Update on BoK v Battle Foam - settled out of court - starts on pg 18

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**Azazelx**

It's all very Streisand Effect, and probably hurt Romeo/Battlefoam's business far more than if he'd ignored it. I'm in no rush to buy from him again, and I have 3 BF cases.

**Dysartes**

I'm surprised BoK settled, to be honest, if the depositions supporting BF are as weak as they sound.

**whitedragon**

boyd wrote:
whitedragon wrote:
boyd wrote:
Reading the articles above, I think Battle Foam was never in the wrong. Romeo may have a hot temper when it comes to something he is passionate about, but I haven't met a marine that isn't hot tempered about something he is passionate about (if you ever met my brother and started talking about treating patients you would pray he was your nurse because he would do everything in his power to make sure you got the best care possible as he would argue until he was blue in the face if the doctor wasn't timely or responsive). What you may think of as bad business practices are actually real business practices. If you have an agreement in place you honor it. It doesn't appear that Battle Foam has done anything wrong and by judging the reaction from the community when looking at these forums as evidence, he needed to go to court to settle the matter because he obviously had to get his side of the story out there.

I dunno, all the depositions he posted say pretty much the opposite of what the BoK depositions say, so if anything, the matter is far from settled as those depositions tell a completely different story. Looks like its still a "he said - she said" type of thing to me.

I guess, I think battle foam just looks better because they refuted several of their claims.

They claim he got pissy at one tournament they sponsored. Turns out it was because he had an exclusivity agreement they were going to violate. I think he had the right to get upset about that.

He said he was required to donate $1,000 in prize support, the other guy says he got 30 passes valued at $30 each and 1 gift card for $100. That appears to add up to $1,000. It sounds like the support just wasn't split up in a manner he wanted. I'm sure if there was more communication like , "hey we want your prize support to be one of the big items we give out as a grand prize to each winner not as door prizes." Heck, if I was sponsoring an event that had 9 events, the best thing for my sponsorship is to give out door prizes because it would get more people to my site. It would be in my best interest to do it that way, that or give something to the top 3 players in each event a prize. It sounds like the TO got butt hurt because the communication was poor.

He said someone wasn't provided a life time discount, he showed who the guy was and proved he was in fact getting a life time discount of 30%. So that is another false statement.

So the statement regarding making someone cry cannot be substantiated. I guess we will have to wait and see if battle foam continues to work with them. Even then, who knows what is true or isn't. I could find many plausible reasons why Battle Foam would decide to work with them or not work with them.

As far as th Internet forum goes, it appears to me that you have a couple of people egging him on. I really think both sides are in the wrong but only one side had anything to lose. He was damned if he said anything and damned if he was silent.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Ketara summed it up much nicer than I did, but I think you aren't quite understanding what "substantiated" means.

If one person says they saw someone do something, and then the other person says "No I didn't", that's not substantiated, that's disputed. As such, the arguments are now based on who's word you want to believe, and leaves the waters muddy and unclear. So that being the case, Battlefoam doesn't look "better" in this, unless you just happen to like Romeo more than TastyTaste.

**Steelmage99**

I look at it like this;

What demands were made in the original C&D sent by Battlefoam, and were those demands met?

If not then Battlefoam utterly lost.

Should the article in question remain up, with no public apology from Tastytaste and no consequences on Blood of Kittens continued existence, then it is pretty clear who got the better end of this deal.

One should also keep in mind that the truth of the various claims made by Blood of Kittens is kinda irrelevant.....as long as Tastytaste had trusted sources for his claims (as shown by the statements on his behalf) then he reported the facts known to him in good faith.

Any objections about the truth of those claims are to be directed at the sources of said claims, and only if found to be erroneous can Blood of Kittens be forced to change or remove the article.

**JWhex**

Settling is good, less money for rattlesnakes, er I mean lawyers.

**weeble1000**

Maddermax wrote:
So there was an mutual settlement, made a "joint" donation to BoK's legal defense and the article that sparked it all is still up. Sounds like someone beat Romero about the head about how stupid his suit was.

My read as well. It looks like Romeo got spanked hard and begged to settle out. The underlying message in that joint statement is glaring.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:
The only way it could have ended better is if Romeo just ignored him in the first place.

HAHAHAHA! Exactly! Exalted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dysartes wrote:
I'm surprised BoK settled, to be honest, if the depositions supporting BF are as weak as they sound.

Why not settle? He got everything he wanted. Public affidavits that support his position, a symbolic payment by Romeo, his article still up, and as icing on the cake, a huge amount of damage to Battlefoam's image. There was no reason to not settle. When you get everything you want, and demand that the opposing party lay down and 'do the worm', that's it, really.

That's what this joint statement says, Romeo begged to settle out, Hayden made a series of 'walk over coals/do the worm' demands, Romeo capitulated, but insisted that they at least sort of spin it in a neutral manner in a joint statement. This is LOL town. I can't imagine how pissed Romeo is with this.

