Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

17. SS Panzergrenadierkompanie "Götz von Berlichingen"



HQ:
37. SS Panzergrenadier Regiment HQ : Hauptsturmführer Göltsch Fearless / Trained 45 Points

Combat:

I./37. SS Panzergrenadier Platoon Unterscharführer Diller Fearless / Trained 165 Points
- 3 Squads Panzergrenadiers

II./37. SS Panzergrenadier Platoon Unterscharführer Brantsch Fearless / Trained 165 Points
- 3 Squads Panzergrenadiers

Weapons Platoon:

17. SS Panzerjägerabteilung Unterscharführer Krowzik Fearless / Trained 135 Points
- 3 7.5cm PAK40

Divisional Support:

2. SS Panzerabteilung "Das Reich" Unterscharführer Aumeister Fearless / Veteran 640 Points
- 3 Panther A

17. SS Panzerabteilung Unterscharführer Langemann Fearless / Veteran 435 Points
- 4 StuG IV

353. Infanteriedivision Rocket Launcher Battery Confident / Trained 105 Points
- 3 15cm NW41 Hauptmann Brennauer

17. SS Flackabteilung Fearless / Trained 75 Points
- 1 8.8 FlaK 36

Total Points: 1765

The 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Götz von Berlichingen was a German SS panzergrenadier division which saw action on the Western Front during World War II.

The division was raised near Poitiers, France as the Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen" in October 1943. It was formed from scratch, with the majority of its original cadre coming from replacement units and conscripts, many of whom were Romanian Germans and French volunteers. The division was granted the honour-title Götz von Berlichingen

After the D-Day allied invasion, the Götz von Berlichingen was ordered to Normandy to take part in the efforts to reduce the Allied beachhead. On 11 June, the division first met the enemy in combat. The reconnaissance battalion engaged in combat with the paratroopers of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division near the town of Carentan.
The Americans secured the town and were advancing south by the morning of 13 June.
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 37, supported by the assault guns of the division's Panzer battalion and Oberst Friedrich August Freiherr von der Heydte's 6th Fallschirmjäger Regiment, attacked the advancing paratroopers. In what the Americans dubbed The Battle of Bloody Gulch, the Germans routed two paratroop companies before their attack was stopped by the arrival of Combat Command A of the U.S. 2nd Armored Division.
For the rest of the month, the division was engaged in heavy fighting for the bocage country near Saint Lô and Coutances. During this period the Götz von Berlichingen suffered heavy losses.And started its retreat toward Germany

Noticed you left the war crimes out of your little history lesson

I am confused with the reason for this thread. Are you looking for list advice? Or are you just informing us about a particular unit?

 Aldramelech wrote:
Noticed you left the war crimes out of your little history lesson

Not sure what your point is. Are you expecting all army lists based on units/armies that committed crimes to come complete with groveling apologies attached?

That’s going to leave most German and Russian players in something of a bind. Also Japanese players when the new supplement gets released.

Im more confused by '353. Infanteriedivision Rocket Launcher Battery'...

If this is a 'histrorical' list, why is it there?

I guess you can explain the Das Reich Panthers for the period in August when 17th were attached to them for the Mortain counterattack.

But the 353 entry has me non-plussed.

Firstly, Im pretty sure the division had no organic nebelwerfers. The artillery batteries had either 105mm or 150mm guns. Also none seem to have ever been attached to 17th SS. I/Artillerie-Regiment 353 was on loan to 91, Infanterie Division and IV./Artillerie-Regiment 353 was with 243. Infanterie Division. Indeed it is these two divisions with which it operates in Normandy until being transfeered into the II. Fallschirm-Korps area of operations in August.

The only non-17th SS artillery battery I can confirm as directly subordinated to thqem in Normandy was Artillerie-Regiment 456 that was attached to them on 21st July.

With the 17th SS, I hope those Panzergrenadiers dont have any panzerfausts... According to Stober, they didnt have any until mid-july, and then only in small quantities. The divisions was also massively short on transport vehicles, lacking nearly 1500 trucks alone. They only had a total of 257 transport and towing vehicles for the entire division.

