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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Also, On spykers...nope IG has 10'000 times more psykers , at lest. they may be weaker one on one...but they simply out power the SM psykers as a group many times over.

What do you base this on?

We don't know how many Sanctioned Psykers the Imperial Guard have, and almost all are far less than a Librarian.

If we are going by the IG codex, a million to 1 in favor of the IG, is being lenient. I do not char if its a alpha level psyker, if its outnumber 20 to 1 it's dead. You simply can only hold back so much and pull out so much power, the tide the IG can throw would down the Librarians plain and simple. They simply could never, ever kill enough to even slow the IG dow before they themselves are killed.

IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol

Seriously though I wonder what effect the fact that the IG view the Astartes as god-like would have on morale. When the IG face a massed group of these God-like beings (to them) and librarians start tearing them apart how many would run? Then the Astartes would launch lighting strikes into those weak spots fully exploiting them maybe routing the whole army. History is full of numerically superior forces losing to much smaller forces due to their belief in the strength/invulnerability of their enemy especially when those enemies are seen as more then human. Which in this case would actually be true.

The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them...the normal Sm are not as scary and are outnumbered. Once you Have A regiment kill a squad or three, they start viewing em like any other deadly target.

there is zero way for SM to win, even killed a million IG for every single Sm lost( wont happen, not even close) you can never win, you only kill at best 1% of the IG.

Hell, they IG can send freaking regiments of banblades after standard Sm squads. Hell they have enough to easily spare 1 tank regiment per Sm.

emptyedens wrote:
IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol

Seriously though I wonder what effect the fact that the IG view the Astartes as god-like would have on morale. When the IG face a massed group of these God-like beings (to them) and librarians start tearing them apart how many would run? Then the Astartes would launch lighting strikes into those weak spots fully exploiting them maybe routing the whole army. History is full of numerically superior forces losing to much smaller forces due to their belief in the strength/invulnerability of their enemy especially when those enemies are seen as more then human. Which in this case would actually be true.

There's a difference between 'numerically superior' and 'so numerous they're uncountable'

There's no weak spot to launch a lightning strike against when a million faces trillions.

 Color Sgt. Kell wrote:
Ok, if every single loyalist space marine chapter gathered all its members, and every imperial guard regiment was combined, who would win in a fight?

No question. The Imperial Guard could win just by crushing the marines under the weight of their bodies, never mind shooting.

And that's not even counting the tanks.

In fact, Ithink it'd be physically impossible to fit all of the Imperial Guard on a single Earth sized planet...

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them...the normal Sm are not as scary and are outnumbered. Once you Have A regiment kill a squad or three, they start viewing em like any other deadly target.

there is zero way for SM to win, even killed a million IG for every single Sm lost( wont happen, not even close) you can never win, you only kill at best 1% of the IG.

Hell, they IG can send freaking regiments of banblades after standard Sm squads. Hell they have enough to easily spare 1 tank regiment per Sm.

In a way they are scarier. Chaos is evil and the IG knows this but the SM are the heros that they have venerated their whole lives. The sons of their God. It would be like firing on a mass of priests. People you have been taught that they are the embodiment of your Gods will. I don't think it would necessarily win the battle for the SM but I think it would make it a lot closer then most are saying. Once a rout starts it has a way of spreading and with how close packed the lines of guard would have to be to bring their power to bear against such a small target and the obvious moral issues you might just have a perfect storm for the IG.

emptyedens wrote:
IG is armed with Flashlights, we have the Holy Bolter. nuff said...lol

As do the Guard. In fact a Guard regiment 50,000 strong would bring more Heavy Bolters & heavy/special weaponry to the fight than a 1,000 Astartes Chapter. There're the heavy/special weapons at Squad level, Heavy/Special Weapon Squads at Platoon level, all of the many heavy bolters on their Chimera transports and on the hulls of the battle tanks... see where this is going? The Guard will bring more Heavy & Special weapons than there are Astartes. Of course I haven't touched on the ordnance & tank/vehicle armaments and so on there. The Astartes would be outgunned, outmanned & outfought.

emptyedens wrote:
People you have been taught that they are the embodiment of your Gods will. I don't think it would necessarily win the battle for the SM but I think it would make it a lot closer then most are saying.

When you are outnumber over a billion to One, just by bodies alone, Psychological advantage never even comes into play.

I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......

I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy

 Traffic Conez wrote:
I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......