That's how seriously you know Battlefoam got trashed. Romeo leaves the post up, recovers no damages from Hayden, drops his lawsuit, and donates money to the opposing counsel's organization. Wow, just wow. I can't imagine Romeo was at all happy with that...at all.

**Maddermax**

Dysartes wrote:
I'm surprised BoK settled, to be honest, if the depositions supporting BF are as weak as they sound.

Even if BoK's case was rock solid, it's still a lot of stress, a lot of disruption (travel and court time) and so on, and the only thing he walk ups have gained, over and above what he has with this settlement, would be a chance to say he 'won' - and that's not worth it compared to real world drawbacks.

**d-usa**

And from the look of it the purpose of BoK filing suit was to force Battlefoam to "put up or shut up" with the threat to sue for defamation.

If the settlement includes anything about "Romeo won't sue me for this post" then he accomplished his mission.

**Enigwolf**

I agree with a lot of the prior statements, and to add on, I think that BoK probably took the more "gentleman" approach to this. With a defense by Romeo that isn't exactly built on a strong foundation, he could've disagreed to an out-of-court settlement and instead just ripped Romeo a new one in full public view.

Essentially, BoK won though.

**TheAuldGrump**

Even with pro bono representation a court case is expensive - lost time, lost support for BoK's site, and bad feelings al 'round.

I know wargamers that have seen Romeo in similar flights of fury, so I know whom I believe.*

But the case was going to hurt both parties.

The Auld Grump

* Those same wargamers claim that the Battlefoam cases are excellent, and possibly the best on the market - they have no problems with his products, whatsoever.

**marv335**

Personally, I won't do business with Battlefoam.
Not because of the court case, but because whenever I've emailed them regarding clarification for making a (big) order, I've been roundly ignored.
If they don't want my business, there are plenty of case companies who do.

**MickeyP2K**

Well personally I'm glad Mr Hayden finally came to his senses (and Romeo to be fair) and I think this is best for the community at large (even though there are those who will bever be happy but I'd suggest they are just 'those guys' and prefer not to be happy anyway).

For me if they can both settle their differences then I'm happy to just move on. Life is just too short to waste more time on this. If you feel this is going to effect your future buying habits then I think you're mad.

Right now back to the business of wargaming and having fun... Good luck to those who prefer to wallow in supposition and bitter regret at the outcome.

**RiTides**

Nice summaries / thoughts, Ketata and weeble! Much appreciated

**recruittons**

I wouldn't call not purchasing from a company run by a less-than-likeable person wallowing in supposition and bitter regret. It's not like my life is worse for not owning Battle Foam, and I'm certainly not unhappy for the fact that I've written off his business as being for me

They make an okay product that has plenty of decent competition. If I decide not to buy because the owner is a meanie, or his website is bad, or his store doesn't take my preferred payment method, or whatever criteria I decide is a requirement for my custom, I'm no more mad than the person who decides that the person in charge of a business shouldn't affect the customer's decision to buy. It's all a matter of perspective and personal decision making process. Human agency is a wonderful thing.

**TheAuldGrump**

recruittons wrote:
I wouldn't call not purchasing from a company run by a less-than-likeable person wallowing in supposition and bitter regret. It's not like my life is worse for not owning Battle Foam, and I'm certainly not unhappy for the fact that I've written off his business as being for me

They make an okay product that has plenty of decent competition. If I decide not to buy because the owner is a meanie, or his website is bad, or his store doesn't take my preferred payment method, or whatever criteria I decide is a requirement for my custom, I'm no more mad than the person who decides that the person in charge of a business shouldn't affect the customer's decision to buy. It's all a matter of perspective and personal decision making process. Human agency is a wonderful thing.

Exactly - I feel no urge to support bad behavior, and there are plenty of options that will not support such shenanigans.

I do have one Mantic Battlefoam case - pretty well made, but until I looked at it I had no idea that it was BF.

KR Multicase or Sabol both look good. I do kind of wish that I had gotten some of the Outrider cases from Reaper during the Bones Kickstarter.

Heck - I will buy standard pistol cases before supporting BF.

Several of my friends that have purchased BF cases in the past have not done so since seeing Romeo having a tantrum at a con.

And... he does not in any way address his misbehavior in the settlement. Even a simple 'I will try to work on my temper, folks' would help.

The Auld Grump

**Janthkin**

We've wandering afield from the topic, folks.'

The rules haven't changed - your opinions of either party, regardless of whether they've changed as a result of the litigation, aren't on-topic.

**Sining**

MickeyP2K wrote:
Well personally I'm glad Mr Hayden finally came to his senses (

Wait, what??

**Lansirill**

Sining wrote:
MickeyP2K wrote:
Well personally I'm glad Mr Hayden finally came to his senses (

Wait, what??

MP2K is very pro-Romeo. Other forum members have stated that he is not Romeo himself, however.

