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I have seen some very bad recasts on E-bay over the years, But always wonder is there a true way to telling if you are getting the real thing or a forgery.
The tab is usually a dead give away, if it is missing or molded poorly, I think would be one way to detect. The other way would to buy only figures still in blister.
But what about items like unreleased figures that make it to the market every once in a while, I wouldn't think they would come in a blister..
Short of watching the dealer to make sure he isn't selling the same rare item three times a month..

Is there a true way of knowing you got the real deal??

What is it made of? Sometimes you cant tell till you have it in hand but those silly fake sellers sometimes tell you!! Example- LE DA Captain from a few years ago that was in the big army box was a metal mini. He had a combi plasma and a large banner. He was metal. If you find one in resin...FAKE!! Many of the older GamesDay mini were also metal so resin models of those are also fakes.

Anything made of resin that GW don't sell as resin is a fake. If you buy something pre-primed (to save you time, they usually say), use a file to scrape away the primer, it's generally resin.

Here's a quick guide:

Original:


Fake:

Well, to an untrained eye there isn't really anything obvious but there are a few things you should be wary of:

Is the model basecoated/sprayed? Quite often, unscrupulous Ebay sellers will spray a recast black (pretending it has been 'basecoated') in order to disguise the resin colour. This is because the resin that they use often doesn't match FW resin, for example, and the colour is a dead give-away.

Check obvious things, like casting detail. Recasts are often produced by creating a new mould from an existing model. Whilst this is a valid technique, it sometimes produces a recast that is 'softer' in detail than the original, perhaps with detailed missing or blurred. Look for obvious signs of miscast.

Look at the overall quality of the cast - does it look professional? Whilst some recasters are very good, some aren't so good and try to churn out as many recasts as possible to maximise profit. This has the effect of sloppily produced models.

Where is the seller from? It is a sweeping generalisation but be wary of sellers from Russian/Eastern Europe and China in particular as this is where many recasters are based. Whilst not all sellers are recasters, the chances are higher so check up.

Combined with the above - what are they selling? If it is a Chinese seller selling FW Death Korps, for example, I would suggest they are almost certain to be recasts.

If you are at all unsure, buy direct from FW (if buying FW). Since they don't offer discounts to online retailers, you aren't going to find a webstore selling them cheaply - unless they are secondhand. So view anyone selling FW at deep discount as fairly suspicious.

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:Unreleased_-_Imperial_Cadian_General.jpg

Something like this figure, Years ago I thought about buying it, but didn't at the last moment because I had a bad feeling about the seller.

Is there a service out there that actually authenticate this stuff... Comics have all kinds of graders and they are less likely to have forgers.

 Genoside07 wrote:
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:Unreleased_-_Imperial_Cadian_General.jpg

Something like this figure, Years ago I thought about buying it, but didn't at the last moment because I had a bad feeling about the seller.

Is there a service out there that actually authenticate this stuff... Comics have all kinds of graders and they are less likely to have forgers.

You had some formatting issues

Is the model basecoated/sprayed? Quite often, unscrupulous Ebay sellers will spray a recast black (pretending it has been 'basecoated') in order to disguise the resin colour. This is because the resin that they use often doesn't match FW resin, for example, and the colour is a dead give-away.

I have a bunch of FW items and while they are pretty consistent in their resin color I have light grey to dark grey to an almost brown. Yes they all came direct from FW. So resin color is not a great indicator.

Check obvious things, like casting detail. Recasts are often produced by creating a new mould from an existing model. Whilst this is a valid technique, it sometimes produces a recast that is 'softer' in detail than the original, perhaps with detailed missing or blurred. Look for obvious signs of miscast.

I've pulled minis out of GW blisters with double mold lines.

Look at the overall quality of the cast - does it look professional? Whilst some recasters are very good, some aren't so good and try to churn out as many recasts as possible to maximise profit. This has the effect of sloppily produced models.

I've seen plenty mismolded figures in metal and unless your living under a rock we have all seen poor finecast casts.

Where is the seller from? It is a sweeping generalisation but be wary of sellers from Russian/Eastern Europe and China in particular as this is where many recasters are based. Whilst not all sellers are recasters, the chances are higher so check up.