Finally the 17. SS-Panzerjager Abt. didnt have towed Pak 40s. The 1st and 2nd companies were due to recieve Jagdpanzer IVs and consequently didnt go to Normandy. The 3rd Company had self-propelled Marders, most likely 3 Marders with 76.2mm guns, and nine mounting 75mm guns (these were the Hotchkiss Marder conversions). All the divisions towed Pak40 seem to have been in the Panzergrenadier regiments heavy companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

craftfeld wrote:


HQ:
37. SS Panzergrenadier Regiment HQ : Hauptsturmführer Göltsch Fearless / Trained 45 Points

One last thing... I dunno who he is, but he was never their CO.

SS-Obersturmbannführer Jakob Fick was the regimental commander in Normandy, until October 44, when SS-Obersturmbannführer Kurt Launer took over till December, when Fick resumed command till the following March '45 when SS-Obersturmbannführer Josef Bäurle took over for five days before Fick once more resumed command.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LuciusAR wrote:

 Aldramelech wrote:
Noticed you left the war crimes out of your little history lesson

Not sure what your point is. Are you expecting all army lists based on units/armies that committed crimes to come complete with groveling apologies attached?

That’s going to leave most German and Russian players in something of a bind. Also Japanese players when the new supplement gets released.

Well if presenting a mini-history of the division, why not mention it all? After all, it is part of the history...

To be fair their record is better than most, but there were a number of individuals prosecuted for War Crimes who were members of the division. There is also unsubstantiated reports that the division executed a number of wounded US Airborne in Normandy, but that is unconfirmed and has to be treated as such.

Big P wrote:


Well if presenting a mini-history of the division, why not mention it all? After all, it is part of the history...

To be fair their record is better than most, but there were a number of individuals prosecuted for War Crimes who were members of the division. There is also unsubstantiated reports that the division executed a number of wounded US Airborne in Normandy, but that is unconfirmed and has to be treated as such.

I do see your point, but I think it’s a good thing that FOW and indeed historical gaming in general sticks to dealing with only the military aspects of conflicts and leaves war crimes/politics out of it. I don’t want to have to read an account of the Holocaust or the rape of East Prussia in the background section of the FOW rulebook.

I couldnt disagree more.

I dont really want to get into it, but part of what makes the Waffen-SS fight how they do is their ideology and the sense with which some of its personnel are imbued with it.

To divorce such things from their history is a very dangerous road to tread... That road ends in 'the SS are kewl' statements.

If you wish to have a historical unit, its worth knowing the history behind them, warts and all, not just the glorified bits.

Crimes committed in the combat zone are part of their military history, and indeed in some cases are the reason behind the such hard fighting as that between 12th SS and the Canadians around Caen for example.

To me its all history and its always worth knowing the full story.

And that is it in a nutshell for me too......

Flames of War punt their particular and some would say strange version of WW2 and although they claim its just a game and not a history lesson I have seen plenty of examples of people new to both hobby and history spouting stuff from them like its gospel...... it isn't.

The ops post (the history bits) have been copied and pasted direct into his post from Wikipedia and although that is not the best source of info either, it does at least give a full account of the unit, warts and all.

Rather then just cherry picking the "Good bits" for want of a better phrase, why not just post a link to the page so anyone who is interested in finding out more can see for themselves?

Ok..next time with war crimes, but I would also ask the respective persons to as well state about the war crimes other countries inflicted :

e.g. Carpet Bombing of german civilians, imprisonment of anything that looked like a japanese person in nothing better than a concentration camp...or allied soldiers killing any german pow soldier with his blood group tattooed on his skin.....

Or nuclear testing on japanese cities ?

And please then never ever play FOW Vietnam with your Agent Orange usage.

That leads to nothing.... its a game.. if you want to do finger pointing always remember there are a couple of fingers pointed back at yourself.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
353. was attached to it as allied platoon in Normandy.

And thanks for the correction on the HQ. You are right there.

