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2013/06/11 03:33:17
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
I rarely agree with nkelsch this much. Breotan, your last two posts are either pointless spam, bad flamebait, or just not thought through at all.
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Breotan wrote: WarOne, I'm pretty sure arguing sexism in regards to tiny toy soldiers qualifies as First World Problems.
Not to belabor a very silly point, but it is passing possible for someone to have, say, deep policy discussions about the impact of IP law on the development of sustainable antiviral regimes in light of genome drift in sub-Saharan Africa's HIV subtype distributions...
and also like talking about tiny little soldiers.
How about we all agree to limit out discussions of matters to the relevant discussion areas, and in that spirit, talk about miniatures, oh, say, here? What with it being a miniature gaming forum and not our actual jobs.
______________________________________________
And to contribute to this thread (which in fairness is also rather silly), I must say that the really great thing about the TGG campaign is that it presents 3 different archetypes of females.
The Jailbait division, the Kurganovas who bare a rather remarkable resemblance to what might be regarded as real tactical gear.
And the Iron Empire, where femininity is drowned in armor as dehumanizing as Darth Vader's.
It's often said by feminists that they don't want to take anything away, and yet...
Yet is always seems that the only thing they can see is the thing they don't want. TGG would seem an ideal project from a feminist perspective: I can think of no other gaming system that will offer such a continuum of options for representing female characters.
And yet, one can still find the complaints of "oh, chainmail bikinis..."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/11 04:00:24
i find this thread, and men's objections to the sculpts, silly because i'm from the beach, where women choose to wear thongs and tiny tops...
every single RH mini has on more clothes than half the women in my town on any given day...
which is a beautiful thing, because i get to flirt with them in the water, and at my shop...
then i come home and paint Space Marines...
as was pointed out before, it's not like we are talking about a line of minis that are nude, and disempowered, like Vinni's slave girls...
these are empowered women, one faction of whom, happen to look like Tank Girl...
seems more Punk than "stripperific"...
the cries of cheesecake for RH, and even Infinity, don't make sense to me...
when did it become wrong for a man to be attracted to women???
when did it become perverse for a man to like pin-ups, and be spoken of as if he was championing Dutch farm animal porn???
i see women who want to be sexy everyday, by their own choice, not because a man told them to be...
if some women are offended by sexy minis, fine...
let them come in here and protest, but i really don't see what has the dudes in this thread up in arms...
personally, i like my ORC trooper with combat heels from Infinity, and i like the RH line...
it doesn't make me treat my girlfriend with any less respect, and i'm sure as hell not going to turn her down to go have a moment by myself in the closet with my Daktari...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2013/06/11 05:21:41
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
Breotan wrote: WarOne, I'm pretty sure arguing sexism in regards to tiny toy soldiers qualifies as First World Problems.
You've got a point.
It would be like my Vietnamese friend getting upset because minis portray Asians in offensive kung-fu poses or as squinty-eyed, buck-toothed midgets. Big name artists keep trying to explain to him that those stereotypes sell better than competent soldiers who happen to be Asian, and besides, there is no other way to differentiate Asians from non-Asians in 28mm scale. You can't see Epicanthic folds across the table. He might as well just say his Cadians are Asian, even if their facial structure looks obviously Caucasian. Purposely-sculpted Asian minis would never sell enough to pay off their masters and molds, and how many Asian wargamers are there, anyway?
He doesn't get that talking about racism and toy soldiers is just a First World Problem.
EDIT: Jah-Joshua, did you just describe the penal legion as empowered? That seems...odd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 05:25:11
Kanluwen wrote: I have the Sisters of Avelorn/Shadow Warrior kit.
There is a significant difference in terms of the body. It's not illustrated well in the pictures.
Females should have wider hips than shoulders.
No matter how badly illustrated the picture is will not change that very very very basic fact.
GW have much to learn about females. There are simply no reason for Avelorn kit to not have better ratio female bodies.
jah-joshua wrote: i find this thread, and men's objections to the sculpts, silly because i'm from the beach, where women choose to wear thongs and tiny tops...
every single RH mini has on more clothes than half the women in my town on any given day...
which is a beautiful thing, because i get to flirt with them in the water, and at my shop...
then i come home and paint Space Marines...
as was pointed out before, it's not like we are talking about a line of minis that are nude, and disempowered, like Vinni's slave girls...
these are empowered women, one faction of whom, happen to look like Tank Girl...
seems more Punk than "stripperific"...
the cries of cheesecake for RH, and even Infinity, don't make sense to me...
when did it become wrong for a man to be attracted to women???
when did it become perverse for a man to like pin-ups, and be spoken of as if he was championing Dutch farm animal porn???
i see women who want to be sexy everyday, by their own choice, not because a man told them to be...
if some women are offended by sexy minis, fine...
let them come in here and protest, but i really don't see what has the dudes in this thread up in arms...
personally, i like my ORC trooper with combat heels from Infinity, and i like the RH line...
it doesn't make me treat my girlfriend with any less respect, and i'm sure as hell not going to turn her down to go have a moment by myself in the closet with my Daktari...
cheers
jah
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 05:32:57
@Bob: yes, i would consider a woman with a gun to be more empowered then one that is chained up...
though my rant did kind of miss the topic...
in my experience, GW is not very good at sculpting females, so i am not angry (unlike the OP) that GW has left the female Cadians to other companies...
i own most of the females GW has produced, and they are all horrible sculpts, aside from their rarity and collectability...