Spot on. Funny though how Russian recasts are better quality than FW casts.

Combined with the above - what are they selling? If it is a Chinese seller selling FW Death Korps, for example, I would suggest they are almost certain to be recasts.

I'm not sure if it's true but word was FW had some items cast in China. If the Chinese think they can make a buck when you order 100k they make 1 million and sell them. So could be they are from same mold just cut out the middle man, Jervis.

If you are at all unsure, buy direct from FW (if buying FW). Since they don't offer discounts to online retailers, you aren't going to find a webstore selling them cheaply - unless they are secondhand. So view anyone selling FW at deep discount as fairly suspicious.

A decent recast works just a good as a regular one.

Flame away.

Just wait until someone gets a code to create any of them using a 3D printer!

Pretty much that, I want to know how model making companies will survive with those things out.

Dude I am hungry, guess I'll change the cartridge to make some pizza. (NASA is creating a food printer)

Can it make gyros?

Customer buys direct from company company sends code 8 # of times to customer or prices drop through the floor as shipping costs decrease.
Gw has manufactoring sites close to major markests send codes electronicly, multiple printers produce then package and ship.
They have already started with E codices.

If its too cheap to be real, or the seller seems to have a lot of old minis in perfect condition, red flags should go up.

Any Chinese shop thats willing to ship abroad is more than likely selling fakes...seriously the real ones are slightly cheaper here...but not that cheap.
(earlier when i tried to contact legit sellers in English or broken Chinese they would advise me to buy from my own country since shipping would be a hassle and a waste)
there are about 3 major fake shops on taobao. cant say about Hong Kong but mainland...probably best to buy from your own country.

for me its the smell...I hit up some bits on taobao a couple years ago thinking they were pretty cheap...
my Chinese vocabulary at the time was not able to recognize the characters for resin (树脂)
so there goes my right to call in a complaint against the seller...really i was only out 2 dollars but...still.

When I got the bits the color was more of a fortress grey rather than a codex grey...very strange at first. once i used my file and hobby knife to file trim down the mold lines there was a very distinct chemical smell.
As far as detecting from pictures, if they have base coat nowadays they are damn near impossible to tell as they are very good at copying detail.
I suppose if you looked closely at the detail of an army that has plenty more detail than the one i was looking at (Tau) you may find some oddities but everything I saw was flawless to the unsuspecting eye at least.


Keep in mind a lot of Chinese shops will also take a photo of the real thing and send you the copy they deem 'identical'
I know of some that try to mask the true authenticity for the foreign market..
They are pretty straight forward about it with the domestic market making sure everything is labelled as resin or metal cast...

I believe it for the most part is to prevent people filing complaints against them with the sales website admin...
As long as they are making it clear the product isnt genuine and you buy it there is no deception.

This is on a Chinese shopping site similar to Ebay...I dont know much of their operations on Ebay but better safe than sorry..

once i saw a bit that my mate had bought online they had actually copied the exact color of Citadels plastic, no smell that i can remember and the only factor that led me to believe it was fake was that it would not adhere with normal modeling cement. but rather superglue.

Anyways just my 2 cents, I'm not speaking from fact that i can prove, only speaking from experience with a couple educated assumptions mixed in
since I own a taobao shop myself I know the ground rules for avoiding valid customer complaints.

filbert wrote:Is the model basecoated/sprayed? Quite often, unscrupulous Ebay sellers will spray a recast black (pretending it has been 'basecoated') in order to disguise the resin colour. This is because the resin that they use often doesn't match FW resin, for example, and the colour is a dead give-away.

Not True. I will admit that stuff sold over the last few years from FW are all a uniform Grey, but prior to that they range from creams, with hints of brown, grey, green in them. I can take a picture of a load of Epic Terrain I bought direct from FW (and the receipt) which clearly shows at least 4 different colours. I've asked about this at a share holders meeting. Apparently, its down the to amount of adhesive used in the resin that gives off the different colours. Until FW moved all its production under 1 roof, they had 3 different companies in the UK casting stuff for them and for a period of time used a company in China.

In addition, in the early days (showing my age now) the resin was different. I have the original set of Bunker Defence lines (all long OOP now) and they are made of a really brittle substance, if you drill it, it cracks, similar to plaster, but a much harder compound.