Cheers

Big P wrote:
Im more confused by '353. Infanteriedivision Rocket Launcher Battery'...

If this is a 'histrorical' list, why is it there?

I guess you can explain the Das Reich Panthers for the period in August when 17th were attached to them for the Mortain counterattack.

But the 353 entry has me non-plussed.

Firstly, Im pretty sure the division had no organic nebelwerfers. The artillery batteries had either 105mm or 150mm guns. Also none seem to have ever been attached to 17th SS. I/Artillerie-Regiment 353 was on loan to 91, Infanterie Division and IV./Artillerie-Regiment 353 was with 243. Infanterie Division. Indeed it is these two divisions with which it operates in Normandy until being transfeered into the II. Fallschirm-Korps area of operations in August.

The only non-17th SS artillery battery I can confirm as directly subordinated to thqem in Normandy was Artillerie-Regiment 456 that was attached to them on 21st July.

With the 17th SS, I hope those Panzergrenadiers dont have any panzerfausts... According to Stober, they didnt have any until mid-july, and then only in small quantities. The divisions was also massively short on transport vehicles, lacking nearly 1500 trucks alone. They only had a total of 257 transport and towing vehicles for the entire division.

Finally the 17. SS-Panzerjager Abt. didnt have towed Pak 40s. The 1st and 2nd companies were due to recieve Jagdpanzer IVs and consequently didnt go to Normandy. The 3rd Company had self-propelled Marders, most likely 3 Marders with 76.2mm guns, and nine mounting 75mm guns (these were the Hotchkiss Marder conversions). All the divisions towed Pak40 seem to have been in the Panzergrenadier regiments heavy companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

craftfeld wrote:


HQ:
37. SS Panzergrenadier Regiment HQ : Hauptsturmführer Göltsch Fearless / Trained 45 Points

One last thing... I dunno who he is, but he was never their CO.

SS-Obersturmbannführer Jakob Fick was the regimental commander in Normandy, until October 44, when SS-Obersturmbannführer Kurt Launer took over till December, when Fick resumed command till the following March '45 when SS-Obersturmbannführer Josef Bäurle took over for five days before Fick once more resumed command.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LuciusAR wrote:

 Aldramelech wrote:
Noticed you left the war crimes out of your little history lesson

Not sure what your point is. Are you expecting all army lists based on units/armies that committed crimes to come complete with groveling apologies attached?

That’s going to leave most German and Russian players in something of a bind. Also Japanese players when the new supplement gets released.

Well if presenting a mini-history of the division, why not mention it all? After all, it is part of the history...

To be fair their record is better than most, but there were a number of individuals prosecuted for War Crimes who were members of the division. There is also unsubstantiated reports that the division executed a number of wounded US Airborne in Normandy, but that is unconfirmed and has to be treated as such.

I can't even be bothered.........................

War is evil. Killing people is not "Kewl" As stated by others there are plenty of incidents on all sides of the war (in fact any war) that are reprehensible and nothing to be proud of.

Wargaming is - depending on your perspective - an advance/enhanced version of chess. The point is to position your forces to successfully achieve the objective of the scenario. FOW is based on a points value basis of achieving game balance. This is of course inaccurate to history but it is easier to achieve a "game" balance than a truly accurate situation like the 45 gates of berlin or Wake island... these will be hopeless situations at best and never to be duplicated in FOW scenarios.

Now to the point of accuracy, when restricted to the military aspect, it is not evil to field an SS unit. However we are talking military not idealogy or political actions or actions that fall outside of the purely military sphere. While I don't have a problem with fielding a SS unit, I would have a problem with someone espousing that the SS was a great organization that deserves honor and respect. Sure they performed some impressive military feats but they - at their core - espoused a reprehensible idealogy. Leave it at that... make the unit, field the unit, play the unit but don't try to tell me how they were units to be honored...

DAaddict wrote:
War is evil. Killing people is not "Kewl" As stated by others there are plenty of incidents on all sides of the war (in fact any war) that are reprehensible and nothing to be proud of.

