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That's why you need cover (but of course Markerlights..) Still, the WK should be able to stay out of 24" easily and shoot them first.

 Shandara wrote:
That's why you need cover (but of course Markerlights..) Still, the WK should be able to stay out of 24" easily and shoot them first.

Well, not really. The Snipers are actually range 48", but with an ethereal in the squad and behind a quad gun ADL, (where they should be) they get 27 shots at 24" range. At 48" they still get 9 shots, which is enough to put out some damage still (well a third of that, really. so about two wounds a turn.)

Even if you have cover against the shooting, a good 4+ cover save (I very much doubt that a wraithknight will be able to claim cover often...) you only take a single less wound against this shooting that's still about 4 wounds total.

Sniper drones are very efficient when your opponent starts throwing around high toughness values. While they're no better than a seeker missile, their dealing with the wraithknights means that I can focus my big gun attention elsewhere.

Being stuck with only shooting 2 weapons really hurts, as if you could fire the scatter laser and then 2 heavy wraith guns he would be interesting. As is, I would keep him base cost with either spear or 2 wraith guns, and leverage the 12 inch movement as an assault unit. S10 does not stink in any way, and this guy brings it. Yes rending and poison are an embarrassing weakness, but for base cost 1 knight is not a real liability. When up against someone who can't deal with s10 t8 this guy really goes to town.

katfude wrote:
Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

Why would I b e pissed about losing maybe 3-4 wounds then assaulting a 350+ pt unit left to it's doom in my lines that cannot hurt it?

I'd love a delivery of the perfect unit for it to kill that's half again as costly as it! Might as well put a big Domino's pizza sign on the Drop Pod.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....

Plasma? Try 20 bolter shots that wound on 2s. Per pod. And anything worth doing is worth doubling. Yeah, you can pick him up now. If he still has a wound or two, a couple of stray tactical missles will finish the job. People always forget about the Sternguard's special ammo.

Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I think people are dramatically underestimating the resiliency of T8 and W6, particularly when you can heal it's wounds via Locks. You can torrent down a Riptide with small arms fire, small arms fire can't even touch the WK. That's a pretty massive difference.

Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....


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Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.

If you throw on a Scatter Laser the shots are likely to be twinlinked. The sun cannon is expensive but that is the one way I see running it.

Hellfire rounds wound on a 2plus, but then thats a over 300point unit of sternguard assuming 10 in a pod

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

Per Sternguard. You noticed I mentioned two. But in reality finding enough AP 3 in the rest of a list to deal the remaining 2.25 isn't hard. Eldar players need to rely on proper placement, cover choices, and bubblewrap to get the most out of their 300 pt MC. Try not to spread this misconception that T8 W6 is enough.

So just 2 Sternguard squads to take out 1 Wraithknight then?

In a list that big he may have 2 or even 3 Knights

T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

To answer the title; no, probably not.

So its the same points as two Wraithlords, about the same durability (ie somewhat lacking), faster but harder to hide. Also lacking awesome anti-horde double flamers.

I'd say the codex is crammed full of cheap AP2 now, in desirable places too. I'd ust keep it stock and keep it in reserve, then either deepstrike it into their backline or scare whatever comes close.

Lanlaorn wrote:
T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

Stonecrusher carnifex with endurance casted on it.

It's no tougher than 2 wraithlords, which I've seen survive past turn one zero total times.

What initative is it? Can it hurt a landraider easily before my Knights charge with some s10 ap2 godlyness?

Realistically Kroot sniper blobs will laugh at is and it's power armour save I know I Will and they are no were near the cost

Can it have feel no pain?





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O and sternguard can wound on 2+ with hellfire shells I used to run a ten man squad with Lysander for rerolls the swarm lord used to die to one round of shooting I can't see it lasting much longer

So - what I'm taking from this is that if I get first turn, I cast a psychic power or get him into area terrain and the wraithknight becomes even tougher to kill.

If I go 2nd, I reserve the wraithknight and turn up shooting.

What are the in/outs as far as people can see on the other builds of wraithknight - I'm thinking of using 1 with shield, suncannon and a scatter laser and one with the sword, shield and two starcannons.