The point is, unless its a new release, then the colour cannot be used to detect a fake. Its only in the last few years that production has moved under 1 roof and therefore the resin mix is uniform, to give a uniform colour.

 TheSecretSquig wrote:

filbert wrote:Is the model basecoated/sprayed? Quite often, unscrupulous Ebay sellers will spray a recast black (pretending it has been 'basecoated') in order to disguise the resin colour. This is because the resin that they use often doesn't match FW resin, for example, and the colour is a dead give-away.

Not True. I will admit that stuff sold over the last few years from FW are all a uniform Grey, but prior to that they range from creams, with hints of brown, grey, green in them. I can take a picture of a load of Epic Terrain I bought direct from FW (and the receipt) which clearly shows at least 4 different colours. I've asked about this at a share holders meeting. Apparently, its down the to amount of adhesive used in the resin that gives off the different colours. Until FW moved all its production under 1 roof, they had 3 different companies in the UK casting stuff for them and for a period of time used a company in China.

In addition, in the early days (showing my age now) the resin was different. I have the original set of Bunker Defence lines (all long OOP now) and they are made of a really brittle substance, if you drill it, it cracks, similar to plaster, but a much harder compound.

The point is, unless its a new release, then the colour cannot be used to detect a fake. Its only in the last few years that production has moved under 1 roof and therefore the resin mix is uniform, to give a uniform colour.

Well, it is true, as you allude to in your last sentence. It's only one tool and is admittedly not a reliable method, but it is one of those things that should raise a red flag; if the model is basecoated then quite often there is an ulterior motive for it. A notorious recaster in the uK who used to ply his recasts on many websites and on Ebay, Mr Tony Heath aka SBU and many other aliases, used to use this method. In fact, it was one of the ways to track down his aliases as it became an MO. The type of resin he used was significantly different in colour to the stuff that other manufacturers were using. He was selling knocked off Armorcast copies and FW Titans through Ebay and they were always sold basecoated to disguise this. Also, the basecoat was used to disguise minor recast flaws and imperfections as black tends to mask those things.

It is only one of the many possible methods or signifiers of a recast and it will not apply in all cases or even be useful in all cases, like the rest of the tips given here, but it is something to be aware of. Ultimately, the only way you will ever know if something is fake is if you take it back to the manufacturer and ask them to validate it. I know GW and FW used to do this; if in doubt, you could send them suspected knockoffs and they would send you the genuine model in return but I'm not sure if they have this policy now.

When looking for rogue trader 40k or third edition fantasy models I use a couple of techniques that work for me.

1 Look at many, many listings. You can get a sense of the things that people had in a collection, found in a drawer and are unloading. A listing of several minis that are poorly painted or showing wear on the paint jobs is a good sign.

2 Poorly stripped models that were obviously painted and not just base coated

3 Commonality, if you look at listings over a period of many months you can get a sense of what really is rare and what is actually fairly common

4 Multiple listings from one well painted collection are a good sign, especially if the paint job matches what was the usual scheme or techniques for the era

5 Check the sold listings, if someone is cloning a rare fig they will probably have sold multiple copies of it and that can be determined sometimes

6 If it is one of the limited edition models or especially if it is claimed as an unreleased version I dont go near it.

7 If it is a really old miniature such as GW preslotta base it will have a patina that distinguishes it from the white metal used now.

SAFETY WARNING ABOUT CHINESE RECASTS

A major health and safety issue with the Chinese recasts is that you have NO idea what kind of organic solvents or other dangerous petrochemicals have been used as a cost cutting measure. Even the people casting this stuff up probably dont realize some of the risks because nothing like OSHA or the EPA exists in China.

The Chinese cant even guarantee the safety of milk or infant formulas for crying out loud. I have a very strong background in chemistry and biochemistry but I am not trying to be an alarmist. You just need to be aware that there is a real potential hazard when buying things made out of resin from a country and cottage industry were health, safety and environmental regulations are nonexistant.

Many, many chemicals that could be contaminants of resin casts in China are ESPECIALLY dangerous if you have infants, young children or a pregnancy in the household! This latter point cannot be over emphasized.