Lelith is probably their best piece, and the only one i will probably actually paint any time soon...
now that GW lost Juan, who would sculpt good females for them???
Jes does alright, and Darren's new Elf Maiden looks cool...
i know they have Steve Buddle on staff, and he did some great females for his Spyglass line...
i don't know, maybe GW could surprise me and do some good Guard girls...
given their track record with human females, i would say probably not...
i have the female Catachan, and the female Commissar, and they are both pretty bad sculpts, and the Last Chancer girls weren't much better...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2013/06/11 10:37:44
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
Kilkrazy wrote: The fact is, GW are bad at making realistic male sculpts, because they design everything to fit the "heroic 28mm" scale.
GW cannot even make realistic looking SM. Literature and fluff depicts them as having equine features, distorted skulls and facial musculature. I demand realistic looking Genetic Space Freaks™ before we even get to decently proportioned male sculpts, let alone bewbage.
2013/06/11 11:54:39
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
Kanluwen wrote: I have the Sisters of Avelorn/Shadow Warrior kit.
There is a significant difference in terms of the body. It's not illustrated well in the pictures.
Females should have wider hips than shoulders.
No matter how badly illustrated the picture is will not change that very very very basic fact.
GW have much to learn about females.
I've met plenty of women who do not have wider hips than shoulders. I believe it's referred to as inverted triangle body shape and is fairly common, especially among athletic girls.
So, not a basic fact then...
2013/06/11 13:26:36
Subject: The impact if the Raging Heroes kickstarter and representations of females in gaming
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
Productive, try to insult anyone who disagrees with you and paint them as ignorant.
Some of us would rather realistic representations of females in combat. Some of us don't feel the need to sexualize our figure collection which is often used with kids. And no matter how you slice it, It does objectify women, underboob is not empowering and if I had half those minis on my desk at work, I would be cited for sexual harassment.
Look up Brosie the Riviter... Men as well as women were bothered by the situation.
No one is saying these models can't or shouldn't be made, it is more of certain people saying "How dare you not like them or have a problem with them? These are the female models we all want!"
Well they aren't. If there was a full line of realistic females in combat which I wouldn't be ashamed buying for my nieces, I would get them. RH is absurd and not empowering at all. Hasslefree miniature's female sculpts are the perfect example of realistic and equal representations, and that is what I want to see more of. (I totally know hasslefree has all sorts of nude and cheesecake, which is fine, but they also make alternatives which is also good)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 13:36:31
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2013/06/11 13:39:09
Subject: The impact if the Raging Heroes kickstarter and representations of females in gaming
I agree with Jah and Lunua though, because it goes back to what I said earlier about the chick wanting to ban lads mags.
Thats FHM, not porn or anything.
We have fething minority rules in our nations, because we have really aggressive, really well organized little mobs who make all the rules, because the majority just don't get up in arms about everything.
At the end of the day, the vast majority of women are not offended by lads mags, or models with their tits out.
So.. what's the problem? If you are a militant feminist, dont play them, dont touch them, don't look at them, and whinge about it so more realistic/masculine models of women get made, but dont proper spit your dummy out about something that most women don't get themselves worked up over.
I don't like T&A models either, I dont own any and I wouldn't buy one, I get nothing out of them considering I play SM and I've got no interest in painting them anyway.. and as for looking, I've got wway better T&A stuff to look at than minis.
I just don't see the massive fuss, and most women don't either lets have it said. I certainly cant understand all the men getting offended on behalf of the tiny amount of women that might be offended, that makes feth all sense at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 15:38:05
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2013/06/11 15:38:46
Subject: The impact if the Raging Heroes kickstarter and representations of females in gaming
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
Productive, try to insult anyone who disagrees with you and paint them as ignorant.
Some of us would rather realistic representations of females in combat. Some of us don't feel the need to sexualize our figure collection which is often used with kids. And no matter how you slice it, It does objectify women, underboob is not empowering and if I had half those minis on my desk at work, I would be cited for sexual harassment.
Look up Brosie the Riviter... Men as well as women were bothered by the situation.
No one is saying these models can't or shouldn't be made, it is more of certain people saying "How dare you not like them or have a problem with them? These are the female models we all want!"
