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So the base of my army is a horde of white lions, and I've got a variety of units to support them. I'm mostly looking for feedback on the possible substitutions and which ones synergize well. I dislike special characters.

ArchMage: level 4, book, 4++
Mage: Dispel Scroll, lvl2
BSB: Noble: BSB, DragonArmor, Shield of Merwyrm, Crown of Command - OR - Sea Helm: BSB, Shield of Merwyrm, Crown of Command

15 Silver Helms: FC, Shields
20 Archers: FC, light armor (cuz that gets me to 625 core points, and allows 3x7 archers+char as a magebunker)

40 White Lions: FC, BotWD
Special Choice: 10 Dragon Princes: FC - OR - 20 Pheonix Guard FC (+bsb for 3x7 stubborn)

Eagle
Eagle
Flame Pheonix - OR - 10 Sisters + Horse Chariot.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Lore of Wizards? Needs to be chosen at list creation.

Might you want sea guard instead of archers? If your spending the you might as well...

What is the purpose of the SeaHelm (other than to sell flying chariots, which the noble could have done) I haven't seen anything in the rules that makes me want to run one of them over a noble.

The reform makes you be able to be aggressive with your death star with no fear of being flanked.

The sea helm allows the unit to reform if/when you get charged. So you can negate flanking charges. Pass a LD test and you're good.

Criticisms:
1.The Level 4 and Level 2 may be a bit excessive. On will have on average 7 power dice, so its not like youre going to get much out of the 6 spells you generate. Drop the level 2.
2. The archers. break them up into 2 units of 10 with a musician in each, drop the light armor as it will usually be pointless. That gives you another deployable which you are lacking somwhat.
3. Lionstar. Deathstars are a crutch, and actually are pretty easy to avoid when playing someone with at least some experience in Fantasy. I dont know about you, but I would be compared to a mentally challenged child if I used the Banner of the World Dragon in my FLGS, cus we aint no Cheesey MotherF*ckers, and I know you arent trying to be known as that kinda guy. I would run the White lions no larger than 20, then drop a few things to bring in both the Phoenix guard and the Dragon Princes. More options!
4. For rare, I would go with the 2 eagles and Phoenix.

We really need to see what Lores you're planning on running on the Mages, it makes a heap of difference for how the list plays.

1. A single level 4 means you have no variety to your magic phase and are very dependant on rolling all good spells. 6-8 spells is about perfect for 8th Ed. Gives you variety and the tools to deal with different situations.
2. Agreed
3. So you're saying in his Lionstar list he shouldn't have a Lionstar? Did that even make sense when you typed it? Yes deathstars have limitations but they are also power houses by definition. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be a 450pt unit limit in most Tournaments and deathstars wouldn't be used...
4. Those are good rares and exactly what he's already said he's got...

I wish everyone would stop calling cheese on the BotWD. The banner itself isn't cheese as it only protects one unit. I agree however that sticking the vast majority of your armies points under it is cheese. I use the BotWD in my army but only to protect 15 swordmasters, It irks that the prophets of doom cry cheese the moment they see it written down in a lists. I wouldn't play in a place that called cheese on me for protecting 15 t3 elves with a banner, especially when the bulk of my core is LSG.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I wish everyone would stop calling cheese on the BotWD. The banner itself isn't cheese as it only protects one unit. I agree however that sticking the vast majority of your armies points under it is cheese. I use the BotWD in my army but only to protect 15 swordmasters, It irks that the prophets of doom cry cheese the moment they see it written down in a lists. I wouldn't play in a place that called cheese on me for protecting 15 t3 elves with a banner, especially when the bulk of my core is LSG.

The problem is, when you do face a daemon army, you can pile all your characters into that unit and laugh. It makes an item that gives a unit protection from enemy characters to an item that gives a unit, and all your characters, protection from an entire army.

If it had a stipulation that characters could not join the unit, I wouldn't care.
But you take a ~300 point unit, then dump 600+ points of characters into it (which you should do if fighting against daemons), and you've got 900+ points that you're opponent isn't going to get while you have lost nothing in effectiveness.