Really though, if you wash models before handling and use proper precautions before either sawing or filing/sanding (cutting/clipping not an issue) there's not much in any kind of resin model which will present much danger. And that's during modelling - which is the risky part. After spraypaining and sealing them they really, really won't have a different effect from 'regular' resin models.

Besides, the stuff used in the kind of resin manufactured through the 'larger' channels isn't exactly all too pretty either - I know for sure I'm not even going anywhere near opening either of the component bottles without proper breathing gear, really. And that's the basic stuff, pretty much.

Could you elaborate on in which way a bit of solvent would make those things much worse? I mean, the stuff already contains a component which has multiple benzene and cyanate groups, and the most likely (and pretty cheap, if I'm not mistaken) solvent to be used for thinning the resin down a bit is going to be isopropanol, if I have my information straight. The latter hardly compares to the former, as far as 'being generally harmful' is concerned, right?

If you see one single seller continually selling a "rare, OOP" item in large quantities it's pretty much guaranteed to be a recaster.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you see one single seller continually selling a "rare, OOP" item in large quantities it's pretty much guaranteed to be a recaster.

This. Also, if they're selling a full inventory of forgeworld models below retail price (IOW, operating as a store, not just some random person getting rid of a few things they don't want anymore) they're a recaster. Forgeworld does not offer a discount to retailers, so anyone selling legitimate models below retail price is taking a loss on the sale. And since it's hard to operate a business when every sale loses money it's pretty much guaranteed that they're recasting it all.

One way to detect such forgeries is through an example here from this ebay store:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Miniatures-War-Games-/16486/i.html?_ipg=&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ssn=pusisi777

Prices are very low for FW standards and comes from an exporting country not known for its large wargame community.

 WarOne wrote:
One way to detect such forgeries is through an example here from this ebay store:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Miniatures-War-Games-/16486/i.html?_ipg=&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ssn=pusisi777

Prices are very low for FW standards and comes from an exporting country not known for its large wargame community.

You can also tell it's a recast because of the subtle details of the description:

Note:This kit is supplied unpainted and requires assembly.This product is an imitation

Sadly I hear that you can tell the difference because most of the forgeries are actually better quality

 Bolognesus wrote:
Really though, if you wash models before handling and use proper precautions before either sawing or filing/sanding (cutting/clipping not an issue) there's not much in any kind of resin model which will present much danger. And that's during modelling - which is the risky part. After spraypaining and sealing them they really, really won't have a different effect from 'regular' resin models.

Besides, the stuff used in the kind of resin manufactured through the 'larger' channels isn't exactly all too pretty either - I know for sure I'm not even going anywhere near opening either of the component bottles without proper breathing gear, really. And that's the basic stuff, pretty much.

Could you elaborate on in which way a bit of solvent would make those things much worse? I mean, the stuff already contains a component which has multiple benzene and cyanate groups, and the most likely (and pretty cheap, if I'm not mistaken) solvent to be used for thinning the resin down a bit is going to be isopropanol, if I have my information straight. The latter hardly compares to the former, as far as 'being generally harmful' is concerned, right?

Well you dont know for example that they are using isopropanol, maybe the caster "obtained" some other solvent by "chance". To put it bluntly maybe they had an opportunity to get something cheap but dangerous off the black market. They may not even realize the hazard themselves.

The problem is that the Chinese are known for taking shortcuts and are completely unregulated. There are literally thousands of chemicals that could be manufactured alongside the resin components and cross contaminate them through poor manufacturing processes. From melamine in milk to cadmium in children's jewelry you just cannot second guess the kind of pollutants that make their way into these back alley products.

The idea that after you have sprayed some sealer on a resin miniature that may have some harmful contaminant, and you are protected is pure internet BS. Anyone trained in the disposal of hazardous waste would find this incredible.

Any place that is manufacturing resins is probably also producing a lot of other industrial compounds that are very hazardous. So you not only have the things that you mentioned which are harmful but many other possible unknown contaminants. Especialy during embryonic development, industrial contaminants in tiny quantities can have a huge impact that would not affect an adult.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
One way to detect such forgeries is through an example here from this ebay store:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Miniatures-War-Games-/16486/i.html?_ipg=&_from=&_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ssn=pusisi777

Prices are very low for FW standards and comes from an exporting country not known for its large wargame community.