Well they aren't. If there was a full line of realistic females in combat which I wouldn't be ashamed buying for my nieces, I would get them. RH is absurd and not empowering at all. Hasslefree miniature's female sculpts are the perfect example of realistic and equal representations, and that is what I want to see more of. (I totally know hasslefree has all sorts of nude and cheesecake, which is fine, but they also make alternatives which is also good)
Glossing over the silly claims presented, the problem with the "realistic" female soldier is...
That figure looks pretty much exactly like my friends in the service. Who are of average human build and very male. The style of male figures has led meany to forget the average infantryman in reality is not a 19' bull-necked juggernaut with biceps like tree trunks. In a universe of He-Man men, a realistic figure like that merely looks like a boy or handsome youth. And thus, in order to have an unquestionably recognizably female character, it must be exaggerated.
Hence, sculpted breastplates and so on, exaggerations in service to a greater goal, of making the female characters recognizable as female.
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
Productive, try to insult anyone who disagrees with you and paint them as ignorant.
Some of us would rather realistic representations of females in combat. Some of us don't feel the need to sexualize our figure collection which is often used with kids. And no matter how you slice it, It does objectify women, underboob is not empowering and if I had half those minis on my desk at work, I would be cited for sexual harassment.
Look up Brosie the Riviter... Men as well as women were bothered by the situation.
No one is saying these models can't or shouldn't be made, it is more of certain people saying "How dare you not like them or have a problem with them? These are the female models we all want!"
Well they aren't. If there was a full line of realistic females in combat which I wouldn't be ashamed buying for my nieces, I would get them. RH is absurd and not empowering at all. Hasslefree miniature's female sculpts are the perfect example of realistic and equal representations, and that is what I want to see more of. (I totally know hasslefree has all sorts of nude and cheesecake, which is fine, but they also make alternatives which is also good)
Glossing over the silly claims presented, the problem with the "realistic" female soldier is...
That figure looks pretty much exactly like my friends in the service. Who are of average human build and very male. The style of male figures has led meany to forget the average infantryman in reality is not a 19' bull-necked juggernaut with biceps like tree trunks. In a universe of He-Man men, a realistic figure like that merely looks like a boy or handsome youth. And thus, in order to have an unquestionably recognizably female character, it must be exaggerated.
Hence, sculpted breastplates and so on, exaggerations in service to a greater goal, of making the female characters recognizable as female.
Yeah that was my point, with minis, they are so small, you can't even tell the difference between a man and a woman if they are ready for combat.. you can't in real life! I used to see USMC together in Baghdad and from more than 50 yards away you couldn't tell the difference in ballistic goggles, body armour, webbing and such, so what's the point anyway?
Maybe they make them super exaggeratedly female so you can tell the difference on the tabletop?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2013/06/11 16:00:18
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
I just don't see the massive fuss, and most women don't either lets have it said. I certainly cant understand all the men getting offended on behalf of the tiny amount of women that might be offended, that makes feth all sense at all.
It's a sliding scale though.
My wife bought me the first Werner Klocke 'Army Brat' model because I love that figure and she will one day be a counts-as Sly in my imperial guard. My wife rolled her eyes at the model but said 'sure, I can see why you like it, it's cute'.
Then again, she was not amused at the 'eldar rape scene' diorama, because whilst yes you can say these things happen in war, so does 'child covered in agent orange, burning alive' and I'd no more want to see that as a diorama in a fantasy game, some aspects of war are things we'd rather just leave out of our games and painting, no matter how 'dark' we want them. There's a reason why folks want a framed picture of a hurricane or spitfire hanging in the living room and not a well painted oil of Belsen prison camp inmates digging their own graves.
I think the 'tits on armor' is fine, it actually shows they are girls, it's a visual clue for something standing 28mm high. I find bared breasts a bit stupid looking and reeking of that basement dweller stereotype, although strangely I own and am not bothered by the daemonettes, perhaps because they are a succubus/eldritch thing and so the breasts are part of the model's background and lore and make sense.
I think attractive minis is to be expected, it's all mostly harmless. I think certain things, and brother vinni's Ukrainian slave girl, not for it's sculpt, which I find a bit ott, but for it's naming, given the terrible problem of female abduction in the Ukraine, and also it's depiction of an actual woman imprisoned for opposing Russian interests, cross a line of decency that puts the fairly poor reputation of the hobby into a worse light and I find to be in extremely poor taste.
To the raging heroes minis? Haven't seen them 'in the flesh' yet, but I do know I love the drawings, especially the convicts, and I've been a tank girl fan since I bought the first edition of Deadline, she came out of the Riotgrrrl movement and a post-punk sexually liberated, openly violent and fun seeking female youth in the early 90s. Nothing exploitative about it, more liberating really.
2013/06/11 16:10:42
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
I just don't see the massive fuss, and most women don't either lets have it said. I certainly cant understand all the men getting offended on behalf of the tiny amount of women that might be offended, that makes feth all sense at all.
