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The Ctan sought to eradiate all other ilfe, it seems that the nids are the perfect weapon to do so.

It makes sense that a race as ancient and advanced as them didn't just exist in one galaxy so the nids could have been a way for them to clear out other galaxies.

So prior to awakening in "our" galaxy, they call for their creation to come lay waste to any life in preparation for the full necron awakening. It's why the genestealers seem to appear out of nowhere, because they were re-created by the necrons to sow confusion and to call the hivemind. The resulting chaos would make it easier for the necrons to awake without a unified opposition.

It's the real reason that nids avoid necrons, rather than simply a lack of nutrients.

Anything in the fluff to contradict this?

The fact that the C'Tan aren't really opposed to life and so have no purpose to creating the Tyranids to do this sort of thing is the biggest problem this theory has.

C'Tan are star-eating xeno creatures that existed before the physical laws of the universe were fully established. The Necrontyr considered them gods, but they are not. The C'Tan find the taste of the bio-energy of living creatures to be better than the energy of stars, and so they fed off the Necrons.

They went to war with the Old Ones, beings of psychic power and masters of the Warp, which they could not understand, could not enter and despised. They, however, started losing, badly, until they shared the secrets of Bio-Transference and technology with the Necrontyr, creating the Necrons.

Combined, they destroyed most of the Old Ones, and then the Necrons turned on the C'Tan, shattering them into shards, imprisoning many. Some were destroyed so completely that they have yet to reform into any usable form.

Then the Silent King went sailing out into deep space, encountered the Tyranid, and turned around and came back. He only recently returned (relatively speaking).

Okay, so replace C'Tan with the necrons themselves.

 Psienesis wrote:
They went to war with the Old Ones, beings of psychic power and masters of the Warp, which they could not understand, could not enter and despised. They, however, started losing, badly, until they shared the secrets of Bio-Transference and technology with the Necrontyr, creating the Necrons.

That isn't true, in either codex.

The only thing you could spin to support that train of thought is reliance on the word of a being whose very namesake makes said word heavily suspect, and even then you'd still be off. The Deceiver claimed that the Old Ones had once warred with and defeated the C'tan, but the structure of your post implies you believe that they warred with the Old Ones alongside the Necrontyr, which is not true. They applied biotransference to the Necrontyr, then went to war with the Old Ones. And the Old Ones were crushed in the ensuing conflict.

Also, the Necrontyr had superior technology to the Old Ones.

Did C'Tan create the Tyranids? => NO.

Its really that simple.

 1hadhq wrote:
Did C'Tan create the Tyranids? => NO.

Its really that simple.

Pretty much this.

Sheer time is against it. Tyranids would have been half way here from the last galaxy while the War in Heaven was going on, or at the least still munching on the last galaxy.

Whilst there is a lot of reasoning against the theory, there is a quote in the Necron codex by the Silent King. Part of it references both the Deceiver, the Nightbringer and also "Iash'Uddra the Endless Swarm" which, in my mind, hints at it being the Outsider who perhaps had something to do with the Tyranids.

However, there is still the Hive Mind's psychic powers which would contradict any such notions of the Outsider creating the Tyranids and/or being the Hive Mind.

 Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Whilst there is a lot of reasoning against the theory, there is a quote in the Necron codex by the Silent King. Part of it references both the Deceiver, the Nightbringer and also "Iash'Uddra the Endless Swarm" which, in my mind, hints at it being the Outsider who perhaps had something to do with the Tyranids.

However, there is still the Hive Mind's psychic powers which would contradict any such notions of the Outsider creating the Tyranids and/or being the Hive Mind.

I thought Iash'Uddra was the name of another C'tan?

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Whilst there is a lot of reasoning against the theory, there is a quote in the Necron codex by the Silent King. Part of it references both the Deceiver, the Nightbringer and also "Iash'Uddra the Endless Swarm" which, in my mind, hints at it being the Outsider who perhaps had something to do with the Tyranids.

However, there is still the Hive Mind's psychic powers which would contradict any such notions of the Outsider creating the Tyranids and/or being the Hive Mind.

I thought Iash'Uddra was the name of another C'tan?

I can't find any other background on it. Considering there's nothing to suggest that there are other surviving C'tan (as in, enough of their essence is still in one place and not all of it is kept as shards) beyond the Nightbringer, Deceiver, Void Dragon and the Outsider, it's logical to assume the quote refers to the Outsider. After all, the Void Dragon is named as Mag'ladroth, which rules him out of that quote entirely.

Based on speculation and logic, the Outsider and the Endless Swarm are one and the same. I quite like the idea of a vengeful C'tan in exile creating (or otherwise utilising) the Tyranids to enact revenge on the galaxy and the Necrons. Whilst there is the issue of how long it takes Tyranids to traverse the void, a C'tan is very powerful... who knows what the Outsider could do in terms of speeding up the journey? Wouldn't surprise me if it knew how to create stable wormholes, for example.