Wargaming is - depending on your perspective - an advance/enhanced version of chess. The point is to position your forces to successfully achieve the objective of the scenario. FOW is based on a points value basis of achieving game balance. This is of course inaccurate to history but it is easier to achieve a "game" balance than a truly accurate situation like the 45 gates of berlin or Wake island... these will be hopeless situations at best and never to be duplicated in FOW scenarios.

Now to the point of accuracy, when restricted to the military aspect, it is not evil to field an SS unit. However we are talking military not idealogy or political actions or actions that fall outside of the purely military sphere. While I don't have a problem with fielding a SS unit, I would have a problem with someone espousing that the SS was a great organization that deserves honor and respect. Sure they performed some impressive military feats but they - at their core - espoused a reprehensible idealogy. Leave it at that... make the unit, field the unit, play the unit but don't try to tell me how they were units to be honored...

There is an uncomfortable element that we all have to acknowledge, when I roll a dice and kill a Space Marine that is fantasy it never happened. When I roll a dice and my Tiger Tank mows down a British Paratrooper Squad, there is a fair chance that actually happened somewhere at some point. I try not to think of it in those terms but in truth there is an element of real men, real deeds, real death in Flames of War and we do ourselves a great dis-service when we don't acknowledge that fact.

I think if the only thing that comes out of it, is a better understanding of what happened in reality then I can make my peace with it and I do not see it as a Homage, or pastiche or insulting I see it as educational. It is much better than War-films or Video Games where war is entertainment, but it's just something we have to wary of not skewing our reality with it, art imitates life, life doesn't imitate art.

craftfeld wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
353. was attached to it as allied platoon in Normandy.

Can you tell me at what date?

Also which part of 353 had the Nebelwerfers?

The reason I ask is that their artillery returns for 1st June dont show any... And the German 'Neu Art' Infantry Divisions did not have them in the divisional artillery.

Divisional Artillery Regiment

Regimental Headquarters

Three Light Battalions – each with twelve towed 10.5-cm howitzers, divided into three Batteries with four guns per Battery. One gun from one Battery could be deleted to give eleven guns overall.

Medium Battalion – with twelve towed 15-cm howitzers, divided into three Batteries with four guns per Battery. One gun from each Battery could be deleted to give nine guns overall.

Generally Nebelwerfers were deployed in Werfer-Brigades and regiments, and not as an organic part of an infantry division. These formations would then be attached to divisions or corps as needed but they were not part of those divisions and had their own unique numbering. There were five Werfer formations deployed in Normandy. Of these, Werfer-Brigade 7 detached Werfer-Regiment 84 to support the I. SS Panzer Korps from 18th July 1944. According to Zetterling this is the only Nebelwerfer unit that could have supported 17th SS. This also seems borne out by the following which lists all Heer Werfer units;

http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/werfer.html

Werfer-Brigade 7
Volkswerfer-Brigade 7

Mar 44 formed at Munsterlager (WK X) with Werfer-Regiment 83 and Werfer-Regiment 84. Werfer-Rgt. 83 had 2 Abteilungen with 15cm and 1 Abteilung with 21cm Werfers. Werfer-Rgt. 84 had 2 Abteilungen with 15cm and 1 Abteilung with 30cm Werfers. Both regiments had the usual 22. Batterie with panzerwerfers.
18 May 44 Beauvais, France
16 Jun 44 supported an attack on the British bridgehead over the Orne River

1 Jul 44 124 werfers ready for combat
3-4 Jul 44 attached to 12th SS-Panzer Division
18 Jul 44 assigned to I SS-Panzer Corps
Late 44 reformed as Volkswerfer-Brigade 7
[Dupuy: Dec 44, LVIII Panzer Corps, 5th Panzer Army, Ardennes Offensive]
SF: Mar I 44, 7-3-10 mot Rkt Art X 7, transfer to West

Big P wrote:
Also which part of 353 had the Nebelwerfers?