Is there a worthwhile build with the wraithcannons?

Makes me want to get some more abyssal death marks for my necrons now. Totally seem worth it again! Just need a night scythe to survive dropping them off I guess lol.

Lanlaorn wrote:
T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

Lysander and 10 sternguards podding in 12" of the WK

They shoot 20 shots, hit 17 times thanks to lysander, wound 14 times.

You fail 4.9 times, cover not mattering.

This squad, all up costs about 485 points. IT can cost up to 50 points more, if players decide to take combi-weapons.

If you charge lysander's squad, you take 6 hits from overwatch, 5 wounds and you fail about 1.67 times.

Lysander+sternguard is a very dangerous combination. Even if you manage to get into combat, Lysander will wound you on 2's with his S10AP2 Thunder hammer, which gets 1 re-roll to hit.

Seriously. T8 is not as big as everyone wants it to be. You just need the right tools to deal with it. It's like people who say that a 3++ invulnerable save alone is better than a 2+5++. It really isn't. a 3++ doesn't take any more harm from AP1,2 and 3 weapons than anything worse, so it is perfectly acceptable to simply use your dragonfire bolts against them, for the 2+ wounding. a T8 model doesn't take anymore harm from a S8 weapon than he does from a lowly sniper rifle. There's no point in wasting high strength firepower to take down this "UBERAWESOMET8MONSTAH."

Depending on the list you play though.... I wouldn't be so worried about the Wraithknight to a certain extent as some of the other rumored units in the codex. Some of them just look nasty, and those drop pod stern guard will get chewed by Shurikan fire if the Bladestorm rules are correct.

It's going to be very dark for some alpha strike lists that rely on dropping in the Eldar deployment zone.

Also a Warlock can not only heal wounds, they are rumored to be able to improve saves, 2+ save T8....

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Depending on the list you play though.... I wouldn't be so worried about the Wraithknight to a certain extent as some of the other rumored units in the codex. Some of them just look nasty, and those drop pod stern guard will get chewed by Shurikan fire if the Bladestorm rules are correct.

It's going to be very dark for some alpha strike lists that rely on dropping in the Eldar deployment zone.

Also a Warlock can not only heal wounds, they are rumored to be able to improve saves, 2+ save T8....

Well that just makes it imperative to either ignore the knight, or kill it first turn. I am sure my army can do either.

Just a quick point Lysander can't go in a pod. And people say t8 isn't tough WTF if you don't play marines/de it's a nightmare. Gauss guns = no effect (plus no melta/missile in troops except expensive crypteks)
CSM = no special ammo bolters useless
Deamons= right bearly scratch it if pass all the tests to actually shoot (yes they can poison rend in cc)
Tau= bearly scratch it (bare snipers/suits)
Nids= see deamons (not counting hive guard)
All this and probably more that I've forgotten so t8 is a nightmare.

T8 is such a nightmare that Wraithlords are in every army and no one can kill them.

Oh wait...

That being said, GW wants to sell their big new shiney $140 (CAD) toy. I'd be surprised if it was not worth its point cost, on that basis alone.

Lets wait to really asses this until we see how the codex works. Although, I share the initial reaction that it might not be that tough given the 3+.

All of this stuff is well and good but hugely out of context from the real game. 2 Sternguard drop pods with Hellfire? So it's not scary because you can run a hugely specific, prohibitively expensive unit to deal with one (goodness only knows how you'd deal with 2)? Lysander with Sternguard is a Deathstar, which means you're using a Deathstar to not quite kill a single model? Come on. Even Grey knights fear these things; S4 force weapons are fine and dandy but you cannot touch T8. Let's look at the facts:

Wraithknights will often have fortune cast on them ASAP. This is Eldar we're talking about here. Good luck getting through T8 W6 with rerolled saves.

No-one will ever seriously just take one. It's either going to be 2 or allied with Riptides. What is your contingency plan to deal with 2/3 fast, tough MCs?

If a Wraithknight does charge a squad of MEQ, what can they do? They will always lose combat as T8 is immune to S4.

