (3/4 hit, 1/3rd wound, 1/2 fail armor) kills 4.5 or 85.5 points.

Khrone wins by ~9 kills or 34 points worth of killed models.
Nurgle wins by ~7 kills or 27 points worth of killed models.

So if you're looking at combat res, stripping steadfast or point for point, Khorne is better. They take more losses, but kill faster than they are losing guys.
The same pattern holds true for all match ups, except vs Phoenix guard. Against phoenix guard, all flavor of warriors lose on a point for point match up.
Chosen Khorne warriors with extra hand weapons and razor banner is the most effective vs high elves.
I'd most likely still field a block of nurgle with halberds just to take the focus off the chosen.
So many people are convinced that Nurgle with halberd is best, I would use that as a distraction pulling attention away from the chosen of khorne.

Basically, a 25% increase in kills is usually better than keeping 1 or 2 more warriors alive.

-Matt

So chaos only ever fight High Elves? Your argument seems to be based entirely on fighting HE, where rerolls to hit negate most of Nurgles benefit. Not saying Nurgle is the best in every situation. But overall it is the go to build.

Don't underestimate the joy of Tzeentch warriors with blasted standard. They do slightly less well in CC, but they get to fight. Against shooting heavy armies this is a massive plus.

I am rying them out as a wide screen with Khorne or Nurgle guys following them in. Means you have a lot of points in core, but it is blooming effective core.

Updated based on feedback here and game play:

Daemon Prince (1#, 465 pts)
General; Magic Level x4; Mark of Tzeentch (Daemon); Chaos Armour; Daemonic Flight; Charmed Shield Third Eye of Tzeentch The Lore of Metal

Sorcerer (2#, 195 pts)
Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch, 195 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour)
Disc of Tzeentch (Daemonic Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer)
Dispel Scroll
Talisman of Protection
The Lore of Metal

Exalted Hero (1#, 196 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (Battle Standard Bearer), 196 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armour; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Talisman of Preservation

Chaos Warhounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds, 30 pts

Chaos Warhounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds, 30 pts

Chaos Warhounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds, 30 pts

Chaos Warriors (17#, 343 pts)
17 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle, 343 pts (Standard Bearer Std; Mark of Nurgle; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armour)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame

Chaos Warriors (17#, 314 pts)
17 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch, 314 pts (Standard Bearer Std; Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour; Shield)
1 Standard of Discipline

Chimera (1#, 275 pts)
1 Chimera, 275 pts (Flaming Breath; Regenerating Flesh; Causes Terror; Flaming Attacks; Flyer; Large Target; Regenerate; Scaly Skin; Thunder Stomp)

Chaos Dwarf Hellcannon (4#, 210 pts)
1 Hellcannon, 210 pts (Daemonic Attacks; Monster and Handlers; Causes Terror; DoomFire; Immune to Psychology; Large Target; Move or Fire; Slow to Fire; Unbreakable)
3 Chaos Dwarf Handlers (Hand Weapon)

Skullcrushers of Khorne (4#, 312 pts)
4 Skullcrushers of Khorne, 312 pts (Berserk Rage; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Ensorcelled Weapons; Chaos Armour; Shield; Frenzy)

Im thinking the boost in magic will help considerably.

Do you really need 6 metal spells? What if you're against an army with little armour? Metal is quite a situation al lore. Great for a secondary caster but do you need that much of it?

Th third eye is wasted on the DP as he already gets rerolls - Deamon of Tzeentch. As for magic, I would expect the disc guy to get sniped pretty quick. You could rework him into a nurgle guy in the nurgle block or a death / nurgle unmarked guy in the Tzeentch block.