It's a sliding scale though.
My wife bought me the first Werner Klocke 'Army Brat' model because I love that figure and she will one day be a counts-as Sly in my imperial guard. My wife rolled her eyes at the model but said 'sure, I can see why you like it, it's cute'.
Then again, she was not amused at the 'eldar rape scene' diorama, because whilst yes you can say these things happen in war, so does 'child covered in agent orange, burning alive' and I'd no more want to see that as a diorama in a fantasy game, some aspects of war are things we'd rather just leave out of our games and painting, no matter how 'dark' we want them. There's a reason why folks want a framed picture of a hurricane or spitfire hanging in the living room and not a well painted oil of Belsen prison camp inmates digging their own graves.
I think the 'tits on armor' is fine, it actually shows they are girls, it's a visual clue for something standing 28mm high. I find bared breasts a bit stupid looking and reeking of that basement dweller stereotype, although strangely I own and am not bothered by the daemonettes, perhaps because they are a succubus/eldritch thing and so the breasts are part of the model's background and lore and make sense.
I think attractive minis is to be expected, it's all mostly harmless. I think certain things, and brother vinni's Ukrainian slave girl, not for it's sculpt, which I find a bit ott, but for it's naming, given the terrible problem of female abduction in the Ukraine, and also it's depiction of an actual woman imprisoned for opposing Russian interests, cross a line of decency that puts the fairly poor reputation of the hobby into a worse light and I find to be in extremely poor taste.
To the raging heroes minis? Haven't seen them 'in the flesh' yet, but I do know I love the drawings, especially the convicts, and I've been a tank girl fan since I bought the first edition of Deadline, she came out of the Riotgrrrl movement and a post-punk sexually liberated, openly violent and fun seeking female youth in the early 90s. Nothing exploitative about it, more liberating really.
I agree almost entirely, I specifically mentioned BV earlier in the thread, because that gak was massively out of order, especially as it was supposed to be a serving politician, it really stunk of old school Soviet propaganda as well, and I wouldn't buy anything he made, because, yeah, why would a soldier fully have her baps out anyway!?
My point was simply that if smelly basement dwellers want to buy baps out models, then they should be allowed... Obviously I wouldn't say the same about honking rape scenes and such, but I don't think anybody did.
I don't see an issue with slutty models is the point is all, and I think we are in the realms of minority rule if we say as much. My missus would think I was a bit of a sad bastard If I bought some of those ridiculous .. er.. I don't even remember the name now.. what was that "boutique horror" Kickstarter that was up a few months back? Tits out Monster horror?
Well, you know what I mean.. I think that gak is laughable for a grown man to want to own personally, but I don't have a problem with its existence, and most women don't either. To answer the thread, then yes there are some negative female representations in gaming, but so what? There are negative male representations too, meanwhile, little girls are having circumcisions at the hands of elderly Muslims IN BRITAIN, Afghan girls are getting acid thrown at them and shot in the head for writing, Africa is rape central.. as many people have said, I just think its a really facile discussion considering exactly what goes on in the world today.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2013/06/11 16:16:18
Subject: The impact if the Raging Heroes kickstarter and representations of females in gaming
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
Productive, try to insult anyone who disagrees with you and paint them as ignorant.
Some of us would rather realistic representations of females in combat. Some of us don't feel the need to sexualize our figure collection which is often used with kids. And no matter how you slice it, It does objectify women, underboob is not empowering and if I had half those minis on my desk at work, I would be cited for sexual harassment.
Look up Brosie the Riviter... Men as well as women were bothered by the situation.
No one is saying these models can't or shouldn't be made, it is more of certain people saying "How dare you not like them or have a problem with them? These are the female models we all want!"
Well they aren't. If there was a full line of realistic females in combat which I wouldn't be ashamed buying for my nieces, I would get them. RH is absurd and not empowering at all. Hasslefree miniature's female sculpts are the perfect example of realistic and equal representations, and that is what I want to see more of. (I totally know hasslefree has all sorts of nude and cheesecake, which is fine, but they also make alternatives which is also good)
Glossing over the silly claims presented, the problem with the "realistic" female soldier is...
That figure looks pretty much exactly like my friends in the service. Who are of average human build and very male. The style of male figures has led meany to forget the average infantryman in reality is not a 19' bull-necked juggernaut with biceps like tree trunks. In a universe of He-Man men, a realistic figure like that merely looks like a boy or handsome youth. And thus, in order to have an unquestionably recognizably female character, it must be exaggerated.
Hence, sculpted breastplates and so on, exaggerations in service to a greater goal, of making the female characters recognizable as female.
The feminine aspect of that sculpt is purely the pose. The way the hips are held, in particular. Which is silly, since the appropriate ways to handle infantry weapons change only minutely with respect to gender, and what differences there are exist primarily due to women tending to a lower center of gravity.