**Agamemnon2**

But are those other forum members, in turn, Romeo?

**Alfndrate**

No because the other forum member that has said Mickey is not romeo is Kronk, and Kronk is most definitely not romeo.

**RiTides**

Glad they resolved this... but looks like Battlefoam was definitely the side getting their arm twisted from the "legal reading in between the lines" people have done. Hopefully, that will make them a bit less trigger happy in the future.

Not unlike a bigger corporation that just had an unfavorable outcome due to throwing their legal weight around without a strong case...

**frozenwastes**

Steelmage99 wrote:I look at it like this;

What demands were made in the original C&D sent by Battlefoam, and were those demands met?

If not then Battlefoam utterly lost.

Not only were none of the demands met, but the end result is Battlefoam providing part of a joint donation to an organization that protects online journalists from exactly this sort of predatory legal action.

**Steelmage99**

Sining wrote:
MickeyP2K wrote:
Well personally I'm glad Mr Hayden finally came to his senses (

Wait, what??

Yeah, I wonder if he even realizes how often his preconceived notions is going to get in his way of experiencing reality.

**kronk**

Alfndrate wrote:
No because the other forum member that has said Mickey is not romeo is Kronk, and Kronk is most definitely not romeo.

This is true. I am more handsome than Romeo.

On topic: Glad this is done and settled and we can get back to playing 40k.

**Dreadclaw69**

JWhex wrote:
Settling is good, less money for rattlesnakes, er I mean lawyers.

At least rattlesnakes give a warning before they strike

I think Ketara & maddermax summed it up best

**Aerethan**

To me I see this as a settlement on BF's part. BoK's blog post is back up afaik.

Battlefoam makes a great product. That much is certain. But it is a disservice to the company to have someone like Romeo running his mouth as he has, and then blowing up anytime someone talks ill of him. I think his own legal counsel looked at the statements that BoK managed to get and realized that regardless of where the case took place it would be a massive uphill battle all over a simple blog post.

If you can't take criticism, retailing to the geek market is the wrong business for you. We are by far the most critical consumers there are.

**carboncopy**

Steelmage99 wrote:
I look at it like this;
What demands were made in the original C&D sent by Battlefoam, and were those demands met?

I agree with this. Look at the original demands of the Cease and Desist and see what was actually accomplished. None of it that I can see.

*Was the article taken down?
No.

*Did Nick pay Romeo the $2,500?
Nope, and it looks like Romeo had to pay the legal organization that helped Nick.

*Did Nick post an affidavit that refutes his article and says he is wrong?
Nope. Instead a "neutral" statement was posted by both sides saying what happened.

What did Romeo get out of this?

I'm guessing a lot of legal fees of his own.

Having to essentially pay Nick's legal fees, in the form of a payment to the legal organization that helped him.

A lot more bad publicity and dirty laundry aired than the original article brought on.

I'm sure a whole lot of wasted time.

He at least got to end the legal battle it before things became worse.

What did Nick get out of this?

Probably some publicity.

Personal costs of his own (not covered by the Pro Bono work)

I'm sure a whole lot of wasted time.

He at least got to end it before more time was wasted

What did the community get from this?

Confirmation that legal bullying sometimes backfires.

Confirmation that the first amendment is hard to overcome.

More confirmation that toys are serious business.

Something to argue about.

Entertainment.

**Enigwolf**

Aerethan wrote:
If you can't take criticism, retailing to the geek market is the wrong business for you. We are by far the most critical consumers there are.

Interestingly enough, from this it does seem that GW certainly has chops, no? We've been criticizing and flaming them for the past decade, and they still continue to take actions that piss us off (price hikes, Khornedozer, etc.) and yet we still keep coming back.

carboncopy wrote:

Entertainment.

This. So this.

Exalted for taking the time to summarize that concluding list.

**Alfndrate**

I miss Mickey, I wanted to see his response more than, "Glad Nick wised up!"*

* - This is a paraphrase

It is a rather interesting turn of events, too bad we'll never really know what Romeo's points were that were being made since he doesn't have to file anything :-\

**Aerethan**

Enigwolf wrote:
Aerethan wrote:
If you can't take criticism, retailing to the geek market is the wrong business for you. We are by far the most critical consumers there are.

Interestingly enough, from this it does seem that GW certainly has chops, no? We've been criticizing and flaming them for the past decade, and they still continue to take actions that piss us off (price hikes, Khornedozer, etc.) and yet we still keep coming back.

carboncopy wrote:

Entertainment.

This. So this. Exalted for taking the time to summarize that concluding list.

The thing with GW is that they don't really have a face. They don't have a PR person that I'm aware of. They had a FB page, and when things got heated instead of blowing up they simply bowed out and closed it. GW might be some faceless corporation, but by being so they avoid public embarrassment being made by some single voice that represents them. They simply do what they do, and don't talk about it.

Battlefoam could learn a thing or two from that.