Necrons literally cannot realistically kill it in one turn. It averages 11 tesla destructors firing at it to kill. With Fortune, that becomes 33 (132 TL S7 tesla shots). Likewise, even 2x despairteks+10 Deathmarks only averages 5 wounds - that's 2 D&D squads.

They totally neuter the popular guard blobs. They take no damage from the overwatch and no damage from S4 power axes. One unit to tie up a massive tarpit literally all game? Yeah, that's amazing.

To kill one, you need a massive amount of fire power and you NEED to kill them fast as they're S10 I5 A4 MCs

Just because they're not invincible doesn't make them bad, not at all. The hole they fill is a useful one and Wraithlords don't really compare as they aren't Jump. It forces you to take a lot of rending/poison because otherwise you get thrashed. I wouldn't even upgrade them, being a Jump MC means you keep your toe in area and that's it - no Dangerous Terrain test as you're immune to them. These things can and will eat all of your heavy weapon shots. How can you deal with 2, on the grounds they've got an almost certain T2 assault? Can you deal with one supported by a Tau gunline? Can you kill it through fortune? People need to seriously look at their lists for this - it has 2 almost-railguns and is terrifying in assault. You need to be able to kill 2 without being totally crippled; can you do so? I doubt it for most armies currently. It's a fire magnet and IMO does its job very well.

Skullhammer wrote:
Just a quick point Lysander can't go in a pod. And people say t8 isn't tough WTF if you don't play marines/de it's a nightmare. Gauss guns = no effect (plus no melta/missile in troops except expensive crypteks)
CSM = no special ammo bolters useless
Deamons= right bearly scratch it if pass all the tests to actually shoot (yes they can poison rend in cc)
Tau= bearly scratch it (bare snipers/suits)
Nids= see deamons (not counting hive guard)
All this and probably more that I've forgotten so t8 is a nightmare.

Why can't lysander go in the pod?

Lysander is simply stopped from entering the Rhino or razorback. He simply takes up two transport slots in the 12-slot drop pod.

Also, I've already shown that tau can do A LOT to the wraithknight. You simply come here and make a sweeping generalisation that isn't even remotely true. do you know how irritating that is?

Don't just dismiss an armies potential. How about you actually think about what they can do, rather than saying they can't do it?


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Eyjio wrote:
All of this stuff is well and good but hugely out of context from the real game. 2 Sternguard drop pods with Hellfire? So it's not scary because you can run a hugely specific, prohibitively expensive unit to deal with one (goodness only knows how you'd deal with 2)? Lysander with Sternguard is a Deathstar, which means you're using a Deathstar to not quite kill a single model? Come on. Even Grey knights fear these things; S4 force weapons are fine and dandy but you cannot touch T8. Let's look at the facts:

Wraithknights will often have fortune cast on them ASAP. This is Eldar we're talking about here. Good luck getting through T8 W6 with rerolled saves.

No-one will ever seriously just take one. It's either going to be 2 or allied with Riptides. What is your contingency plan to deal with 2/3 fast, tough MCs?

If a Wraithknight does charge a squad of MEQ, what can they do? They will always lose combat as T8 is immune to S4.

Necrons literally cannot realistically kill it in one turn. It averages 11 tesla destructors firing at it to kill. With Fortune, that becomes 33 (132 TL S7 tesla shots). Likewise, even 2x despairteks+10 Deathmarks only averages 5 wounds - that's 2 D&D squads.

They totally neuter the popular guard blobs. They take no damage from the overwatch and no damage from S4 power axes. One unit to tie up a massive tarpit literally all game? Yeah, that's amazing.

To kill one, you need a massive amount of fire power and you NEED to kill them fast as they're S10 I5 A4 MCs

Just because they're not invincible doesn't make them bad, not at all. The hole they fill is a useful one and Wraithlords don't really compare as they aren't Jump. It forces you to take a lot of rending/poison because otherwise you get thrashed. I wouldn't even upgrade them, being a Jump MC means you keep your toe in area and that's it - no Dangerous Terrain test as you're immune to them. These things can and will eat all of your heavy weapon shots. How can you deal with 2, on the grounds they've got an almost certain T2 assault? Can you deal with one supported by a Tau gunline? Can you kill it through fortune? People need to seriously look at their lists for this - it has 2 almost-railguns and is terrifying in assault. You need to be able to kill 2 without being totally crippled; can you do so? I doubt it for most armies currently. It's a fire magnet and IMO does its job very well.