I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy

The Earth has a population of, what is it now, 9 billion? Yeah you can fit that many on a planet.

To this, I think the Guard just has too many bodies. Sure the SM have Librarians and things, but there are just too many people.

 Traffic Conez wrote:
I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......

Earth has a population of roughly 6.9 billion human beings. Supposedly could sustain an estimate of 12.4 billion humans. It may be a small world after all, but it's not THAT small.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them.

I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.

Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.

I got an idea for the next thread. Tau versus Orks, but the Orks have to stand still and can't have any meganobs or warbosses to lead them. Oh, and also there aren't any orks. Just gretchin. Discuss.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG fight Chaos space marines and kill them.

I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.

Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.

I got an idea for the next thread. Tau versus Orks, but the Orks have to stand still and can't have any meganobs or warbosses to lead them. Oh, and also there aren't any orks. Just gretchin. Discuss.

Untold millions of Gretchen that release spores as they die, creating (within 6-9 months I believe) more Gretchen and orks. Some orks will undoubtedly lead to becoming nobs. Some will have an affinity for tinkerin. Some will make a gargaunt. Tau cry as they see a machine outshoot them with 30 AP3 shots per turn. They will flee like the slimy spineless fish they are.

 gpfunk wrote:
I'd just like to point out that there is written fluff detailing that even INQUISITORS fear a single Chaos Space Marine as an incredibly able, strong, and vicious opponent. Their armor is covered in horrible symbols that make even these devout servants of the emperor physically ill, and make lesser mortals crawl into the fetal position and beg for death. A normal guardsman would probably crap his pants and screech into the distance until the Commisar got a good bead on him.

Everyone Fears them, even SM's if they have a brain. But some Guardsmen, just like everyone else could deal with seeing one...even more so if they have a long-las. When you are talking whole regiments here, you have men that can and do deal with it.

 gpfunk wrote:

Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.

Only if the IG is denied all support it normally gets. You guys forget, Sm are self contained and self reliant. The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support. If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights, they simply lack the numbers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Because psykers are incredibly rare, psykers with that potential are even more rare, psykers of that potential who can become Marines are rarer still, and even if all those prequisites are met, it takes many years of battle experience to reach that level.

Kine shields also would not keep the Orks or Tyranids from physically entering.

Also, this being a single planet makes the concentration of Librarians far more potent.

then the imperial guard just enter the sheild and destroy the sm's. also something tells me a kine shield wouldnt do jack when a warlord titan decides to squish said libarians to paste. even libarians must bow to the god-machines. Lets put it like this. there are 32,380 hive worlds and on average each hive world has 500,000,000,000 people on it. thats 1 619 000 000 000 000 000 men on the hive worlds alone. thats mind blowing. sms have no chance.

 gpfunk wrote:


Back on topic. I love threads like these. They're basically fan threads or "I want to see this faction win so I am going to gerryrig a situation in which they have an unbeatable advantage." Have the fight on a single planet? IG win, without question. Have the fight over many planets in many systems requiring extensive and fluid travel between battlezones? The Space Marines wipe the floor and take it without trying.

A conservative estimate of the imperial guards strength is 1 regiment per planet, likewise, a conservative estimate of the navy's strength would be IMHO 1 ship per planet. Not all of them cruisers or battleships, but certainly the navy is vast. The astartes by comparison have comparitively few ships, and those they do have are designed for close orbital support rather than to destroy enemy ships. It stands to reason, that rare as they are, the imperial navy probably has more battleships than the space marines have ships. Any way you look at it, be they poster boys or not, the imperial guard and the imperi navy would squish the astartes like a bug if they came to blows

even back before the horus heresy the sm's didnt have enough numbers to defeat the universe and since they have lost about 70% of those numbers. not good

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Only if the IG is denied all support it normally gets. You guys forget, Sm are self contained and self reliant. The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support. If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights, they simply lack the numbers.

I'd say that's a debate. Space Marines pride themselves in being able to redeploy far faster than the Imperial Guard, even if they do have Naval Support. If the Imperial Guard sit on their laurels and let the SM take them a planet at a time, then they absolutely could win. It requires more thought on the part of the SM, but they don't lack good tactical thinkers.