LMAO at the Finecast Heldrake. In some descriptions the lister plainly states the product is an "imitation".

It's quite easy to detect forged Forge World.
1. Is the shipping cost reasonable? If so, it's fake.
2. Is the cost reasonable compared to similar plastic models produced by Games Workshop? If so, it's fake.
3. Does the product arrive with a minimum of mold slips, broken pieces, pieces warped into wave shapes, giant chunks of useless resin, missing pieces, and badly photocopied instructions that are missing pages? If so, probably fake.
4. Is the product shipped with padding and not just thrown into a plastic bag so you sweat as you remove every piece and check for damage? Totally fake.

But a bit more seriously, if you are seriously concerned about this then the other posters have hit the nail on the head:
1. Assume ANY metal or resin model from Russia or China is a copy (especially on Ebay). Also, any website that has "discount" Forge World.
2. If the color of the resin is a tan color and very hard like plastic you've got a fake (or a very old and weird Forge World cast from back when they outsourced).

TzeentchNet wrote:
It's quite easy to detect forged Forge World.
1. Is the shipping cost reasonable? If so, it's fake.
2. Is the cost reasonable compared to similar plastic models produced by Games Workshop? If so, it's fake.
3. Does the product arrive with a minimum of mold slips, broken pieces, pieces warped into wave shapes, giant chunks of useless resin, missing pieces, and badly photocopied instructions that are missing pages? If so, probably fake.
4. Is the product shipped with padding and not just thrown into a plastic bag so you sweat as you remove every piece and check for damage? Totally fake.

).

Sadly, a lot of this is true.

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about recasts of long OOP models? Just as morally unsound, or more of a grey area?

 cincydooley wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
It's quite easy to detect forged Forge World.
1. Is the shipping cost reasonable? If so, it's fake.
2. Is the cost reasonable compared to similar plastic models produced by Games Workshop? If so, it's fake.
3. Does the product arrive with a minimum of mold slips, broken pieces, pieces warped into wave shapes, giant chunks of useless resin, missing pieces, and badly photocopied instructions that are missing pages? If so, probably fake.
4. Is the product shipped with padding and not just thrown into a plastic bag so you sweat as you remove every piece and check for damage? Totally fake.

).

Sadly, a lot of this is true.

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about recasts of long OOP models? Just as morally unsound, or more of a grey area?

Whether it is OOP or not has no bearing on the ownership of intellectual property.

If the model is warped, full of bubbles, with bits broken off it and massive amounts of flash...

.. then you can be certain that it is an official, genuine Citadel Finecast product.

If however it is extremely well-cast in resin with sharp detail and no mould lines, then it's probably a Chinese recaster.

 cincydooley wrote:

Sadly, a lot of this is true.

Out of curiosity, how does everyone feel about recasts of long OOP models? Just as morally unsound, or more of a grey area?

It doesn't bother me that much. Yes I know it's still not legal, but GW have ceased production and destroyed the moulds for many older figures. Some figures were only available for ludicrously short periods of time before being discontinued. Some of the things in the Specialist Games range were so poorly documented, such as only being officially being made available in tiny leaflets and catalogues for a matter of months, that there's debate as to what was actually released in some cases. The Inquisitor Genestealer was only available for 3 months, the Imperial Civilians or Crimelord are almost unheard of. Now in my mind, GW sold people a game and failed to offer much of a product line to go with it, they could have, but for whatever reason just let it die and didn't even try to make anything of what was released. These go for very high amounts on eBay.

I don't mind these being recast myself. I think it's wrong to recast and pass them off as the real thing to trick people into paying top collector's prices, but I think that it's the only way many of us will even be able to get them as they so rarely appear for sale and are unobtainable, entirely due to the way GW handled the range.

If an individual wants to recast their own stuff for personal use I'm not bothered by it (even though it may be technically illegal depending on jurisdiction)

but the moment they pass on these casts (or even worse sell them) that's when my personal line is crossed.

if somebody is desperate enough to own something they can go second hand with the cost implications that come with buying rare desirable item (sad but true, sometimes we can't have everything that we want)