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astro_nomicon wrote:
Wraithcannons (S10 AP2, Distort) are 36", Suncannon (S6 AP2 Heavy 3 Blast) is 48"

didnt realize suncannons were 48" still they arent terribly good at killing AV10-11 vehicles. A scatter laser is more effective.

The Iyanden supplement may have me reconsider the Wraithknights.

Being able to be the Warlord, with a good Warlord table, as well as one of the items healing wounds back on a 3+, seems pretty good. You'll never be giving up Slay the Warlord, that's for sure.

Exergy wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Fleshgauntless are getting more and more popular. Posion and ID can be potent.

The fastest you could move is 6+6+12. Thats assuming you get max movement, no terrain, and your placement is perfect. Now, if you are running a DE melee force, im going to be staying as far away as possible from you. You will NEVER see melee, i dont know what you people dont get about this. 12" move+ 48" guns. I will never let you get close and will be deployed at the back edge. You are far more likely to shoot the WK down with venoms, but in that case you are essentially putting your whole army in range for him and maybe a cousin or two to wipe your venoms off the board.

so you flat out right next to the wraithknight. If he runs, he gets 12" + a possible run away. Still in range of a lot of DE charges.

what guns does it have that are 48" range. (I know eldar missile launchers, but scatter lasers, starcannons, shurkien cannons, brightlances, and wraithcannons are all shorter range) I thought it's guns were 36" range max. 30" against DE with night shields.

Except that ignores the rest of the Eldar army supporting the WK, any half decent player is going to realise that it needs to be protected against DE (not that its useless, its still going to drop Venoms quite nicely) and put it in a position where it can be supported. Also if you are that close to the WK it could easily charge you as well (it can pop the Venom itself if it has to), and I5 goes before any Haemonculi/Coven type unit so it could just end up squashing you before you get a chance to attack.

Sasori wrote:The Iyanden supplement may have me reconsider the Wraithknights.

Being able to be the Warlord, with a good Warlord table, as well as one of the items healing wounds back on a 3+, seems pretty good. You'll never be giving up Slay the Warlord, that's for sure.

Tbh using an MC as your Warlord, particularly one as huge as a WK is very rarely a good idea. It is far easier to avoid Slay the Warlord if the Warlord is an IC, since he can have his squad tank shots from him, can get in transports to hide and generally move around and stay hidden much better. Essentially with an MC you are just relying on his durability, rather than other units durability and mobility. Its only going to be worth considering if the WK gets something else meaningful out of the exchange (like becoming a character).

Well he does get 5 spiritseers rolling for renew. That could get pretty awesome in a wraithlord/wraithknight list.

Tbh using an MC as your Warlord, particularly one as huge as a WK is very rarely a good idea. It is far easier to avoid Slay the Warlord if the Warlord is an IC, since he can have his squad tank shots from him, can get in transports to hide and generally move around and stay hidden much better. Essentially with an MC you are just relying on his durability, rather than other units durability and mobility. Its only going to be worth considering if the WK gets something else meaningful out of the exchange (like becoming a character).

I think it's situational, but I can see a Wraithknight, with his superior statline, and excellent maneuverability just as survivable as an Eldar IC HQ. The WK can also benefit from the healing Wraithforge item, while any other Eldar HQ would rely on Renewer. The WK also isn't as vulnerable to things like ID, and challenges.

While it would be bad in some cases, I don't think it's near as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

 zephoid wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.
Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
Requires melee
requires melee
requires melee
requires melee

How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

A large portion of the wraith knights's points are for it's value as a cc unit. If it's just going to sit back and plink at 48' away the knight's owner isn't going to make good use of it's points. Plague zombies, GK, nids, and orks are perfectly ok with a knight playing patty cake at 48" while they slaughter the rest of your army. If you want to get in close and cc a vulnerable target the knight then becomes vulnerable to a charge or retaliation charge from nearby supporting units.

And to answer another question:How common are d weapons?
Answer:Expect them in almost every eldar list, and the threat range on mechanized wraithguard is 24" for the guns, 20" or so for scythes. Also almost every eldar unit in the codex can autowound and bypass armor on a 6 with monofilament or bladestorm.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.
Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
Requires melee
requires melee
requires melee
requires melee

How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

A large portion of the wraith knights's points are for it's value as a cc unit. If it's just going to sit back and plink at 48' away the knight's owner isn't going to make good use of it's points. Plague zombies, GK, nids, and orks are perfectly ok with a knight playing patty cake at 48" while they slaughter the rest of your army. If you want to get in close and cc a vulnerable target the knight then becomes vulnerable to a charge or retaliation charge from nearby supporting units.

