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Skullhammer wrote:

Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
.

All Daemons have Invulns, so pseudo-rending has no effect. Also, why would GD need 6s to wound? They can smash for S10, and wound on 2+.

Well, for a BT you might not want to do that, since all To Wound rolls(for him) of 6 are ID.

Lucarikx

Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

my first impression of the WK is that it would be amazing with fortune. but it appears that everyone else has a different opinion...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

I believe he is talking about the guns that the Wraith guard have. They are star 10 ap1 and cause instant death on a to-wound roll of a 6.

Skullhammer wrote:
Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

And 6's to wound from BT is instal kill....

And Lysander has no issue in fitting in a drop pod by the way.

MarkyMark wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

And 6's to wound from BT is instal kill....

And Lysander has no issue in fitting in a drop pod by the way.

Thankyou. I thought I was going crazy for a minute there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

Who seriously uses sniper drones in the quantities needed though? Unless you're putting them next to an Ethereal and the Wraithknight inexplicably advances again, you're doing almost no damage. Even then, you need 9 Sniper Drones to kill one. Who are these people taking at least 148 points worth of sniper drones in a single unit over an Ionhead/Sky Ray? Why are they when against anything else the Hammerhead is statistically superior (or Sky Ray for AA support)? If they kill your spotter, you are now BS 2 and really bad, so he needs to either be very protected or there needs to be more than one, pushing up the points again. The Heavy Wraithcannons of the Wraithknight ID on a 6 due to their "Disort" special rule. Pretty scary vs MCs if you ask me, especially as they're 36" range. As I said, it's not unkillable, it's just ridiculously hard to do so without list tailoring.

If the cannon is only 36" range, a Riptide will decimate the WK with its 72" range.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
If the cannon is only 36" range, a Riptide will decimate the WK with its 72" range.

Lucarikx

On a 6'x4'? Really? You think firing 3 S7 AP2 shots at 72" will stop it? 36" is enough that unless the Riptide is in the corner, it will be in range. If the Riptide is in the corner, your job is done anyway - it's wasting its shots to rarely hurt you (even at BS5 with no cover the riptide averages less than 1 wound per turn) and you're advancing. Come on, the Riptide is good but it's not an MC destroyer by any means.

I like how people bring out the x kills x arguments again.

1: Kroot are not a threat. You have range on them, you have mobility on them, and no one fields kroot snipers in quantity.

2: Anything with krak grenades CANNOT use "our weapons are useless". They have a weapon, the grenade, that can be used. However, you need 36 grenades to put a single wound on the wraithknight at ws4-.

3: While DE are a problem, no one else has poisoned range weapons that are a threat. Even nids arent going to be a problem as you can move faster than they can. Plus the gaunts are required to be within 6" of the terv to have poison.

4: Who takes sternguard anymore? I havent seen anyone fielding them in over a year. Putting lysander and sternguard in a pod is stupid. 500+ points in a pod to not even kill the wraithknight before you get tied up in combat.

5: Beast killer shells need a vanquisher that hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, and then possible cover saves. In addition to being an obvious threat, its only usable in one army in the game, the armored company. With the look of the new eldar codex, there are all sorts of toys to deal with high armor value.

6: This thing is harder to kill than a tervigon with IA. Especially since it can simply avoid melee. Most people bitch to no end at how hard tervigons are to deal with.

7: MC vs MC this thing could have problems, but why would i let any MC without wings engage this thing? Its a jump MC. Also, very few MCs have grenades, meaning sitting this thing in terrain is allowing me to hit first. That removes DP from the list of threats.

I think people are dramatically underestimating the resiliency of T8 and W6, particularly when you can heal it's wounds via Locks. You can torrent down a Riptide with small arms fire, small arms fire can't even touch the WK. That's a pretty massive difference.

I'd agree that a Wraithknight is very durable. However, I don't know that I feel it is worth taking. 240 points base gives you two heavy wraithcannons, which are pretty decent. Adding on Scatter Lasers costs 20 points each, and you cannot fire all four weapons. Even if it could, the role is relatively confused. What is it ideally targeting?