SM don't have a 0% chance of winning. But once again, my main point is that this is essentially a Yay Imperial Guard fan thread. That's my take on it, and I offer it to all within the thread. Any people who actually support the Space Marines in a fight like this should read and take their thoughts elsewhere, as there's no real conversation to be here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Untold millions of Gretchen that release spores as they die, creating (within 6-9 months I believe) more Gretchen and orks. Some orks will undoubtedly lead to becoming nobs. Some will have an affinity for tinkerin. Some will make a gargaunt. Tau cry as they see a machine outshoot them with 30 AP3 shots per turn. They will flee like the slimy spineless fish they are.

Well, let's hope that's true. I do so love the Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

madtankbloke wrote:
A conservative estimate of the imperial guards strength is 1 regiment per planet, likewise, a conservative estimate of the navy's strength would be IMHO 1 ship per planet. Not all of them cruisers or battleships, but certainly the navy is vast. The astartes by comparison have comparitively few ships, and those they do have are designed for close orbital support rather than to destroy enemy ships. It stands to reason, that rare as they are, the imperial navy probably has more battleships than the space marines have ships. Any way you look at it, be they poster boys or not, the imperial guard and the imperi navy would squish the astartes like a bug if they came to blows

SM strength does not lie in numbers, it lies in force concentration. If the IG allow the SM to gain greater force concentration on any one planet, they will lose. If they allow SM local superiority in a system then they've lost. If they allow SM to gain any semblance of force concentration whilst they, themselves are spread out trying to defend every planet equally, they will lose.

In the context of this thread though, it just doesn't matter. This match is one that favors IG in almost every way. It's one in which the greatest ability of the SM is neutered on a grand scale.

What's debatable? Nothing you quoted is really open to debate, its fact.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
What's debatable? Nothing you quoted is really open to debate, its fact.

If you choose to ignore everything I have said in the previous post, I'll simply have to assume you're trolling.

EDIT: I'd also like to note that there is no way to say who would win in this debate as a "fact." Do you know why? Because GW will never sanction a battle like this in canon. You can certainly make an educated guess or estimation, but that's all it is.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
What's debatable? Nothing you quoted is really open to debate, its fact.

If you choose to ignore everything I have said in the previous post, I'll simply have to assume you're trolling.

No, You quoted me saying it was debatable. Let's look at those points

*Sm are self contained and self reliant: Canon fact, they build and maintain their own gear, they recruit and train there own troops. Not up for debate.

*The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support.: Also fact, the admistartum( sp?) does the logistics for the Guard, the Navy does the support role and transport, the whole of the IoM does the gear creation and recruitment. This is also fact.

*If it came down to a real winner takes all fight the Sm have zero chance of ever winning, its just a numbers game plain and simple: How is this even debatable?


*One off super Marines and snowflake marines aside, Sm die by the score in normal fights: Also a fact shown by the codexs and books, the Sm are both super powerful and die by the scores taking the same kinda foes the Guards take.


which of those are even open to debate?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Words and such completely unrelated to my post

Take a long and careful look at the post that I wrote in response to your original words. You have latched on to the word "debatable" without looking at the rest of the post. The rest of the post had nothing to do with any of the points you made being "debatable". My points were completely self contained and about the Space Marine faction in a match up spanning worlds and systems. I raised questions to your points through my own words, which once again you ignored.

I was using the term debatable to qualify the following statement: "The SM have 0 chance of winning." Do you know why that's debatable? Because it's not a numbers game. It's a GW canon game. The Games-Workshop can do anything they want with their intellectual property. They could theoretically say the the entirety of the Imperial Guard were just defeated by Chaos Squats and THAT would be canon fact. You saying the SM have 0 chance of winning is not fact, it's your opinion. That's a simple case of knowing your definitions.

So, once again, ignoring most of the points I made and merely reiterating your own points isn't really doing a whole lot for me. If you want to believe that the Imperial Guard would win in any circumstances against the Space Marines, then that is your choice. Feel free to theory craft all you like on it. It won't make it a fact any more than putting your fingers in your ears and reading off your Uplifting Guardsmen Primer will. Further proves my point that this is an IG Fan Thread.

Now, because I enjoy having a conversation rather than having my posts simply ignored in favor of regurgitating the same old Gak, I'd be happy to talk about the points that you have made.

1. SM are self contained and Self Reliant: Not entirely sure why this is a bad thing. Means they operate a hell of a lot faster since they work internally. Calling the navy is a long, protracted process and the time in travel itself is exacerbated by the size of any Imperial Guard force you wish to deploy. The time frame for an IG force to effectively move and deploy from one theatre of battle to another can take anywhere from two to three weeks on the optimistic side to months on the slow side. By then a Space Marine strike force could have destroyed the defense forces stationed on any one planet and moved on to the next one before new IG troops even set foot on the ground.