And to answer another question:How common are d weapons?
Answer:Expect them in almost every eldar list, and the threat range on mechanized wraithguard is 24" for the guns, 20" or so for scythes. Also almost every eldar unit in the codex can autowound and bypass armor on a 6 with monofilament or bladestorm.

I would not say a large portion of his points are melee dude...

Think of a fireprism with its one shot and some holofields is like 150 pts, for double its points I can get 3 small blasts a scatter laser for twinlinking an invuln/blind AND I am tough 8 with 6 wounds....oh i can also move 12" and still shoot everything....

I think the melee is not a large part of that value at all.....

It's points are a mix between the 4. Some parts shooting, some parts resilience, some parts mobility, and some parts melee.

Which means most people will absolutely hate it.

Wraith knight is a character can be ID'd, by several weapons in the game. I think its a big juicy target or something you can safely ignore depending on your army.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.
Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
Requires melee
requires melee
requires melee
requires melee

How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

A large portion of the wraith knights's points are for it's value as a cc unit. If it's just going to sit back and plink at 48' away the knight's owner isn't going to make good use of it's points. Plague zombies, GK, nids, and orks are perfectly ok with a knight playing patty cake at 48" while they slaughter the rest of your army. If you want to get in close and cc a vulnerable target the knight then becomes vulnerable to a charge or retaliation charge from nearby supporting units.

And to answer another question:How common are d weapons?
Answer:Expect them in almost every eldar list, and the threat range on mechanized wraithguard is 24" for the guns, 20" or so for scythes. Also almost every eldar unit in the codex can autowound and bypass armor on a 6 with monofilament or bladestorm.

Well this isn't a game where unit A will always face off against unit B. You would hope that the person building the Eldar list has some vague idea about how to play the game, and will build their list with enough anti infantry firepower in other areas. I never expect a WK to kill a Horde unit in assault (although I will throw him into one if I don't need him for other things and doing so would lock up the unit away from objectives) no matter the loadout, but I'm going to include a couple of Nightspinners or Prisms to throw some pie plates around and have plenty of other sources of anti infantry in the rest of my army. You will get games where he one shots a Land Raider or a Greater Daemon, and others where he is facing a wall of infantry where he moves into a support/blocker role, but that's just how this game works. The point is though that with 12" range the WK can pick its fights, the only things that are a major threat to it that it can't avoid completely are DE Venom spam and lists spamming (like 20+) Missiles or Lascannons. Against GKs you run around the Terminators/Dreadknights (while shooting them of course, although you can actually assault to finish either of these units off since you go first) and go after Strikes and anything else which can't wound you without Hammerhand (which means no Force). Against Orks you can go round a flank to get to Lootas (if there is space, you might just get blocked off by a wall of Boyz), use it to deal with Nobz (obviously you don't assault a full unit, but the Klaws still need 4's to wound so you can survive a few return hits) and then lock up a unit turn 4-5 knowing that the Klaw can't kill you before the game ends. Against Nids you target the MCs, you can ID them from shooting and comfortably finish one off in 2 rounds of assault (taking a few wounds in the process).

And yeah its funny how armies often end up having counters to themselves, I realised pretty quickly that Wraithknight vs Wraithknight ranged duels are going to end in tears. Hopefully you can avoid normal Wraithguard though, but its still going to be really annoying when it happens (the same way Nids/Chaos etc losing their MCs will be really annoying lol).

I played against one the other night with my Tzeentch Daemons, it took 4 rounds for the Lord Of Change to kill it in assault. Admittedly my LoC didn't get any good powers or gifts so that would effect the results. The WK is not great in assault but is survivable due to T8 W6.

While its shooting was mostly wasted on my list it effected the game by been just a huge target that I had to deal with. Most of my units couldn't deal with it so the WK leaves you with very little options.

The WK is a great unit for getting Line Breaker & contesting objectives.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
I played against one the other night with my Tzeentch Daemons, it took 4 rounds for the Lord Of Change to kill it in assault. Admittedly my LoC didn't get any good powers or gifts so that would effect the results. The WK is not great in assault but is survivable due to T8 W6.

While its shooting was mostly wasted on my list it effected the game by been just a huge target that I had to deal with. Most of my units couldn't deal with it so the WK leaves you with very little options.

The WK is a great unit for getting Line Breaker & contesting objectives.