The Eldar HS section is crowded, and the Vaul's Wraith Support Battery is so incredible that it will be hard to pass on them, especially for an overpriced MC.

My 2 cents is that regardless of the price and the toughness debate, the real shame is that this is in the HS section instead of the Elite or (less likely) FA section like Tau Riptide is.

As for the cost.. I dunno 240 or so is about what you'd pay for a fully kitted out Riptide correct? So I can see how that number came about. But the Tau Riptide feels much more.. difficult to kill I suppose considering the Novacharge rules, 5+ FNP from the Stimulant (did say fully kitted out) skyfire or interceptor rules, and 2+ Armor save. And for those that say that you lose ML support from the Riptide that's true. But you gain psyker support from the Warlock/Seer side of their dex.

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

Right I am not going to pretend I know the rules for the wraith knight other than those that I have read on this thread. I am a long time fan and player of eldar I particularly love wraith constructs and anything harlequin but there are a few points that I simply want to bring to peoples attention:

1. If it has no cover or invulnerable what about paying 75pts for a skyshield? If you are playing objectives you can place one of yours on this and have the wraith knight and some troops stood atop it shielded giving everyone 4+ invulnerable also anyone charging is initiative 1 unless they have grenades.

2. Everyone seems to be saying this unit could take it out in two turns, for only half the points. But what doesn't APPEAR to be taken into account is the shots it can put down itself. From what I have heard it can put down 3 str6 ap2 small blasts. Those could easily destroy most 10 man units in a single turn and if you are a risk to the wraith knight then its probably going to be targeting that unit with those big guns/sword/other nasties I am not aware of.

3. When people are shooting the wraith knight I believe it is a jump MC so its going to be fast and maneuverable so it might be able to break line of sight (unlikely i know but possible), or get out of range.

4. Even when/ if it goes down to do so it will take a lot of fire power off the rest of the army which means that other wraiths, aspects or tanks can get into position alive(!) and then do what they were supposed to.

5. Sure it might be cheaper and more effective to take two wraith lords but it also takes up an extra heavy support slot which i have heard are just as crammed as before meaning every slot has to be as damaging as possible even if it isn't the most efficient use of points.

P.S I am not making sweeping statements I know there will always be exceptions to what I have said. Also I have said that my knowledge is purely from this thread on the wraith knight so if it is incorrect I apologise as nothing has even been released in England yet. Also I am not arguing with people I just want people to see all points.

Just some thoughts. While expensive, it will draw fire away from the rest of your army. Who doesn't like taking down a giant robot? It makes you feel very accomplished taking a MC that big down. Drop Podding things near it? Sure you've killed it, but that leaves your units in the open now.

Things that come to mind that can take it are basically anything with poison or snipers. Nurgle comes to mind. Plague Bearers and Drones have poisoned attacks. Long Fangs with Rune Priests. Tyranids with poisoned attacks. How's its leadership? Multiple Psychic Shrieks, Pink Horrors with Tzeentch Heralds. 4-6D6 shots that reroll and are Str 6. Vector Strikes from Bloodthirster, Heldrake, and Lord of Change. Force Weapons. Power Laws, Dreads, Kills Kans. Las cannons. This is just turning into a list of what can hurt it now. . .

Once again, it'll take some focus taking it out. And a lot of those things can be taken out by the rest of your army. If you've got one already, let us know how it goes. If you haven't got one yet, wait and see how they do. Personally, 300 points is too much for a MC that doesn't fly. If there was a way to add mech wings to it, I'd say it would be worth it. But as it stands, insert tall reference here, anything will be able to shoot at it.

 JGrand wrote:

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

Totally agreed JGrand. I was really only stacking it up against it's current dex/most recent competitor in the new MC department. Which to be fair, everyone is pretty much in love with as the versatility and impact of the Riptide is quite nice on the Tau codex. I'm certain GW was shooting for a similar impact with the Wraithknight, although it seems they may have fallen a bit short without giving it a proper low Armor save or some form of Invuln save. Or, changing nothing in its statline/wargear and giving it It Will Not Die.

In fact, I'm kind of shocked it doesn't have IWND considering the rest of the statline.

culsandar wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....