2013/06/11 16:35:16
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
mattyrm wrote: I agree almost entirely, I specifically mentioned BV earlier in the thread, because that gak was massively out of order, especially as it was supposed to be a serving politician, it really stunk of old school Soviet propaganda as well, and I wouldn't buy anything he made, because, yeah, why would a soldier fully have her baps out anyway!?
My point was simply that if smelly basement dwellers want to buy baps out models, then they should be allowed... Obviously I wouldn't say the same about honking rape scenes and such, but I don't think anybody did.
I don't see an issue with slutty models is the point is all, and I think we are in the realms of minority rule if we say as much. My missus would think I was a bit of a sad bastard If I bought some of those ridiculous .. er.. I don't even remember the name now.. what was that "boutique horror" Kickstarter that was up a few months back? Tits out Monster horror?
Well, you know what I mean.. I think that gak is laughable for a grown man to want to own personally, but I don't have a problem with its existence, and most women don't either. To answer the thread, then yes there are some negative female representations in gaming, but so what? There are negative male representations too, meanwhile, little girls are having circumcisions at the hands of elderly Muslims IN BRITAIN, Afghan girls are getting acid thrown at them and shot in the head for writing, Africa is rape central.. as many people have said, I just think its a really facile discussion considering exactly what goes on in the world today.
I think you're thinking of kingdom death and that ridiculous 'wetnurse' willy/boobs monster that was really well sculpted but also entirely daft and a bit disgusting. It's telling that it sold out in it's first incarnation as fast as it did.
I personally groan inward when I see that stuff, not because it personally offends, but that it does offend my wife, who's been taking faltering steps into the hobby and who really doesn't like the portrayal of sexual assault as titillation (pardon obvious pun...), I would personally love there to be far more women in wargaming and roleplaying and think they bring much to both hobbies and can see how turned off both my wife and her friends become when confronted with 'boob covered rape monsters' or 'nekkid feth slaves from east europe'.
We are becoming better at this, the stereotypes are dying back, but it's taking a long time, due in part to a continuing adding to the ranks of adolescent males and the continued contributions of some grown men who will never know what it's like to enjoy the company of women, so want tiny erotic dolls to play with. If we could lose the most extreme stuff, the nasty stuff, I don't think many women would begrudge the bubblegum.
On the very last point, there's two sides to that, yes in comparison to real world issues, it's a minor thing, but then again, it can be seen as adding to the overall, reinforcing stereotypes that continue to place women as objects, possessions and property. As I said, I want more women in the hobby, I think they can contribute enormously, we are effectively keeping out about 50% of the population and I would like to see what they could bring to the table, gaming, designing, painting etc, rather than hanging a 'boys only' sign on the treehouse.
2013/06/11 16:56:07
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
I think you're thinking of kingdom death and that ridiculous 'wetnurse' willy/boobs monster that was really well sculpted but also entirely daft and a bit disgusting. It's telling that it sold out in it's first incarnation as fast as it did.
I personally groan inward when I see that stuff, not because it personally offends, but that it does offend my wife, who's been taking faltering steps into the hobby and who really doesn't like the portrayal of sexual assault as titillation (pardon obvious pun...), I would personally love there to be far more women in wargaming and roleplaying and think they bring much to both hobbies and can see how turned off both my wife and her friends become when confronted with 'boob covered rape monsters' or 'nekkid feth slaves from east europe'. ...
With due respect, especially to your wife, the notion that because you find the KD:M aesthetic "daft and a bit disgusting", therefore the quick sellout is an indictment of the consumer is more then just a bit tendentious.
The line of artistic inheritance from Geiger to KD is simple enough to trace, representing as it does a very well established archetype in horror imagery.
Moreover, given the number of people in the comments section of KD:M that said they were a) female and b) enraptured by the models including the female models, it is passing possible that you are not entirely well situated to make pronouncements regarding the likes and dislikes of the female populace.
With due respect, especially to your wife, the notion that because you find the KD:M aesthetic "daft and a bit disgusting", therefore the quick sellout is an indictment of the consumer is more then just a bit tendentious.
The line of artistic inheritance from Geiger to KD is simple enough to trace, representing as it does a very well established archetype in horror imagery.
Moreover, given the number of people in the comments section of KD:M that said they were a) female and b) enraptured by the models including the female models, it is passing possible that you are not entirely well situated to make pronouncements regarding the likes and dislikes of the female populace.
Kingdom Death owes far more to Urotsukidoji than Giger.
Tentacle porn is fairly popular in it's niche, I don't begrudge people indulging in it, I'd just rather they kept it out of the wider wargaming model scene and developed some nice quiet corner of the internet to go swap figures covered in genitals fething each other.