353 may be a red herring (in addition to being an Infantry Division). Looking through the 17th SS list for FoW it says that "Grenadiers from a number of infantry divisions, including 353. Infanteriedivision, fought alongside 17. SS Panzergrenadierdivision in Normandy." - p. 19 17th SS PDF

Unless I missed something it does not specify where the nebs came from other than to specify they are Heer rather than SS.

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=847

Well they were certainly supported by 84 Werfer-Regiment...

The SS-Werfer-Abteilung 102 in Normandy were assigned to II SS Panzer Korps, generally attached to Das Reich until 20th July.

Big P wrote:

37. SS Panzergrenadier Regiment HQ : Hauptsturmführer Göltsch Fearless / Trained 45 Points

One last thing... I dunno who he is, but he was never their CO.

SS-Obersturmbannführer Jakob Fick was the regimental commander in Normandy, until October 44, when SS-Obersturmbannführer Kurt Launer took over till December, when Fick resumed command till the following March '45 when SS-Obersturmbannführer Josef Bäurle took over for five days before Fick once more resumed command.

Clearly the error here is that he's put 'Regiment' instead of 'Company', the fact that he's a Captain and FoW being a company sized game is a big give away.

Who's Hauptsturmführer Göltsch? I don't know, maybe he just named his army commander after a beer or something. Is that allowed or is it akin to painting your army red now?

Everybody knows if you want to win battles you should call your German army commander Hauptman Spiggött!

Hmmm... Sorry I thought he was trying to build a historical list, and I figured I'd just point out the errors.

Apologies if that offends.

Should know better than to offer historical advice to FOW players...

Thats a joke before you get all ranty... Von Spiggott.

Big P - Shooting from the Hip mowing down the Historically illiterate and ill-informed FoW Community - I jest.....

As ever you knowledge borders on insanity, I "doth my Cap" knowledge at that level is not easy to obtain and it's certainly not easy to maintain.

Nah Im not insane... Just very sad.

Big P wrote:
Hmmm... Sorry I thought he was trying to build a historical list, and I figured I'd just point out the errors.

Apologies if that offends.

You're a size 10 useful idiot sometimes P, guy had three posts and was obviously new to this. It's ok though, he's gone now, you've kept history pure.

Nice info though. A shame you're not posting in my WWI thread, making the most of your useful side.

Sadly there's no universally understood 'despairing face - offers hand to shake' emoticon on Dakka so you'll have to take this as it reads, for good or bad.

Not sure thats wise... Wouldnt want to inflict anymore proper history on you!

But judging by Craftfelds other post on the SS Flak Replacement Unit, he seems to be interested in 'pure history'... You might not be, but perhaps consider the possibility that he is?


Thanks anyway... Not sure I could help you on WW1, I dont know FOW rules to suggest how to change them, other than go buy an actual set of WW1 rules.

Why is it every time someone points out that certain german units committed terrible atrocities the FOW community immediately closes wagons and goes "Well the allies bombed cities and stuff!!!!"?

I really don't think shying away from an ugly truth and trying to rationalize the actions of the SS by saying that everyone is evil is really in the spirit of history. Acknowledging what certain units like the SS did doesn't mean you're aligning yourself with that ideology. I know the conversation has moved on but I have to get this out considering I got my head bitten off on the official forums for suggesting that gaming with SS symbols on my dice made me uncomfortable. For a wargame trying to gain a larger player base feeding off people like me disgusted with what 40k has become and into history (though saying I'm "into" history is like saying Napoleon was "into" strategy) the flames community, besides most of the users here on dakkadakka, is doing little to endear itself to me.

All that i can say is i thought Flames of war was meant to be played as a BAd John wayne movie. Could we please keep the WW2 Politics away? i mean come on what other games can the Soviets fight the Americans and that is why i like this game.if i was going to be playing a Historically Accurate game i think that i would not be playinfg FOW.or would they even be using a pts system?
Sorry i probably could start a rant but for now that is my 2 cents...
one last thing be nice to the noobs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aldramelech wrote:
Noticed you left the war crimes out of your little history lesson

i know history i think that is one of the good things thaat battlefront does is trying to leave that poltical BS out of it.both sides did bad things we all know that....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big P wrote:
I couldnt disagree more.