I don't remember saying 2 sternguard drop pods. I only mentioned a single one with Lysander.

if you charge a S4 unit with T8, the S4 unit can simply run away. The rule is called "Our weapons are useless."

How do you people comment on tactics without actually understanding the rules you're trying to rely on? Assault with a T8 model is actually a hinderance, because your opponent can choose to flee if he can't wound it. You can't tarpit a unit if they can run away and get away with it.

As I have pointed out, a single Tau sniper team can place 5 markerlights on it, as well as do 5 wounds at a range of 24". IF you actually htink you're going to close to use those S10 attacks, you're sorely mistaken.

Yeah, Tau will come down on MCs like the WK like a freight train. Insane amounts of S7 and sniper shots can be fired. Ion-heads and Riptides laugh at T8 too.

Daemon MCs don't really have a problem killing anything. Unless the WK has EW, 'Thirsters are gonna have a field day.

Lucarikx

If you use "Our weapons are useless", you're in severe danger of being swept because it's I5 compared to I3. Not really a good option, at least in combat you get to tarpit it so it isn't killing anything else and you won't lose a huge chunk of models. Even if they get ATSKNF, you're then locked in combat. A bad idea indeed. If they have fearless, then you can't even use that rule to begin with. As I said, it's really pretty terrifying because it'll be supported by an army. 20 sniper kroot do... 2.78 wounds, if it has no cover and if all of them are in range. That's terrible. S7 wounds on 5+ and unless it's AP3 has a 1/9 chance to do anything (assuming it autohits and the Wraithknight doesn't have Fortune). Again, unless you're firing 54 S7 shots which autohit, you're doing diddly. At the end of the day, even if you use all of your shooting and just about kill one model... is that a victory for you? It's not got huge damage potential and you're still facing most of an army. I think people are severely underrating this threat.

Yeah, my 30 Sniper Kroot would like to meet your WK and see how it fares...

I wasn't talking about 140 points worth of kroot killing half your wraith knight, however that's actually pretty astounding. I don't see how oyu can think that's terrible?

Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

Lysander is in terminator armour. Please explain why terminator armour means he can't enter a drop pod?

Do you actually read these rules or just make assumptions. Terminators may not enter drop pods because they can't take them as DTs. There is nothing forbidding a TDA captain from entering a DP with its alotted squad.

"Terminators count as two models for the purposes of transport capacity and may not embark upon rhino's or razorbacks."

Y'know what? the FAQ says nothing to the contrary.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I wasn't talking about 140 points worth of kroot killing half your wraith knight, however that's actually pretty astounding. I don't see how oyu can think that's terrible?

For the points on a one-to-one basis, it's not. However, it's also unrealistic. That scenario means the kroot didn't move (as the sniper is heavy), you spent 140 points on a frail troop blob and the Wraithknight blundered into full range. If any of those things don't happen, you do almost nothing. My point was Sniper Kroot are about the worst thing the Wraithknight can face (Riptides can be ID'd by the faux-railguns, plus die in combat; Hammerheadfs don't do close to enough damage and die almost instantly in combat; S5/6 weapons do almost nothing as they wound on 6+, even when they're AP3/2) and still it doesn't care that much. Anyway, my point is this - it will draw fire from the rest of your army as no-one can leave it alive; it wrecks fire support units/tanks/any vehicles/MCs. Sure, it will die every game. Is that really a huge loss to you? You've drawn 1500+ points of firepower and barely died. That's 1500 points not firing at your troops, other shooting elements or HQs. Heck, if you want to see how good that is look at jy2's last batrep and replace a Riptide+fire warrior squad with a Wraithlord. What armies could deal with that if the MCs pushed forwards? Not many. So yeah, it changes the game because everyone now needs to be able to deal with T8 W6 fast MCs which currently, not a lot of tournament winning armies can do.