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I certainly don't have all the answers. However, calling out the behavior and not critizing people who speak out against it would be a good start. Encouraging others to do the same too. Those, at minimum are steps twoards a better community.
For a far reaching solution, you'd need someone doing more work on the problem than I have time, resources, talent or energy for. I can safely point some some things that certainly aren't constructive "You should just mute them" and the like. If these were valid solutions for the people having the problem, it wouldn't be an issue.
I think your idea that I can't be potentially offended due to your perception of my race and whatnot speaks volumes.
I never asserted this. In fact I pulled out a specific example of just how someone who was white/male/straight could be deeply offended by an example of the sort of trash talk we run into online. The assertion I've made is that there is little to make that offense rise strictly from a result of the experiences that a [straight white male] has due to being a [straight white male] and that you would not be affected by the particular kinds of speech that pervasive in the community (Racism, Homophobia, Misogyny), in the same way that the people in those groups are.
Being a straight white guy isn't a magic shield from being offended or hurt by anything ever, but it does mean that you aren't being inherently attacked for who you are by this stuff.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 20:39:40
Chongara wrote: I certainly don't have all the answers. However, calling out the behavior and not critizing people who speak out against it would be a good start. Encouraging others to do the same too. Those, at minimum are steps twoards a better community.
I think this is a fundamentally flawed tactic, given that the main purpose of the behavior being discussed is to upset, offend and draw attention to oneself.
Chongara wrote: For a far reaching solution, you'd need someone doing more work on the problem than I have time, resources, talent or energy for. I can safely point some some things that certainly aren't constructive "You should just mute them" and the like. If these were valid solutions for the people having the problem, it wouldn't be an issue.
It's the only solution, really. Without a far-reaching solution it would seem the simplest thing would be to remove the offending item from one's ability to perceive it.
Chongara wrote: I never asserted this. In fact I pulled out a specific example of just how someone who was white/male/straight could be deeply offended by an example of the sort of trash talk we run into online. The assertion I've made is that there is little to make that offense rise strictly from a result of the experiences that a [straight white male] has due to being a [straight white male] and that you would not be affected by the particular kinds of speech that pervasive in the community (Racism, Homophobia, Misogyny), in the same way that the people in those groups are.
I think that if you thought really, really hard about it you could come up with ways that someone outside of those groups could be affected by that behavior.
Chongara wrote: Being a straight white guy isn't a magic shield from being offended or hurt by anything ever, but it does mean that you aren't being inherently attacked for who you are by this stuff.
There are other ways of being attacked that are just as hurtful, though. I know that you try to dismiss this but it's still true.
Which isn't to say that the people intentionally trying to offend others for whatever reason aren't reprobate scumbags, but since there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it completely outside of going to their house and breaking their jaw I maintain that the best solution is to limit contact with that sort of person.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
1. Thank you Chongara for standing up for this issue.
2. Monster Rain, you asked what can be done when it's perfectly justifiable to be "empowered to mute them" and a story someone (a Scholar) told me came back to me as she was describing the feminist movement of the 60's and today.
She described that the difference between the feminist movement of the 60's (arguably the strongest period of feminism in history), and the movement of today circles around the idea of empowerment. Today, we believe that women can be empowered by embracing their sexuality, political values, and individualism - they can engage in modeling, pornography, or politics in whatever way they choose. This is all true, just as true muting the little tike that spews random hate for no reason other than he feels like he can. The movement of the 60's however argued, why do we have to put up with his gak in the first place? Why do people feel so entitled that they can hurt anyone they want to at will because it's how they empower themselves? They asked not of empowerment of themselves, nor of empowerment over these types of political hate spewers but of liberation from them. They wanted to be rid of the problem in the first place by convincing people who are already weighed down with entitlements to relinquish their position of privilege. There are those that said they failed, but Civil Rights, and even the notion of empowerment would not have occurred had it not have been for the idea of liberation of oppression.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 22:10:25
I certainly don't have all the answers. However, calling out the behavior and not critizing people who speak out against it would be a good start. Encouraging others to do the same too. Those, at minimum are steps twoards a better community.
This is correct. It is the only thing you can do about such things, but you have to keep in mind that it's a process that needs to be actively worked on by both sides. On the one hand, people should tell others they might have acted wrong, but on the other hand, people who do speak up against such behavior need to adress the issue in an appropriate manner. More often than not, also demonstrated on these very forums, people just swing over completely and start being sexist themselves, just headed towards the other gender, which, ultimately, hurts the case more than it helps.
The biggest problem, however, is that asking for a change in this specific area is asking for humanity to change as a whole. Stopping discrimination of others for any aspect is less likely than world peace. It's mankind's nature to look for weak spots in their fellow men and use them to project fear / anxiety etc. and thus feel better about themselves. Everyone of us does it, be it vocal or non-vocal, and for many different reasons.