I dont really want to get into it, but part of what makes the Waffen-SS fight how they do is their ideology and the sense with which some of its personnel are imbued with it.

That road ends in 'the SS are kewl' statements.

But i though they were...lol....

In saying what I said, I'm not trying to say don't play SS. Some of the late war FT SS lists are extremely tactically interesting . I'm just saying to not try and justify what some SS units did or try to justify it away or say it was in some way ok.

I don't want to rant either, just had a bad experience with the community, sorry guys

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
if i was going to be playing a Historically Accurate game i think that i would not be playinfg FOW.or would they even be using a pts system?

Alot of games use a points system. Points dont make it historically inaccurate, just means the lists have to be cleverly designed, along with good generic scenarios, to force historical forces and styles of play.

I can think of Battlegroup, Maurice and Longstreet that all function in that manner.

 col. krazy kenny wrote:
All that i can say is i thought Flames of war was meant to be played as a BAd John wayne movie. Could we please keep the WW2 Politics away? i mean come on what other games can the Soviets fight the Americans and that is why i like this game.

I suppose thats the difference. To me I cant think of anything worse than a game thats like a bad John Wayne movie (but then I never liked him... Always an Eastwood man myself). For me, I cant divorce history from a game that is a historical wargame... But then my other passion is military history so perhaps its just a difference in how people perceive their hobby. For some its just a game that uses WW2 style figures, for others wargaming is as much about the historical recreation as the game itself.

Political BS? This has nothing to do with Politics, it has to do with Historical Fact.

The SS form an important part of WW2 History, so is it right to have them on your gaming table? Yes, I believe it is.

Is it OK to decorate your carry case with the symbol of an SS Unit? NO it most certainly is not, nor is it OK to use dice with these symbols either. This above everything else is a matter of having some common sense and having a little taste.

Bad things happen in war, and many bad things were done, some out of practical necessity and for the greater good.

The SS is an illegal paramilitary organisation that waged a campaign of terror and genocide and was recruited and trained for that purpose (That is the legal judgement of the international Court). These men volunteered (yes I know people were conscripted into the SS, but they were the minority) and had no doubts as to what that meant and what would be asked of them. Many of them alive today and recently deceased were and are not in the slightest apologetic about what they had done.

To carpet bomb a city is not a nice thing to do, but not illegal. To drop an atomic weapon is not a nice thing to do, but again there is no law against it. Allowing your troops "off the leash" and to plunder and rape is reprehensible at best.

BUT. To undertake to murder a complete race of people, men, women and children is illegal, immoral and in a totally different league, in fact it is a unique crime in human history.
To set out with the planned purpose to exterminate millions of human beings, not as a by product of an action but as the reason for it is monstrous beyond all reason.

Many, and when I say many we are talking thousands, members of the Waffen SS at some time in their service either spent time at the camps or in a special action group and even when in a "normal" military unit still managed to murder innocent people and POW's. There are those who say "But my unit didn't do any of that", trust me, the entire SS is tainted and there are no "safe" units you can you use and claim are "The good guys". The SS were bad, period.

If you want to think that the SS are "kewl" then that is up to you, if you want to forget that your army are the worst mass murderers in history, thats up to you but CHILDREN read this forum, CHILDREN read FOW books and CHILDREN are growing up thinking that its OK to walk down the street with an SS lightning bolt on their bag!

I Have ranted about this before and I dare say I will again, while there is breath in my body I will make sure that everybody gets the whole picture

Edit: And if you are thinking that this post says anything about my personal politics, you'd be quite wrong. I have an equal loathing for communists also.

What's wrong with the dice? I paint unit markings on my tanks to denote which unit they belong to, and that they belong to me. I have dice with the same markings, also denoting that they belong to me, and are related to the aforementioned unit. They are an unambiguous part of my wargaming experience, and appear in context upon a wargaming table, A badge on a bag can be read and understood in a multitude of ways because it lacks context. An SS dice on a wargaming table by an SS army in a wargaming situation is pretty clear.