2.The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support: Talked about the Navy being slow and inefficient before. This would apply to any space battles in which they would engage. SM fleets can simply maneuver to where a Navy presence is weakest far faster than the opposite. Having a supply chain means nothing if your aggressor is striking faster than you can react. If you have long supply lanes then there are more places that it can be cut. There's more space you have to defend. It's as much of an advantage as a disadvantage.

3. Your third point was already answered above.

4.One off Super Marines and snowflakes aside, SM die by the score in normal fights: And according to codexes and books, Imperial Guard die by the thousand score. According to some books, Space Marines don't die in scores. In fact, in the Grey Knights codex there are several accounts of a single Grey Knight Strike Squad member taking on way above his weight level in Daemons. I shudder to think what that kind of power could do against an entity that is much less formidable.

There's your counter argument. All of these statements are also backed up by fluff as I am sure yours are. There's ample evidence that it wouldn't be a one way contest. Honestly, I've already made my point. I'll leave you all to it.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Words and such completely unrelated to my post

Take a long and careful look at the post that I wrote in response to your original words. You have latched on to the word "debatable" without looking at the rest of the post. The rest of the post had nothing to do with any of the points you made being "debatable". My points were completely self contained and about the Space Marine faction in a match up spanning worlds and systems. I raised questions to your points through my own words, which once again you ignored


I was using the term debatable to qualify the following statement: "The SM have 0 chance of winning." Do you know why that's debatable? Because it's not a numbers game. It's a GW canon game. The Games-Workshop can do anything they want with their intellectual property. They could theoretically say the the entirety of the Imperial Guard were just defeated by Chaos Squats and THAT would be canon fact. You saying the SM have 0 chance of winning is not fact, it's your opinion. That's a simple case of knowing your definitions.

It 100% is a numbers game, canon does not exist in 40k, Sm are both unstoppable gods and die by the dozens to minor foes. The very same thing can be said of the IG, they curb stomp foes or get rolled by minor foes and someone must come to save them, all in which book. what GW does or does not do is irrelevant for the question asked, With canon in 40k non existant, have to fall back on the facts we know and that is hard data on numbers and combat capability.

 gpfunk wrote:

So, once again, ignoring most of the points I made and merely reiterating your own points isn't really doing a whole lot for me. If you want to believe that the Imperial Guard would win in any circumstances against the Space Marines, then that is your choice. Feel free to theory craft all you like on it. It won't make it a fact any more than putting your fingers in your ears and reading off your Uplifting Guardsmen Primer will. Further proves my point that this is an IG Fan Thread.

If you made a point of any kind other than "threads like this are stupid" I can't seem to find it. Hard numbers are hard numbers man, in an all out fight the Sm just do not have the number or firepower to win, it does not matter if its one worrld or a whole sector, they lack the manpower.

 gpfunk wrote:

1. SM are self contained and Self Reliant: Not entirely sure why this is a bad thing. Means they operate a hell of a lot faster since they work internally. Calling the navy is a long, protracted process and the time in travel itself is exacerbated by the size of any Imperial Guard force you wish to deploy. The time frame for an IG force to effectively move and deploy from one theatre of battle to another can take anywhere from two to three weeks on the optimistic side to months on the slow side. By then a Space Marine strike force could have destroyed the defense forces stationed on any one planet and moved on to the next one before new IG troops even set foot on the ground.

The can arrive fast, they can not resupply fast, can not get reinforcements, can not call back out fast or more or less anything. The SM are a strike force, they can't fight an all out war, not any more. They lack the set up. Yes, they can hit and run, its all they can do..what they can't do is fight a prolonged conflict, the IG can, its how they are set up its what they do. Your Sm hit the target, do not lasting harm and leave..the IG replace the loses, in what amounts to days, the Sm takes years to replace a sinlge marine or more for ships and gear, some can't be replaced. The Sm being self reliant is a hindrance in a protracted conflict with a foe that outnumbers them billions to one.

 gpfunk wrote:

2.The IG has the whole of the IoM as its supply chain and the whole of the Navy as its support: Talked about the Navy being slow and inefficient before. This would apply to any space battles in which they would engage. SM fleets can simply maneuver to where a Navy presence is weakest far faster than the opposite. Having a supply chain means nothing if your aggressor is striking faster than you can react. If you have long supply lanes then there are more places that it can be cut. There's more space you have to defend. It's as much of an advantage as a disadvantage.

