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Tolerance is not a one way street Nice saying

German part: nächstes Mal mache ich es anders

I think that post have a bit derail from his core idea and I am glad craftfeld hav'nt lost faith in this historical goal. From my side, I grow the idea to build an historical 19e Panzerdivision and seeing how flaming people are in respond to German army it drive me down a bit from my main objective.

The idea is not to start a debate on what SS have done, but how can it be representativly as accurate as possible. It's part of the hobby to search for the historical aspect of WW2, this game make me learn things while I build and play it. The way people associate nazi, crime and the personality of the player make me lose faith a bit in gaming in general... I thought only flamers were busy bullying only GW products, but it seem there is also flamers in FOW regarging of historical accuracy about how to represent the reality of facts. The idea is not to point out what the units does, but who they were. I will definetly continue to follow this post to learn more about the 17th SS Panzergrenadier for the military and strategic aspect.

Have you try to find some pictures of it and what about your units, do you expect to post some pictures of your army?

I was not attacking you personally Craftfeld and I made no judgements about you, what I've done is point out that a link to the page on the units history for those interested would have been better as it gives the full story and as many playing FOW are the younger generation and might not be as well educated as some it would be better if they were given the chance to see it all.

To answer another point you make, yes, I have a very real problem with the way BF present SS units in general, they are unknowingly or not (that's another argument), rehabilitating the SS in the same way as a certain type of historical author are guilty of over the last decade or so.

They present them as tough and heroic special troops and making nifty little dice sets and unit patches for them make them seem even more so, they are in a word trying to make them "Kwel" and this is very, very dangerous.

As Mywik has pointed out, if you had just presented an army list for advice and left it at that, I wouldn't have made any comment but you presented a unit history along the lines of how BF would have and that is, as I have said, a dangerous road to travel.

Again many playing FOW are the younger generation and I have been in the past heavily involved in instructing Royal Marine Cadets, to do this I had to take special courses in instructing Children and the first thing I was taught and the thing that stuck with me the most is the last thing I will say on this subject here on this thread:

I young mind is like a tape recorder, so be very, very careful what you record on it.

Tape recorder? Talk about history granddad!

 notprop wrote:
Tape recorder? Talk about history granddad!

Digibeta tapes are still around in professional video editing. *Duck and Cover*

If you are going to try and play any unit historically (and I really don't think FoW is good for history - it's great for Hollywood history)

Then make sure the context is there good and bad, as the events around any group will shape how/who they were.

If you present those facts, then all those here can make up their own minds, we are after all able to do that, whether you agree with the conclusion or not.

You're TELLING the guy what context he must present his army in?
It's his army. It's not real. It's a game. Like another poster mentioned, if you're not going to rant about individuals that BF put into their games which THEY have presented in a certainly biased light, can you really offer any justification for flaming a dude who is basing his toy soldiers on a military formation and not reaming out half a novels-worth of factually accurate criminality every time he mentions them?
To top it all off, making personal attacks, and taking certain elements of discussion personally as well, in addition to unnecessary swearing and caps lock, just goes further to invalidate certain peoples arguments. Accusing people of revisionism and calling them apologists or whatever... it's school playground ethics at work. Keep it objective.

Schoolyard ethics are about all you should expect when someone comes into a post with the clear intent to gak all over it without any other real goal.
I'm sure before every game he tells his German opponents that should thier units surrender he will murder 60-80% of them immediately and rape and kill any ethnic German women they find. Being the good student of WWII history that he is.

 AustonT wrote:
Schoolyard ethics are about all you should expect when someone comes into a post with the clear intent to gak all over it without any other real goal.
I'm sure before every game he tells his German opponents that should thier units surrender he will murder 60-80% of them immediately and rape and kill any ethnic German women they find. Being the good student of WWII history that he is.

You really are that stupid arn't ya?

I will try to post a scenario in a couple of days in regards to their involvement around Caen. If that has some problems in regards of historical correctness I would be thankful for any hints then.

Cheers




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In case someone likes to have the battlefront documents :

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=847

 AustonT wrote:
Schoolyard ethics are about all you should expect when someone comes into a post with the clear intent to gak all over it without any other real goal.
I'm sure before every game he tells his German opponents that should thier units surrender he will murder 60-80% of them immediately and rape and kill any ethnic German women they find. Being the good student of WWII history that he is.

Do you find the irony within this post? You'll win a cookie.

Not reading the thread - check
Not getting what the discussion is about - check
Trying to start a flame war after a heated but calm discussion - check

Please try to post something that contributes next time or dont post at all.

Thread closed for excessive rudeness and too much chatter not related to the topic in question.