It's highly important to use the correct scale. There is a huge difference between the internet and actual life. Anything that resorts to the internet as a source is doomed to fail to begin with. The internet is the most hateful room one can imagine and you cannot do anything to improve the situation. Nothing. In the contrary: if you react to someone spewing hate, you did exactly what he intended to. By reacting to it, you reinforce the demonstrated behavior. The only valid reaction to such people is ignoring them and, if possible, reporting to an authority, be it a (forum) moderator or sth. else.
In reality, however, the entire issue is a lot different. The Gender Gap is down to a very small difference, women looking for a job / being in a job have a huge amount of bonusses men do not get and they even get superior treatment by the law in a lot of cases, mostly in social areas. Talking of modern countries of course. Does sexism still exist? Yep. Same as racism. Or basically anything related to people treating other people in a degrading way and it happens on all social levels and all fields.
What happens when a guy logs in under his wife’s gamertag? A whole new understanding of gamer girl problems. A huge thank you to my buddy Slaus for writing this post!
I consider myself a normal guy really. Nothing special, run of the mill, pays his taxes and tries not to scratch himself in public kinda dude. Puts pants on two legs at a time and just tries to enjoy life every now and then with a little bit of escapism via video games when time permits.
But I want to tell you about a time where I logged in to game, and ended up beginning down a road of pro-feminism, or being a little BLEEP as many my male friends have decided to call it. But I digress… let’s get to the story.
For quite awhile I was in absolute love with Mass Effect 3 multi-player. Not just because it took place in the world of Commander Shepherd and I got to play as some of my favourite species and classes, but more so because it was cooperative.
…and I was good at it.
Really good at it.
Guaranteed first or second ranking per match good. Another reason I was in love with the game was because I got to play it alongside my wife, my long-time childhood friend; Mark as well as other really cool friends and strangers who happened to fill out the remaining spots. But one day I decided to login to try and unlock a few perks and packs for my wife since she was having a terrible time getting valuable items which you could randomly get in the perk packs. Therefore I decided to log in as her one time, play as a character which was one of my favourites, and rack up enough points to afford her a few packs in hopes at least of them would be an unlock for something worthwhile. Little did I know I’d be unlocking much more.
As soon as I logged onto the “lobby” which is an area where the 4 players wait before going into the match, the first thing I hear over the headphones was: “Oh great.. a girl player? F*ck. Are you serious? Let’s kick her and hope we get someone else.” Of course for those of you unfamiliar with how this works, they knew the character was a female due to my wife’s moniker or gamer tag as it’s called. Then another player chimed in : “We can’t do a gold match with a girl player. There are even girls who play this game? Shouldn’t she be playing my little pony or something.”
Hey.. F those guys alright?? My little Pony is the illest and I’ll hear no one besmirching my pony friends, son! But anyway…. Two of the players were just being pure ridiculous about the fact that a “girl” just HAD to be a liability and that there was no way some “girl” would be able to provide anything of value on such a difficult level as “gold”.
I stayed quiet as to not even bother giving these guys any relief that I was in fact male and instead decided I was going to play this match better than I had ever played before JUST to let these guys think that a lowly chick bested them and dominated. So I used the tactics that my WIFE in fact taught ME in playing that character and I completely ran up the score. Pulling out into a clear lead from the get, yet at the same time playing decent support to the team.
By the end of the 1st round, my score was quite a bit ahead of everyone else’s to which one of the guys remarked: “ wait a minute, the chick is in the lead? Oh hell no guys, we can’t have this.” Guy two then joins in to quip: “No way can we let some bytch clear us like this.”
Oh it was on from that point on. Only person I assisted the rest of the game was the third person who remained silent for most of the match. I let the other guys fend for themselves even when on a few occasions they begged for help and revives. I denied them and by the end of the game, their scores weren’t even close to mine.
That’s when the third person spoke up…. A female player.
“ Damn, she and I had the top two ranks and you guys spent most of the match dead on your backs… You let two girls dominate you. Daaaang.” She said.
Guy one: “F*ck you, b*tch. Suck on a d*ck and get back in the kitchen.”
Guy two: “Stupid whores, f*ck you. Get raped.”
That’s when I logged off.
I wasn’t going to say anything to them about what they said because then they would have felt “better” at the fact a female gamer DIDN’T beat their scores. I thought it best to let it burn that they were several thousand points behind my scores. Scores of a character with a female gamer tag.
What’s the point of this story?