Thinking on it, why should a potted combat history for FOW contain war-crimes? AFAIK the game doesn't allow for 'committing war crimes, and rightly so.'

Edited by AgeOfEgos

So what of crimes committed during their 'combat' history?


Why should it mention them?

So people understand the type of people that they were in reality and understand the significance of those 'unambiguous' symbols on your dice.

If you want to air-brush out LAH shooting unarmed American POWs during the Bulge offensive or SS-TV shooting British POWs at La Paradis then thats your perogative, but both actions occured during or directly after combat.

I will hazard a guess as why it should mention these things.

So it informs people what they were like in reality, not some fanciful uber soldier. So that those playing learn a little about history and a little respect is shown for those 97 British soldiers who were shot after surrendering and the countless others.

Oh and so people dont forget what they were like... and that WW2 did actually happen. Its not 'fluff'.

 Aldramelech wrote:
Political BS? This has nothing to do with Politics, it has to do with Historical Fact.

The SS form an important part of WW2 History, so is it right to have them on your gaming table? Yes, I believe it is.

Is it OK to decorate your carry case with the symbol of an SS Unit? NO it most certainly is not, nor is it OK to use dice with these symbols either. This above everything else is a matter of having some common sense and having a little taste.

Bad things happen in war, and many bad things were done, some out of practical necessity and for the greater good.

The SS is an illegal paramilitary organisation that waged a campaign of terror and genocide and was recruited and trained for that purpose (That is the legal judgement of the international Court). These men volunteered (yes I know people were conscripted into the SS, but they were the minority) and had no doubts as to what that meant and what would be asked of them. Many of them alive today and recently deceased were and are not in the slightest apologetic about what they had done.

To carpet bomb a city is not a nice thing to do, but not illegal. To drop an atomic weapon is not a nice thing to do, but again there is no law against it. Allowing your troops "off the leash" and to plunder and rape is reprehensible at best.

BUT. To undertake to murder a complete race of people, men, women and children is illegal, immoral and in a totally different league, in fact it is a unique crime in human history.
To set out with the planned purpose to exterminate millions of human beings, not as a by product of an action but as the reason for it is monstrous beyond all reason.

Many, and when I say many we are talking thousands, members of the Waffen SS at some time in their service either spent time at the camps or in a special action group and even when in a "normal" military unit still managed to murder innocent people and POW's. There are those who say "But my unit didn't do any of that", trust me, the entire SS is tainted and there are no "safe" units you can you use and claim are "The good guys". The SS were bad, period.

If you want to think that the SS are "kewl" then that is up to you, if you want to forget that your army are the worst mass murderers in history, thats up to you but CHILDREN read this forum, CHILDREN read FOW books and CHILDREN are growing up thinking that its OK to walk down the street with an SS lightning bolt on their bag!

I Have ranted about this before and I dare say I will again, while there is breath in my body I will make sure that everybody gets the whole picture

Edit: And if you are thinking that this post says anything about my personal politics, you'd be quite wrong. I have an equal loathing for communists also.

I've come across a few like you in my years playing SS. Glad you people are the minority. Waffen SS were not universally war criminals, they were the elite formation of the german army pre-war and as such were attractive to young men wanting to fight alongside the best (the motivation for many 101st E-co. vets IIRC). After the war they were branded paramilitary (they weren't, they were a branch of the military) whereas Soviet partisans (who were VERY MUCH paramilitary and who committed awful atrocities) were not. I'm not saying the SS come off smelling like roses but this idiotic oversimplifying of things is foolish and, sadly, rather typical amongst the British who can't seem to get over that war that happened over 70 years ago. You claim that SS (i assume universally speaking here - you don't specify) 'set out with planned purpose to exterminate millions'. How pray tell is this possible? The Waffen SS were founded in the mid-1930s and the Final Solution was dreamed up in 1942.