Also, some people on a kickstarter saying they are girls that really like the models (and I don't doubt it, certain KD minis are phenomenally beautiful) does not equal your average 15-30 year old women in the street being stopped and asked 'what do you think of this mountain of tits with a face and three cocks with it's naked female birthing slaves?' having an adverse reaction to it. To suggest that because you found a women somewhere who said 'that's cool' means that I as a man cannot therefore have validity calling it's likely reaction from most women negative, is as silly as it is tenuous.
2013/06/11 17:13:15
Subject: The impact if the Raging Heroes kickstarter and representations of females in gaming
Hmm and I respect that! a man doesn't get freaked out by female sculpt like some over protective mother,nor does he act like
a 40 year old virgin, nicely said jah.
(nkelsh) Productive, try to insult anyone who disagrees with you and paint them as ignorant.
(me) seriously, nkelsch, how many soapboxes are you standing on...
Luna's post wasn't insulting anyone, or painting anyone as ignorant, but simply respecting my opinion, just as i respect yours...
the problem is that you are stating your opinions as if they are facts...
this is a discussion of subjective opinions, not cold hard facts, and honestly, in my post i was saying that i am the ignorant one...
i honestly don't understand the problem with RH, or even see that there is one...
(nkelsch) Some of us would rather realistic representations of females in combat. Some of us don't feel the need to sexualize our figure collection which is often used with kids. And no matter how you slice it, It does objectify women, underboob is not empowering and if I had half those minis on my desk at work, I would be cited for sexual harassment.
(me) i understand that you would like more realistic female soldier, and i agree...
Hasslefree is doing some great sculpts, as you pointed out...
i don't use my minis with kids, i paint in the privacy of my own home, so have a different perspective
the way i slice it, minis like TGG do not objectify women, because i don't objectify women...
i treat everyone as an individual, and in the culture i live in women of all shapes and sizes embrace their sexuality...
sexuality is a part of daily life, not something to hide in a closet, and should be embraced, in my opinion...
i honestly don't see how a bit of underboob is as offensive as a nude slave girl, or even offensive at all...
breasts are nothing to be ashamed of, but then i live in a culture were breast feeding in public is normal and natural...
having lived in places like South Beach, Holland, Sweden, and France, where women go topless on the beach and in parks, i just don't find myself getting worked up over some underboob...
i totally get your point about work...
work and sexuality don't need to mix unless you work in the sex trade...
fortunately, i own a surf shop, where women come in in tiny bikinis, and men in nothing but board shorts...
my girlfriend gets to enjoy the beefcake, and she's not offended by the cheesecake...
she actually appreciates a beautiful female body just as much as i do...
notice i say appreciate, not drool over...
there is not a single mini at my workplace...
it's not a game store, it's a surf shop...
i leave Lelith, and my Space Marines at home...
Look up Brosie the Riviter... Men as well as women were bothered by the situation.
i did look up Brosie...
drawn by a man...
hmm, interesting...
as to anyone who had a problem with it, they must have missed the point about equality and empowerment...
the woman that came up with the idea says a lot of positive things in her interview, and even mentions a lack of backlash...
(nkelsch) No one is saying these models can't or shouldn't be made, it is more of certain people saying "How dare you not like them or have a problem with them? These are the female models we all want!"
Well they aren't. If there was a full line of realistic females in combat which I wouldn't be ashamed buying for my nieces, I would get them. RH is absurd and not empowering at all. Hasslefree miniature's female sculpts are the perfect example of realistic and equal representations, and that is what I want to see more of. (I totally know hasslefree has all sorts of nude and cheesecake, which is fine, but they also make alternatives which is also good)
(me) i don't remember anyone saying "how dare you not like them", but i do see people saying if you don't like it don't buy it...
anyone shoving their values down the throat of someone else is a bad thing, in my opinion, no matter which side of the equation they are on...
these may not be the female models you want, but some other people obviously don't share your opinion...
i don't find RH minis to be absurd at all, but they are cool (to me), and some of them are sexy...
i don't buy minis for my niece, so i have a different perspective on this issue than you do...
i agree that Hasslefree does a great job of giving us some more realistic female soldiers...
my question is, would you let your niece freely browse their website, knowing they have fully on nude minis???
are you praising Hasslefree's Harem Girls, while attacking RH for producing Witch Elves and Tank Girl look-alikes???
the sculpt you posted below is a great mini, and i definitely hope Kev sculpts more...
i just happen to like a little cheesecake on the side...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2013/06/11 17:32:02
Subject: Re:The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
None, no impact what so ever. This a mostly male 12 to 30+ audience hobby, so yes females are objectivity, deal with it. It only ever stop beings an issue you get over it.
2013/06/11 17:42:43
Subject: Re:The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
xxvaderxx wrote: None, no impact what so ever. This a mostly male 12 to 30+ audience hobby, so yes females are objectivity, deal with it. It only ever stop beings an issue you get over it.