-Matt

While I agree with you I still don't like the instant cries of cheese at the very mention of it. I know daemons have it very hard against this banner but then again it ain't like daemons haven't ever had an unfair edge over anyone.

I post an army list and then forget about it... Thanks to all for your thoughts! I usually play pickup games, if I play daemons I'll offer to swap out BotWD.

I'm working with High Magic on both mages at present, but life seems a natural compliment to a lionstar. I'm open to suggestions. The lvl2 is scroll bearer/extra channel/spell diversity.

Archers: 20 with FC and light armor + 15 silverhelms FC fills my min core exactly. With a char, I've got 7x3 which all shoot and fight thanks to martial prowess. Good bunker, chaff clear-er, and can strip rank bonus as a flanker. 12 + 11 naked archers with musicians gives me more drops for the same points, but probably can't strip ranks on a flank. Worthwhile?

As others have stated, Seahelm BSB is there for the possible pre-combat reform. But a generic noble'd save a few points and have dragon armor. A tossup in my mind.

lionhorde-> cheese -> easily avoided -> not cheese... I'll consider the Martial Prowess version of MSU for a different army list. For this thread, what helps me engage those seeking to avoid the lionstar? Sisters, to help clear chaff/regen/ethereal? A stubborn pheonix Guard 'detachment' to help catch a juicy prize? Dragon Princes/Pheonix, to increase my charge threat radius? Other things I haven't considered? This is not intended as a point-denial/uberbunker variant, I want 40 elves with axes to go and smash face!

Thanks again!

If you're running High Magic, then you want that Level 4 High Magic caster in with the WLs, so you can give them the ward saves. Stealing Matt's tactics from a previous thread, don't run them as a horde but, when you're charged, reform to a horde which should bring your mage out of combat (though I'm not sure if we came to a conclusion if that was legal or not in the thread though...) Either way, you want that Mage in the Lion Bunker.

I really wouldn't go for High on your Level 2 either. I think Shadow would benefit you a lot more. Being able to default to Melkoth's could really help out your WLs. They still hit a lot of stuff on only 4s and, without re-rolls, that's not so good. Melkoth's should help with that. I'd also get a Dispel Scroll on your Level 2. There are some spells that will really mess up your lionstar, and you want to avoid those. You can drop the Ward Save down a bit on the Level 4. He'll be increasing it anyway.

Now that your Level 4 is in the WLs, you could run your Level 2 in the PG, which means you don't need your Archers as a mage bunker. If my calculations, from memory, are correct, you need to spend 250 points, in addition to your Silver Hems, to fill the core tax. Two units, one of 12 and one of 13, Archers would do nicely here, and would be good for eliminating chaff. Reavers are another option that I think you should at least consider as well though.

 FlingitNow wrote:
1. A single level 4 means you have no variety to your magic phase and are very dependant on rolling all good spells. 6-8 spells is about perfect for 8th Ed. Gives you variety and the tools to deal with different situations.
2. Agreed
3. So you're saying in his Lionstar list he shouldn't have a Lionstar? Did that even make sense when you typed it? Yes deathstars have limitations but they are also power houses by definition. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be a 450pt unit limit in most Tournaments and deathstars wouldn't be used...
4. Those are good rares and exactly what he's already said he's got...

Yes, but are those 6-8 spells worth the hundreds of points spent on them? In my opinion level 4s are pushing it for 8th edition. You're still going to have 7 dice to cast with on average, so why not take 4 spell you know you can have a good chance of getting off consistently.

As for the lionstar, yes, i did read that as I wrote it. I'm saying why it's a bad idea.

Yes, but are those 6-8 spells worth the hundreds of points spent on them?

In short yes. Play some games you'll soon realise 4 spells isn't enough.

On both counts the Tournament scene would illustrate the exact opposite of what you've said...