The point is that there shouldn’t BE a time when a female gamer has to be subjected to that kind of vitrol and smack talking for no other reason than she logged on…and she has a vagina. It should never be that the answer to getting bested by a female gamer is to tell her to get back into the kitchen or worst yet: get raped. Female gamers just like any other gamer should be able to enjoy the experience of gaming without feeling uncomfortable. Without being subjected to misogynistic taunts for no other reason than she logs on! Now I know what many of you apologists are going to say to that:” man that’s just how gaming is, we trash talk, it’s not personal.”
Yes… yes it is. Yes this was. “I” was attacked PURELY for the fact I was on my wife’s gamertag and the gamer tag showed that it obviously belonged to a female. MY skills came into question for NO other reason than it being perceived that female gamers can’t be any good. That they can’t be REAL gamers. And the rebuttal to the other female’s smack talking that was in answer to THEIR smack talking, was the tried and true good ol: get back into the kitchen… mixed with some complete depravity of “get raped.”
That’s wrong.
Period.
There is no excuse.
Period.
That is why whenever male gamers act as if they are so offended by the points which female and feminist gamers bring up (valid points), and their answer to such is to use pure ignorance and misogyny…… I shake my head.
Because fools like that are exactly why feminist gamers need to exist.
Game on ladies. Game on.
Keep up the good fight. You’ve got a few of us fellas behind you.
Slaus Caldwell
Gamertag: Sinchyld.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/30 08:45:26
To me that article just sounds like a xbox live/psn issue rather than women being harassed online. For example my time (900+ hours) with l4d2 community has nothing even remotely close to that article (unless you're russian).
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
illuknisaa wrote: To me that article just sounds like a xbox live/psn issue rather than women being harassed online. For example my time (900+ hours) with l4d2 community has nothing even remotely close to that article (unless you're russian).
No, no. One person's experience of interacting with two people for a very limited period of time clearly proves that all women online are being singled out for abuse based on gender alone.
Well, the source makes the entire thing worthless anyway - would you trust an article about abortion on a fundamentally Christian website? There.
On the other hand, I believe it is a common issue. Men get called sons of female dogs in heat, women get called wh***. So what? It's an online game and people behave like total rear ends anyway, regardless of gender. Plus with female players, there's more stuff to it like social insecurity towards the opposing gender, especially among youngsters.
Sigvatr wrote: Men get called sons of female dogs in heat, women get called wh***. So what? It's an online game and people behave like total rear ends anyway, regardless of gender.
Melissia wrote: Frankly, the competitive gaming culture has done everything it can to keep women out without actually banning us.
Could you elaborate some more on that? I know the environment isn't exactly friendly, but what factors do you think contribute most to this hostility? I've become more interested in this topic since tuning in to the SC2 WCS this week-- there wasn't a single female player from any of the teams.
I really don't know what contributes to the hostility, but certainly I've never gotten a vibe that the competitive crowd is a group of people who honestly respect anyone who's different from them. Racial slurs, misogyny, religious slurs, and general profanity often flows from their keyboards faster than actual gameplay decisions. Or even each other, half the time. If I had to guess, I'd use a guess based on something I mentioned earlier in this thread-- it's treated as an "exclusive" group, and like most groups of humans that are exclusive, it tends towards conformity rather than diversity. People who are different have a hard time being "one of us" in the minds of those who conform better.
Super-competitive players tend to have no social skills as they spend so much of their time hooked into a machine and not interacting with flesh-and-blood people. That's just my anecdotal experience, though, so YMMV.
~Tim?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/01 20:03:09
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: Super-competitive players tend to have no social skills as they spend so much of their time hooked into a machine and not interacting with flesh-and-blood people.
~Tim?
I'm sure that screaming abuse at people is still interaction, it's just not meaningful or constructive interaction
I'd disagree. Super-competitive players are players who consider playing their actual job and the ones I know are pretty normal people.
I do remember a female CS clan back in the days and they got utterly destroyed when facing their male counterparts. An actual reason for the considerable majority of male players on a high level in competitive games is their nature, as men are much more intrinsically interested in direct competition than women are.
Melissia wrote: I really don't know what contributes to the hostility, but certainly I've never gotten a vibe that the competitive crowd is a group of people who honestly respect anyone who's different from them. Racial slurs, misogyny, religious slurs, and general profanity often flows from their keyboards faster than actual gameplay decisions. Or even each other, half the time. If I had to guess, I'd use a guess based on something I mentioned earlier in this thread-- it's treated as an "exclusive" group, and like most groups of humans that are exclusive, it tends towards conformity rather than diversity. People who are different have a hard time being "one of us" in the minds of those who conform better.
I can't say much about the super-competitive players as a whole but when it comes to SC2 "professional players" (yes, professional) and all the people around it (casters, presenters and others in the spotlight) they generally do not fit any of those descriptions.