Two things here. One, welcome to the thread, are you replying to anyone in particular or just stating something? Two, not everyone in the 12 to 30 male age range think that females are objects, and I am slightly offended that you would put this blanket assumption on everyone in that group.
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2013/06/11 18:00:46
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
With due respect, especially to your wife, the notion that because you find the KD:M aesthetic "daft and a bit disgusting", therefore the quick sellout is an indictment of the consumer is more then just a bit tendentious.
The line of artistic inheritance from Geiger to KD is simple enough to trace, representing as it does a very well established archetype in horror imagery.
Moreover, given the number of people in the comments section of KD:M that said they were a) female and b) enraptured by the models including the female models, it is passing possible that you are not entirely well situated to make pronouncements regarding the likes and dislikes of the female populace.
Kingdom Death owes far more to Urotsukidoji than Giger.
In your opinoin. Which I disagree with. I would issue the classic objection of irrelevant, immaterial and unfounded.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Tentacle porn is fairly popular in it's niche, I don't begrudge people indulging in it, I'd just rather they kept it out of the wider wargaming model scene and developed some nice quiet corner of the internet to go swap figures covered in genitals fething each other.
No doubt said individuals will take your recommendation in the high-minded spirit of inclusion with which it is presented.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Also, some people on a kickstarter saying they are girls that really like the models (and I don't doubt it, certain KD minis are phenomenally beautiful) does not equal your average 15-30 year old women in the street being stopped and asked 'what do you think of this mountain of tits with a face and three cocks with it's naked female birthing slaves?' having an adverse reaction to it. To suggest that because you found a women somewhere who said 'that's cool' means that I as a man cannot therefore have validity calling it's likely reaction from most women negative, is as silly as it is tenuous.
Fascinating. This paragraph doesn't seem to be certain whether it's a claim that there are no girls on the interenet, or a claim of inauthenticity with the notion that because the interests of "your average 15-30 year old women in the street" align against this aesthetic, that is to say, that those women that are interested in aforementioned aesthetic are, it would seem, "cornball women".
Furthermore, what conceivable importance ought we to attach to the opinions of the "average 15-30 year old women in the street", as if the opinoin of the average 15-30 year old man on the street would be a fulsome endorsement of miniature gaming in totality? Should the forum simply be shuttered if said man finds (as indeed passing possible they do) that everything of discussion on these forums constitutes a ridiculous affectation unworthy of a man's attention? This hobby as a whole is a niche within a niche within a niche, yet you feel entirely comfortable in relegating the opinions and preferences of thousands upon thousands of people willing to invest millions of dollars to irrelevancy?
Or as Lillian Cohen-Moore put it (only after being called out on her complete ignorance of the topic she was opining about);
It is not forbidden for me to dislike a game, or its aesthetics, nor is it against any rules for backers and others to deeply appreciate and enjoy products I do not. I am not a monolithic voice, I am a single person expressing an opinion. I don't think people who backed this Kickstarter are evil, horrible, or lesser than anyone else. I've talked to backers in the past day who love the game and walked right past the pinups because it was Not Their Thing. That's okay. And it's also okay that other backers bought the pinups. I expressed my opinions about content I found problematic. At the end of the day, I have my opinion, others have theirs, and we all continue to have the ability to hold differing opinions and enjoy different things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 18:02:44
With due respect, especially to your wife, the notion that because you find the KD:M aesthetic "daft and a bit disgusting", therefore the quick sellout is an indictment of the consumer is more then just a bit tendentious.
The line of artistic inheritance from Geiger to KD is simple enough to trace, representing as it does a very well established archetype in horror imagery.
Moreover, given the number of people in the comments section of KD:M that said they were a) female and b) enraptured by the models including the female models, it is passing possible that you are not entirely well situated to make pronouncements regarding the likes and dislikes of the female populace.
Kingdom Death owes far more to Urotsukidoji than Giger.
In your opinoin. Which I disagree with. I would issue the classic objection of irrelevant, immaterial and unfounded.
The very same argument is entirely appropriate to your statement, which leaves me boggling at your deploying it.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Tentacle porn is fairly popular in it's niche, I don't begrudge people indulging in it, I'd just rather they kept it out of the wider wargaming model scene and developed some nice quiet corner of the internet to go swap figures covered in genitals fething each other.
No doubt said individuals will take your recommendation in the high-minded spirit of inclusion with which it is presented.
I doubt they will, since instead they seem to want to share their grubby little interests with the rest of us and they have you to valiantly defend them.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Also, some people on a kickstarter saying they are girls that really like the models (and I don't doubt it, certain KD minis are phenomenally beautiful) does not equal your average 15-30 year old women in the street being stopped and asked 'what do you think of this mountain of tits with a face and three cocks with it's naked female birthing slaves?' having an adverse reaction to it. To suggest that because you found a women somewhere who said 'that's cool' means that I as a man cannot therefore have validity calling it's likely reaction from most women negative, is as silly as it is tenuous.