And once more this does not last for a war, its something they do when they have one single target and can then retire and spends years regearing and rebuilding. The Navy and the IG shurgs at loses that kill chapters as if its a very minor issue. They can replace them without any worry or any real issue. You can't seem to grasp that Hit and run with zero chance to resupply can not win a war on that scale, no chance.

 gpfunk wrote:

4.One off Super Marines and snowflakes aside, SM die by the score in normal fights: And according to codexes and books, Imperial Guard die by the thousand score. According to some books, Space Marines don't die in scores. In fact, in the Grey Knights codex there are several accounts of a single Grey Knight Strike Squad member taking on way above his weight level in Daemons. I shudder to think what that kind of power could do against an entity that is much less formidable.

Ummm dude they do die by the score, by the chapter some times even. You can't grasp the difference in size here. the IG can die by the freaking Millions with zero long term or even sort term effect on this scale, they can always bring in more. even if a SM take out 10'000 IG for every one that does, its a game they can never win. They lack the numbers.If enough guards charge a SM, he is dead, no if and or buts about it, the shere weight will drag him down and they will kill him. It does not matter if its IG, orks, Nids or My little ponies, a large enough force will always kill those who do not have numbers and can't replace loses or supplies.

 gpfunk wrote:

There's your counter argument. All of these statements are also backed up by fluff as I am sure yours are. There's ample evidence that it wouldn't be a one way contest. Honestly, I've already made my point. I'll leave you all to it.

The only point I see is "If Sm do not win you guys are IG fanbois"

Simple.
The Inquistion merly planned this fight and declared exterminatus on the planet they are all on.

Nonono none of you get it. The guardsman have Marbo how many sm chapters have a Marbo? Yeah that's what I thought. >

Wasnt the Kine shield eventually broken by the orbital bombardment? yeah the IG dont have the navy to do that in this battle, but they have probably more baneblades than marines and more LRBTs and Artillery than marines x3

In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.

Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.

There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.

Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Even if you mulitply that to ridiculous levels, say each SM is worth 100, 1000, hell lets say 10,000 guardsmen (as...some are wont to do) to account for Spess Mahreen AWSEOMEPOWER or to account for various force multipliers, the Space Marines are equivalent to 0.015% of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.

In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.

The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.



TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Spoiler:

In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.

Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.

There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.

Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.

In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.

The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.



TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.

Space Marines don't work as Games Workshop describes them. It's implied somewhat throughout their fluff that they could do the job of the Imperial Guard and better. Of course when applying logic that assertion falls apart like wet paper.

Now, what we the fans view them as makes more sense. I, for one, view them as an elite mobile strike force that attacks hard or important targets in support of the Imperial Guard. Using them as line infantry is an incredible waste of their talents. Sure, the Guard could do their job but it would far far more costlier and more time taking. Resources and time are precious to the IoM so this is why the Astartes are needed. Not because they are an uber army but because they are good at doing jobs too delicate for the hammer of the emperor.

So, of course, a straight up fight like the OP suggested is the realm of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines cannot be mobile at all. Now, if it was a contest to see who can kill whose leadership first then the Space marines would win certainly.

TL;DR: You're correct but Space Marines aren't a total waste. It's just that GW is bad at numbers.

The IG would inevitably overwhelm the Astartes, but I think each Space Marines would each have a good amount of kills to their name before falling; they wouldn't go down without a good fight in my opinion.

Just killing off the 'leader' won't work with the Imperial Guard. If you killed their generals then you've still got billions, nay trillions, of men out there armed to the teeth who will still carry on fighting and there are always officers there to replace senior officers who die or get promoted. Actually in terms of sheer numbers, it'd take the Astartes a very, very long time to kill off the Guard's leadership because that would be millions, even billions of officers in this scenario. The officers themselves would outnumber the Astartes, and then there're the Sergeants & any other NCO ranks different Guard regiments have and then there're all those humans who are natural leaders who, if their NCOs & officers were dead, would step forward to lead.

The Guard are not Tyranids or Orks. You can't lop off 'their' head and be done with it, because another head will grow instantly. It'd be far easier for the Guard to destroy the Astartes leadership than vice versa.