As for the random people on the net my experience is: I've always got the worst from the middle-upper crowd and a bit beyond that. You know, the ones who are a little better than average but think they are the the top of the top dogs already. If you loose they will gloat like donkey-caves, if you win then they cannot get over the loss. I know they are everywhere, but there is a certain boiling point and I feel like it's always at the same 'level'.
Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration
Sigvatr wrote: An actual reason for the considerable majority of male players on a high level in competitive games is their nature, as men are much more intrinsically interested in direct competition than women are.
Sigvatr wrote: An actual reason for the considerable majority of male players on a high level in competitive games is their nature, as men are much more intrinsically interested in direct competition than women are.
DemetriDominov wrote: *Fine print: Women, those of color, LBGT, handicapped, Muslim, Jewish, German, Mexican, Canadian, Asian, gingers, and those of moral virtue need not apply.
Sigvatr wrote: An actual reason for the considerable majority of male players on a high level in competitive games is their nature, as men are much more intrinsically interested in direct competition than women are.
I cannot roll my eyes hard enough at this.
It's common knowledge for a LONG time now. I can't remember neuroscience's take on it or rather how much genetics play into it, but socialisation, obviously, plays a large part in it.
I've generally held the opinion that, traditionally, even in ye olde semi-historical type points, I'd say that generally women are far more competitive than men. It's just a whole lot more subtle.
It's not something as obvious as "Haha, you suck my team is beating yours at sports." For my family at least it's more like:
My house is cleaner than yours.
My son did X, yours didn't.
I gathered up Y more amount for the church fundraiser, you all didn't.
I spent Z hours more doing some flower display, none of you didn't.
Ever heard the phrase, "how does she do it?" - Competition.
And that's without what happens if you pen my mother and her sisters in the same room for an extended period of time...
So, I don't see any reason why women in gaming would ever be seen as 'less competitive' there's certainly the potential for it even historically. With modern gamer girls, I can see no reason why one wouldn't be able to kick someones rear at COD if they so choose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/02 18:18:07
A sense of competition is part of human nature now, evolution has ensured this is the case. The difference in how that's expressed - as Compel was alluding to - will partly be down to testosterone and oestrogen, but of course other factors like the old "nature vs nurture" debate also get a look-in. Even then, you can't always assume that these are "male" and "female" in their application - everyone has both, and at differing levels.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Compel wrote: I've generally held the opinion that, traditionally, even in ye olde semi-historical type points, I'd say that generally women are far more competitive than men. It's just a whole lot more subtle.
I wouldn't use "subtle", it's "different". Women are less competitive in classical competitive environments such as sports whereas they are more competitive in e.g. looking better than other representatives of their gender. So yes, lack of differentiation there on my part.
So, I don't see any reason why women in gaming would ever be seen as 'less competitive' there's certainly the potential for it even historically. With modern gamer girls, I can see no reason why one wouldn't be able to kick someones rear at COD if they so choose.
Oh, I am pretty sure that there are dedicated, ass-kicking women gamers out there. Just referring to (wo)men as whole here.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/02 18:54:36
Reading the ME3 post above and wondering how he managed to luck into two fine examples of the male gender
I have to admit there is a lot of stupidity that goes with playing online and it does get very tedious, especially when you get into a group that is entirely made up of what seems like 13 year olds. But that is what perma-mute is for I suppose.
I have no issue who is on my team (or the other team) so long as the skill levels balance out and people don't behave or speak like donkey-caves.
My missus likes games, shes better than me at Diddy Kong Racing, but then I tend to drink drive regularly in the virtual world.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Men are made fun of online for being someone's opponent. Women are made fun of online for being women. There's a huge difference that your privilege is blinding you to.
The "privilege" is being the majority. Women, blacks, jews etc. are frequently the target of certain negative behavior due to being the minority. Being a conservative on politic discussion in open forums? You're in for a ride.
I guess I'll just point out your privilege again, and you will continue to pretend you don't have it and lurkers who actually aren't horrible will understand and learn something.
Rented Tritium wrote: I guess I'll just point out your privilege again, and you will continue to pretend you don't have it and lurkers who actually aren't horrible will understand and learn something.
Point me to the exact post where I denied having such a "privilege".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/02 21:03:04
Rented Tritium wrote: Men are made fun of online for being someone's opponent. Women are made fun of online for being women. There's a huge difference that your privilege is blinding you to.
Rented Tritium wrote: I guess I'll just point out your privilege again, and you will continue to pretend you don't have it and lurkers who actually aren't horrible will understand and learn something.
So anyone who is male, and has a different perspective to you is wrong and should probably step away from the thread because of that horrible privilege that they suffer from?
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch 