Nevermind, the Outsider's name is Tsara'noga. Still... I wouldn't rule anything out, the Star Gods are beyond most mortal comprehension in the background at any rate.

Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

The two main possibilities for the Tyranids are a fluke of evolution or a bioweapon gone horribly, horribly wrong in a distant galaxy. Or perhaps horribly, horribly right. The C'tan cannot be the creators as the Tyranids are connected to the Warp, nor can the Old Ones as we have no evidence they can go to other galaxies.

No, They didn't.

The C'tan do not want to end all life. That would be counter-productive. Creating a race that eats all other lifeforms would also be counter-productive.

The Nids are from outside our galaxy. The C'tan are from our galaxy.

The Nids use the warp to communicate. The C'tan hate the warp; they can't use it or survive in it.

There's no evidence that the C'tan created the nids.

Your argument that the necrons used nids as a vanguard is bs as well. The Necrons hate the nids; that's why the Silent King returned from exile.

 Darkvoidof40k wrote:

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Darkvoidof40k wrote:
Whilst there is a lot of reasoning against the theory, there is a quote in the Necron codex by the Silent King. Part of it references both the Deceiver, the Nightbringer and also "Iash'Uddra the Endless Swarm" which, in my mind, hints at it being the Outsider who perhaps had something to do with the Tyranids.

However, there is still the Hive Mind's psychic powers which would contradict any such notions of the Outsider creating the Tyranids and/or being the Hive Mind.

I thought Iash'Uddra was the name of another C'tan?

I can't find any other background on it. Considering there's nothing to suggest that there are other surviving C'tan (as in, enough of their essence is still in one place and not all of it is kept as shards) beyond the Nightbringer, Deceiver, Void Dragon and the Outsider, it's logical to assume the quote refers to the Outsider. After all, the Void Dragon is named as Mag'ladroth, which rules him out of that quote entirely.

Based on speculation and logic, the Outsider and the Endless Swarm are one and the same. I quite like the idea of a vengeful C'tan in exile creating (or otherwise utilising) the Tyranids to enact revenge on the galaxy and the Necrons. Whilst there is the issue of how long it takes Tyranids to traverse the void, a C'tan is very powerful... who knows what the Outsider could do in terms of speeding up the journey? Wouldn't surprise me if it knew how to create stable wormholes, for example.

Nevermind, the Outsider's name is Tsara'noga. Still... I wouldn't rule anything out, the Star Gods are beyond most mortal comprehension in the background at any rate.

Iash'uddera The Endless swarm is a completely different C'tan than Tsara'noga, the Outsider.

This is confirmed in the WD that names the C'tan.

The C'tan also did not create the Tyranids.

Tyranids are an extragalactic race. They come from the dark void between galaxies - who knows how many untold hundreds of galaxies they've consumed before making it here? I have a good feeling that GW would keep them separate from C'Tan/Old Ones/War in Heaven lore in terms of their origins.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, the Necrontyr had superior technology to the Old Ones.

This never made much sense to me to be honest, The Old Ones had unparalleled mastery over the warp and had the ability to seed and steer life itself. Yet somehow the Necrontyr, who could do neither of these things, had superior tech before even the C'tan taught them the secrets of the material universe.

I always thought of it this way; the Necronntyr, being a warlike race, had more destructive tech better suited for conflicts. The Old Ones on the other hand were more advanved but just weren't used to using their knowhow in a destructive way.

Kinda like the Mongol tribes beating China.

The C'tan did not deliver the secrets of the materium to the Necrons, only provided immortality (And powered the occasional doomsday device).

It was Szeras that made species-wide biotransference a possibility.

So was I thinking about Oldcron fluff that was retconned or was this never the case in the first place?

 Popenfresh wrote:
So was I thinking about Oldcron fluff that was retconned or was this never the case in the first place?

Nope, never the case. IIRC, the necrons already had advanced tech before the C'tan.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Popenfresh wrote:
So was I thinking about Oldcron fluff that was retconned or was this never the case in the first place?

Nope, never the case. IIRC, the necrons already had advanced tech before the C'tan.

They had advanced technology, but it was vague enough that one could assume that the C'tan provided the Necrontyr/Necrons with some incredible technology.

Anyway, back to the OP. Looking at the timescale, one can easily see that the C'tan (of our galaxy) didn't.

The Necrons went to sleep roughly 65 million years ago. The Tyranids, who have devoured at least a dozen galaxies, had to have started billions of years ago.

Now, what makes it clear that no C'tan could have created the Tyranids is the presence of the Hive Mind and Nids having the capacity for Warp Tainted powers. The Warp is clearly stated to be the anathema to the C'tan who went as far to try to severe the connection of the Warp from this galaxy at least.