Who got the charge? I'm assuming the LoC had at least some buffs, because 1 v 1 with no buffs that combat could easily go to the WK, it has 1 more attack (since the LOC has to smash to reliably wound) with an extra wound and the LOC only has a 5++. If the WK gets the charge on average it should just barely win in the third round, if not the LoC kills it in the 4th round of combat before the WK gets to swing (the WK would finish the LoC in the 4th round as well if it managed to swing).
Obviously in that situation you want the WK firing as often as possible, a single 6 to wound with its shooting and a failed invun and the LoC goes pop.

tgf wrote:
Wraith knight is a character.

No, it is not.

 Sasori wrote:

Tbh using an MC as your Warlord, particularly one as huge as a WK is very rarely a good idea. It is far easier to avoid Slay the Warlord if the Warlord is an IC, since he can have his squad tank shots from him, can get in transports to hide and generally move around and stay hidden much better. Essentially with an MC you are just relying on his durability, rather than other units durability and mobility. Its only going to be worth considering if the WK gets something else meaningful out of the exchange (like becoming a character).

I think it's situational, but I can see a Wraithknight, with his superior statline, and excellent maneuverability just as survivable as an Eldar IC HQ. The WK can also benefit from the healing Wraithforge item, while any other Eldar HQ would rely on Renewer. The WK also isn't as vulnerable to things like ID, and challenges.

While it would be bad in some cases, I don't think it's near as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

I like the idea of using the Wraithknight as the Warlord. With traits, he could be even more survivable. It also adds a further disadvantage to the enemy if they choose to ignore it all game, no Slay the Warlord points. It's already quite difficult for an Iyanden Wraith army to give up First Blood (a popped Waveserpent probably being the most likely, I don't see many Wraithguard units, Wraithlords or Wraithknights being killed in the first turn).

Hopefully, your opponent would try to kill your Warlord and you end the game with having taken 4+ wounds but surviving. That would imply a lot of wasted shots during the course of the game.

tgf wrote:
Wraith knight is a character can be ID'd, by several weapons in the game. I think its a big juicy target or something you can safely ignore depending on your army.

ID can be a problem for your WK, at least against some opponents, including Wraithguard.

 wuestenfux wrote:

tgf wrote:
Wraith knight is a character can be ID'd, by several weapons in the game. I think its a big juicy target or something you can safely ignore depending on your army.

ID can be a problem for your WK, at least against some opponents, including Wraithguard.

Ironically now the worst thing to face with Wraithknights is Wraithguard with D-weapons.

If you ran three WKs, all with Suncannons, and gave them the support of two farseers (or Eldrad interchangably) for guaranteed TL and maybe even fortune, do you think that would work as a solid fire base? I'm thinking that with 3 of them, they'll be too much to handle in a turn or two which has me putting out a minimum of 6 blasts. To compare, I use 3 Fire Prisms for that role at the moment but they seem to die too easily to a stray LC. Worth the 900pts + support points?

 xlEternitylx wrote:
If you ran three WKs, all with Suncannons, and gave them the support of two farseers (or Eldrad interchangably) for guaranteed TL and maybe even fortune, do you think that would work as a solid fire base? I'm thinking that with 3 of them, they'll be too much to handle in a turn or two which has me putting out a minimum of 6 blasts. To compare, I use 3 Fire Prisms for that role at the moment but they seem to die too easily to a stray LC. Worth the 900pts + support points?

You don't need to dedicate the seers for this. You can give them scatter lasers for pretty much guaranteed TL. Whether it would be effective, I don't know.

Suncannon wastes the WK's potential against vehicles. Eldar have plenty of things that kill infantry. We need our HS slots to pop med-heavy tanks.

 zephoid wrote:
Suncannon wastes the WK's potential against vehicles. Eldar have plenty of things that kill infantry. We need our HS slots to pop med-heavy tanks.

They also have plenty of brightlances. Also Fire Dragons and D-cannon Wraiths. Suncannon fries marines and terminators rather nicely, and it comes with the shield.

 Crimson wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Suncannon wastes the WK's potential against vehicles. Eldar have plenty of things that kill infantry. We need our HS slots to pop med-heavy tanks.

They also have plenty of brightlances. Also Fire Dragons and D-cannon Wraiths. Suncannon fries marines and terminators rather nicely, and it comes with the shield.

At a huge pricetag.

 Sasori wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Suncannon wastes the WK's potential against vehicles. Eldar have plenty of things that kill infantry. We need our HS slots to pop med-heavy tanks.

They also have plenty of brightlances. Also Fire Dragons and D-cannon Wraiths. Suncannon fries marines and terminators rather nicely, and it comes with the shield.

At a huge pricetag.

Gah. I like the model but I cannot justify using it in any way.