Plasma? Try 20 bolter shots that wound on 2s. Per pod. And anything worth doing is worth doubling. Yeah, you can pick him up now. If he still has a wound or two, a couple of stray tactical missles will finish the job. People always forget about the Sternguard's special ammo.

20 shots will take 3.7 wounds off of him. So it will take more than a stray tactical krak missile to take him down. 2 squads could reasonably do it in one turn, but that is what 600 points to put down a 250 point model. Sternguard all clustered together to get into rapid fire range arent difficult for eldar to kill.

10 sternguard in a pod are great, but they die like 10 marines off in a distant land after they hit their target.

I think 10 scouts with camo cloaks sniping him every turn would be a better buy. They will get him in 4 turns, cost far less, and can camp a home objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JGrand wrote:

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

at least it is str10, no need to smash.
init4 helps a bit

FEARLESS is huge. Chasing a riptide down is hilarious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreyDragoon wrote:
My 2 cents is that regardless of the price and the toughness debate, the real shame is that this is in the HS section instead of the Elite or (less likely) FA section like Tau Riptide is.

As for the cost.. I dunno 240 or so is about what you'd pay for a fully kitted out Riptide correct? So I can see how that number came about. But the Tau Riptide feels much more.. difficult to kill I suppose considering the Novacharge rules, 5+ FNP from the Stimulant (did say fully kitted out) skyfire or interceptor rules, and 2+ Armor save. And for those that say that you lose ML support from the Riptide that's true. But you gain psyker support from the Warlock/Seer side of their dex.

The riptide is much much much better. 2+ saves save it from a lot of AT, and posion. The 5++ standard is great. The possibility of a 3++ make it dam near unkillable that turn. It's weapons area also better. Pie plate of doom is awesome. The heavy burst cannon is also awesome if you charge it.

Just because the riptide is better, does not mean that the WK sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

culsandar wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

Per Sternguard. You noticed I mentioned two. But in reality finding enough AP 3 in the rest of a list to deal the remaining 2.25 isn't hard. Eldar players need to rely on proper placement, cover choices, and bubblewrap to get the most out of their 300 pt MC. Try not to spread this misconception that T8 W6 is enough.

only half of the drop pods come down turn 1 in drop pod assault. So you would need 3 pods to get 2 units down turn one.

As has been mentioned before, dropping down next to eldar is a bad idea. With the new rules, an objective camping guardian squad can wipe your sternguard the turn after they land.

I wonder if there's a way to make a guard blob have rending flashlights....

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Area terrain is a very clear rule right? If so then they are not being that guy. They are playing by the rules.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Well... except people are well within reason to talk about terrain prior to the start of the game. If someone said they don't think a crater "area terrain" should give a cover save to non-infantry models, I would be hard pressed to disagree.

Playing CSM and GK I'm thinking I'll probably have to ignore it. All I can think about is a Wraithknight getting Invisibility cast on it every turn. I'll just try to kill everything but the WK and not get tabled by whatever firepower it brings.

This is all off the cuff of course. I don't know the rules for this thing. Everything is getting bigger while all I want is more troop oriented games.

Wait...wouldn't having S6 guns mean that the MC best able to tank it's shots...would be another wrath knight?

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

Pretty much. The terrain rules are a framework which is supposed to be filled out between you and your opponent. I know I wouldn't let Wraithknights hide in a crater (now a forest on the other hand...).

Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

 Shandara wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

Doesnt matter how fast it is, a drop pod right in front of you means I hit you, the line is also 24 inches, Im not sure it can get that far unless its a flier. Also if its going to be monstrous it will be -1 initiative. Now if they use some psykers that deny me or make me roll 3d6 test there might be some problems but if it really has a low leadership SW players wont care how big or scary he is.

I dont understand what people's complaint is about the WK getting cover from area terrain. Its right in the book, all non-vehicles get cover from area terrain. Only vehicles have any exception. Im sorry i play by the rules dictated in the book. The ones that every other army gets to play by. Just because they dont make sense..... this is 40k remember. Half the rules in the game dont make sense.

The skyshield is even MORE explicit in its rules. EVERYTHING gets a 4++ inside it, even in melee. This includes tanks or MCs.