I have played games. 4 spells are quite enough for how few power dice you often have in 8th edition; what is the point in having 8 spells when you have 7 dice to use? I understand your point of having some utility with 6-8 spells, however it is rare that you can use each spell every turn, or would even need to do so. In my opinion, based on the many games of fantasy I have played, that is a waste of points to put into magic that you will probably not use every turn.

For example, consider a High elf list with a level 4, probably High Magic. Rather than take Another Level 4 for the second lore and 4 additional spells, from say, Shadow, I would rather take a unit of at around 15 Swordmasters. I doubt that I will be able to get more than 3 or so spells off in a magic phase, but I do know that the extra unit I have brought in my list can really do some damage and will cause my opponent to put some effort in trying to stop it.

The point I am trying to make is that points put into magic can be more reliably spent elsewhere in an army list.

Please elaborate how the tournament scene is the exact opposite of what I had previously said.

Lots of Death stars are at Tournaments and lots of comp specifically exists to reduce death stars (I.e. 450 point limit).

Also on the Tournament scene most people take between 6-8 spells (many take more). No you won't cast them every turn, not even with 4 spells is that true. But if you have just 4 spells you are likely to roll at least 1 you don't need. That leaves just 3. Your opponent will then know what you're going to cast and know which spell he most needs to stop. Against a good player you can't afford to always give up this information.

2 lvl4s is too much for my taste. But a lvl 4 plus a secondary caster is near mandatory. And in many builds a tertiary caster can be a good thing. Vampires often have more even than that. A solo lvl4 causes so many problems one bad casting roll and magic phase over ditto for dispelling. He can't take an arcane item to help him cast as he's the only one who can carry the scroll...

I understand a level 2 to accompany your level 4, but your opponent will know your most dangerous spells regardless. They know what spells you have and how many dice you have aswell, so its easy to see what you will probably cast.

Deathstars are tactically inferior and just very easy to beat, so I don't see much point in taking them.

 The Shadow wrote:
If you're running High Magic, then you want that Level 4 High Magic caster in with the WLs, so you can give them the ward saves. Stealing Matt's tactics from a previous thread, don't run them as a horde but, when you're charged, reform to a horde which should bring your mage out of combat (though I'm not sure if we came to a conclusion if that was legal or not in the thread though...) Either way, you want that Mage in the Lion Bunker.

I really wouldn't go for High on your Level 2 either. I think Shadow would benefit you a lot more. Being able to default to Melkoth's could really help out your WLs. They still hit a lot of stuff on only 4s and, without re-rolls, that's not so good. Melkoth's should help with that. I'd also get a Dispel Scroll on your Level 2. There are some spells that will really mess up your lionstar, and you want to avoid those. You can drop the Ward Save down a bit on the Level 4. He'll be increasing it anyway.

Now that your Level 4 is in the WLs, you could run your Level 2 in the PG, which means you don't need your Archers as a mage bunker. If my calculations, from memory, are correct, you need to spend 250 points, in addition to your Silver Hems, to fill the core tax. Two units, one of 12 and one of 13, Archers would do nicely here, and would be good for eliminating chaff. Reavers are another option that I think you should at least consider as well though.

Huh, ok, I appreciate your point on the use of the lvl 4 high magic caster. Combined with a Lionstar BotWD that is kinda sickening for casual play. Maybe I'll just remove BotWD from the unit unless I know I'm going up against TFG.

On the level 2, doesn't 6 high magic spells guarantee Hand of Glory on someone (as long as I'm not swappin)? I was figuring the augment would be better than the hex, since my lionstar may be in combat with multiple units. Dispel scroll, check.

Does it change the lvl4 deployment if he uses life instead? Seems like he'd still wanna be in the lions to potentially give them regen. And if the lvl 4 was life, is the level 2 then shadow for guaranteed Melkoth's, life to get more of the spells, or high magic to get the signatures and have +3 to cast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

utulien of the imperium wrote:
1.The Level 4 and Level 2 may be a bit excessive. On will have on average 7 power dice, so its not like youre going to get much out of the 6 spells you generate. Drop the level 2.