Another nail in the C'Tan-made-the-'Nids coffin: the aside from the Chaos powers, Gork'n'Mork, and perhaps even the Emp, the Hive Mind is one of the largest psychic entities in the galaxy. The Warp is inimical to the C'Tan, and therefore they wouldn't be able to engineer a billion year old, highly psychic super-predator, because age aside, they have no power in or over the warp.

For real, the C'Tan, while gods in the Materium, have less of a warp signature then a Tau with a head cold

 -Loki- wrote:
Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

Sounds like just the sort of thing a race would create as a weapon. If the nids are to hunt down other lifeforms, it would be necessary for them to find those other lifeforms by sensing their presence via the warp.

It's like saying humans can't create robots to go to other planets because humans can't live on those other planets.

cadbren wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

Sounds like just the sort of thing a race would create as a weapon. If the nids are to hunt down other lifeforms, it would be necessary for them to find those other lifeforms by sensing their presence via the warp.

It's like saying humans can't create robots to go to other planets because humans can't live on those other planets.

Yes, but humans can atleast venture to other planets, observe other planets, learn about other planets. The C'Tan knows nothing and can't do anything related to the warp.

 Gar'Ang wrote:

cadbren wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

Sounds like just the sort of thing a race would create as a weapon. If the nids are to hunt down other lifeforms, it would be necessary for them to find those other lifeforms by sensing their presence via the warp.

It's like saying humans can't create robots to go to other planets because humans can't live on those other planets.

Yes, but humans can atleast venture to other planets, observe other planets, learn about other planets. The C'Tan knows nothing and can't do anything related to the warp.

I wouldn't say knows nothing. They seem to have some understanding hence the pylons to severe real space from the warp as well as the Dolmen Gates.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Gar'Ang wrote:

cadbren wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

Sounds like just the sort of thing a race would create as a weapon. If the nids are to hunt down other lifeforms, it would be necessary for them to find those other lifeforms by sensing their presence via the warp.

It's like saying humans can't create robots to go to other planets because humans can't live on those other planets.

Yes, but humans can atleast venture to other planets, observe other planets, learn about other planets. The C'Tan knows nothing and can't do anything related to the warp.

I wouldn't say knows nothing. They seem to have some understanding hence the pylons to severe real space from the warp as well as the Dolmen Gates.

Ok, maybe I was a little bit harsh. They know of its existence.

The Dolmen gates are for the Webway.

 Gar'Ang wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Gar'Ang wrote:

cadbren wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Any C'tan being related to the Tyranids falls apart as soon as you, you know, think.

The primary reason being Tyranids only form of communication, the Hive Mind, is in the warp. You know, that realm that's anathema to the C'tan?

Sounds like just the sort of thing a race would create as a weapon. If the nids are to hunt down other lifeforms, it would be necessary for them to find those other lifeforms by sensing their presence via the warp.

It's like saying humans can't create robots to go to other planets because humans can't live on those other planets.

Yes, but humans can atleast venture to other planets, observe other planets, learn about other planets. The C'Tan knows nothing and can't do anything related to the warp.

I wouldn't say knows nothing. They seem to have some understanding hence the pylons to severe real space from the warp as well as the Dolmen Gates.

Ok, maybe I was a little bit harsh. They know of its existence.

The Dolmen gates are for the Webway.

The reason why the Gates exist is because one of the C'tan wanted to bring his flame to the space beyond. Which I think implies Warp and that they only made it to the webway is a way of showing slow progress.

The Old Ones created all life in the Galaxy.
The Old Ones created the C'tan.
The Outsider is a fallen Old One that went against the ethos of creating species to creating the Tyranids which devour life. (S)he was then cast out of the Old Ones "council" and branded the enemy and allied herself/himself to the C'tan.

Mellow wrote:
The Old Ones created all life in the Galaxy.
The Old Ones created the C'tan.
The Outsider is a fallen Old One that went against the ethos of creating species to creating the Tyranids which devour life. (S)he was then cast out of the Old Ones "council" and branded the enemy and allied herself/himself to the C'tan.

Doesn't work. C'tan were old when the universe was young. They're older than the Old Ones.

It would explain how a "C'tan" created the Tyranids if it was infact a renegade or fallen old one that joined the C'tan's side. Hence outsider, not one of the C'tan but fighting for the same cause.

Mellow wrote:
The Old Ones created all life in the Galaxy.
The Old Ones created the C'tan.
The Outsider is a fallen Old One that went against the ethos of creating species to creating the Tyranids which devour life. (S)he was then cast out of the Old Ones "council" and branded the enemy and allied herself/himself to the C'tan.

No, that's absurd.

The Old Ones did not create all life in the galaxy.
The Necrontyr are a prime example of this.

They certainly did not make the C'tan. The C'tan are a race of creatures that were born inside stars; they are more of a natural anomaly than a life form, and existed since the dawn of the universe. Are you telling me that some Old One thought "hey, I know! Lets make an energy creature that feeds off life and stick him inside of a star! And lets make tons of them!"?
Yeah, not buying it.