Fascinating. This paragraph doesn't seem to be certain whether it's a claim that there are no girls on the interenet, or a claim of inauthenticity with the notion that because the interests of "your average 15-30 year old women in the street" align against this aesthetic, that is to say, that those women that are interested in aforementioned aesthetic are, it would seem, "cornball women".
As fascinating as your inability to construe meaning. Let me repeat it in simpler terms...
The rest of the class had moved on to discussion of women, miniatures and their depictions of women. So, no, we were not talking about the group of women who would like to see giant boob monsters in the act of putting their three long penises up some naked and dead eyed captive slave girls, unless you're going to ascertain that that group of women is anything like a majority or even a majority in the hobby? Because I'd ascertain right back that you were talking absolute dog gak.
Furthermore, what conceivable importance ought we to attach to the opinions of the "average 15-30 year old women in the street", as if the opinoin of the average 15-30 year old man on the street would be a fulsome endorsement of miniature gaming in totality? Should the forum simply be shuttered if said man finds (as indeed passing possible they do) that everything of discussion on these forums constitutes a ridiculous affectation unworthy of a man's attention? This hobby as a whole is a niche within a niche within a niche, yet you feel entirely comfortable in relegating the opinions and preferences of thousands upon thousands of people willing to invest millions of dollars to irrelevancy?
Thousands of people buy Chindos, concentration camp memorabilia and Justin Beiber records. Also, because you're being entirely shifty with your wording, I'll repeat what I said earlier, many of KD miniatures are excellent, beautiful sculpts. If I'd had a few bucks kicking around at the time, I might have signed on myself, I wouldn't have bought the giant raping titmonster though, because I think it's crass and unpleasant, you, (sorry, you) were the one who then jumped about on my head and said 'but all these ladies signed up for KD', which is great, and in no way is a counter to my claim that the giant raping titmonster with it's slaves is a poor thing to show to a prospective female gamer, on average.
Or as Lillian Cohen-Moore put it (only after being called out on her complete ignorance of the topic she was opining about);
It is not forbidden for me to dislike a game, or its aesthetics, nor is it against any rules for backers and others to deeply appreciate and enjoy products I do not. I am not a monolithic voice, I am a single person expressing an opinion. I don't think people who backed this Kickstarter are evil, horrible, or lesser than anyone else. I've talked to backers in the past day who love the game and walked right past the pinups because it was Not Their Thing. That's okay. And it's also okay that other backers bought the pinups. I expressed my opinions about content I found problematic. At the end of the day, I have my opinion, others have theirs, and we all continue to have the ability to hold differing opinions and enjoy different things.
I give less than two gaks what that lass said, she had a problem with the bubblegum T&A modelling of KD and others, I don't, my wife doesn't, we both have a problem with depictions of forced penetration and sexual violence, the point I've been making this thread down.
You have insinuated in your responses to me that I am actually squeamishly balking at nudity or have no appreciation for art and have, in doing so, utterly missed my point.
I'll repeat it for you. Sexual violence and it's depiction has no place in mainstream commercial miniature making, or should not have, and is directly offensive to and off-putting to most women, including those within the hobby, seeking to learn more about minis and wargaming, or the wider female populace and if you think you can swing that around somehow or again try to equate what I've said to reactionary horror or claim some form of intellectual high ground based around notions of 'art', you are entirely delusional.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 18:29:12
2013/06/11 18:30:58
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
When I was a 12-30 male I didn't lust after big breasted wargame figures, perhaps because I was busy pinching copies of Men Only from the newsagent (or buying them when I got old enough).
Personally, with respect to the Kingdom Death aesthetic, what caught my eye when I was reading the description of the setting is "nightmare" horror, and I find that the unreal and surreal qualities of many of the miniatures fit in that idea, where they wouldn't as a more tangible kind of horror or fantasy.
As a being of nightmare, the Wet Nurse fits.
2013/06/11 18:34:09
Subject: The impact of the Raging Heroes kickstarter &representations of females in gaming [Some NSFW images]
Kilkrazy wrote: When I was a 12-30 male I didn't lust after big breasted wargame figures, perhaps because I was busy pinching copies of Men Only from the newsagent (or buying them when I got old enough).
Grate now go tell NASCAR they take out the pretty ladies when interviewing drivers.
Its a fad, its a selling tool, its a stereotype people either grow out of or flat out dont pay attention to/dwell on. The only relevance it has is the one artificially being given here.
With everything you can find online today, do you really think an expensive toy soldier with big boobs that a very diminute percentage of the population will ever hear about is relevant?.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/06/11 18:40:53
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Black Legion/Iron Warriors/Night Lords 
Inquisitorial Friends & Co. (Inq, GK, Elysians, Assassins) 
Elysian Droptroops, soon-to-add Armored Battlegroup 
Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World Lucius