Well, I agree I'm usually casting 1-3 spells a phase. For the sake of argument, Lets say I drop the lvl 2 and the book, put the dispel scroll on the lvl4. That frees up 175 points. I could throw in a couple bolt throwers, or a lion chariot and some other goodies. What would you use those points for?

utulien of the imperium wrote:
Yes, but are those 6-8 spells worth the hundreds of points spent on them? In my opinion level 4s are pushing it for 8th edition. You're still going to have 7 dice to cast with on average, so why not take 4 spell you know you can have a good chance of getting off consistently.

The good thing about having more than 4 spells is not the fact that you'll be able to cast more because, like you say, you probably won't. The advantage comes with the flexibility. It's all well and good me having Fiery Convocation, Drain Magic, Walk through Worlds and Tempest and not feeling like I could be casting more spells, however, when your unit is forced into an unfavourable combat, you'll be wishing you had The Withering or Flesh to Stone or something like that, to tip the scales in your favour. That's why the Loremaster is good: he's got a spell for pretty much every occasion.

kooshlord wrote:. Huh, ok, I appreciate your point on the use of the lvl 4 high magic caster. Combined with a Lionstar BotWD that is kinda sickening for casual play. Maybe I'll just remove BotWD from the unit unless I know I'm going up against TFG.

On the level 2, doesn't 6 high magic spells guarantee Hand of Glory on someone (as long as I'm not swappin)? I was figuring the augment would be better than the hex, since my lionstar may be in combat with multiple units. Dispel scroll, check.

Does it change the lvl4 deployment if he uses life instead? Seems like he'd still wanna be in the lions to potentially give them regen. And if the lvl 4 was life, is the level 2 then shadow for guaranteed Melkoth's, life to get more of the spells, or high magic to get the signatures and have +3 to cast?

1) Well, I wasn't aware that it was for casual play. However, from my experience, you can usually still bring tough lists to casual play and, as long as you play fair and have a bit of camaraderie with your opponent, I find you're never being called TFG. If you're worried the game is going too well for you and your opponent's not too happy, you can always make some "mistakes". My advice would be to play the list as best you can. If people react badly to it, tone it down. It's up to you though, at the end of the day.

2) It pretty much does, but I would advise against it for a few reasons. Firstly, the Lore isn't that good, imo, so I certainly wouldn't have 6 levels of Magic casters using it. Secondly, the hex vs augment things is practically the same. Almost always, they'll have the same effect, with the augment winning out in a few situations. However, I'd still take Shadow on a Level 2, for a chance of rolling another great spell (and Shadow's full of them).

3) A Level 4 with Life and a Level 2 with High Magic is actually what I've been running mostly recently. I did try the other way round, but I find this way to be more successful. I also get a lot of success out of swapping Life for Shadow. I tend to run my Level 2 with my scariest unit, to help them survive against all the fire they attract. I stick my Level 4 with a Spearmen unit with the Banner of Discipline, which gives me a good bunker for my mage to support by army from, a general who is now effectively Ld 10 and, finally, it ensures that my scary unit is less of a target for Dwellers and the like.

kooshlord wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

utulien of the imperium wrote:
1.The Level 4 and Level 2 may be a bit excessive. On will have on average 7 power dice, so its not like youre going to get much out of the 6 spells you generate. Drop the level 2.

Well, I agree I'm usually casting 1-3 spells a phase. For the sake of argument, Lets say I drop the lvl 2 and the book, put the dispel scroll on the lvl4. That frees up 175 points. I could throw in a couple bolt throwers, or a lion chariot and some other goodies. What would you use those points for?

I'd still keep the book on the Level 4, but I'm mostly about offence, so it's up to you.

I think it depends on what you're running as your second special choice. If you're going with Phoenix Guard, I'd consider adding a few more bodies to the unit. Either way, Bolt Throwers, Skycutters and Sisters are pretty good unit choices. Not made my mind up on the Lion Chariot yet, though I think it would work well with Phoenix Guard. You could drop 5 points somewhere and get 4 more Phoenix Guard (running 5x5 with BSB) and a Lion Chariot.