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True enough, but I'd like to think the girls would at LEAST die en masse against a tyranid hive fleet or something.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Interesting, is something happening? Is the cold perhaps thawing? Ending the limbo the army, and by extension we have been stuck in? If so how shall it end do you think? Are we seeing the dawn of a new lease on life? Or is this as they say, the end? The final pruning of our favorite rose? If the latter how do you think they'll justify it in the fluff? GK need ALL the armor paint perhaps?

I honestly would prefer if the GW had the balls to officially end the army and explain their reasons then keeping with this limbo as you say.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Interesting, is something happening? Is the cold perhaps thawing? Ending the limbo the army, and by extension we have been stuck in? If so how shall it end do you think? Are we seeing the dawn of a new lease on life? Or is this as they say, the end? The final pruning of our favorite rose? If the latter how do you think they'll justify it in the fluff? GK need ALL the armor paint perhaps?

I think we'll benefit from this, sooner or later. If the metal models are really being depleted, then it'll force GW's hand even more. They'll have to do something or they'll be supporting an army with both no codex (essentially, given that GW doesn't distribute it) and no models.

And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
True enough, but I'd like to think the girls would at LEAST die en masse against a tyranid hive fleet or something.

Nah, they're far too spread out for that.

CloudRider wrote:
@Melissia
So your saying if i fielded 500 points of orks (using codex)
You would be able to field 500 points of SOB (using codex)

And we could have a legitimate, rule-compliant battle?

Yes, of course she can. Have you been living under a rock for the last decade? Sisters are a completely legal (albeit ignored) army.

I feel reminded of the people who thought Relic invented the SoB, back when they released the Soulstorm expansion for Dawn of War.
I would have assumed people posting on dakka are at least familiar with the TT's own rulebook, though.

PS: It's two decades, even. I think their first list was in Codex Imperialis, which is from 1993.

 Troike wrote:

And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.

I don't knoooow....

If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like

"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"

And that's where the meeting would end.

 Purifier wrote:

 Troike wrote:

And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.

I don't knoooow....

If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like

"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"

And that's where the meeting would end.

But why bother keeping them updated if your aim is to remove them? You're going to have to deal with outrage from fans updates or no, so why would you maintain them in a limbo state if you didn't want to do anything else with them?

I think the point was that they are intentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.

Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.

I think people here are forgetting Hanlon's Razor:
Never attribute to Malice that which is adequately explained by Stupidity.

GW isn't Trying to get rid of the Sisters, they just don't care.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think the point was that they are unintentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.

Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.

Did you mean intentionally?

But yeah, I know what he was getting at. Though GW is very aware of the demand for the Sisters, and that there's people playing them. Obviously they can see that the models are still being oredered, and Emperor knows that GW gets bombarded with plenty of emails asking how to obtain the WD codex or when they'll be getting an update.

 Troike wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think the point was that they are unintentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.

Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.

Did you mean intentionally?

But yeah, I know what he was getting at. Though GW is very aware of the demand for the Sisters, and that there's people playing them. Obviously they can see that the models are still being oredered, and Emperor knows that GW gets bombarded with plenty of emails asking how to obtain the WD codex or when they'll be getting an update.

Yes, sorry. I made a typo

 Purifier wrote:

 Troike wrote:

And I doubt they'll be squatted because, well, look at what a PR disaster the Squats were. You can't just remove an full, official army which is used by many of your customers and not expect considerable backlash. Nah, I think our chances are decent. Just have to wait and see.

I don't knoooow....

If I were told, as a representetive of a wargaming company that we had to remove an army because it wasn't making the sales quotas, I imagine it would go something like

"Alright, lad. Here's the thing. Sisters, right"
"whose sister?"
"The battle ones."
"I don't..."
"It's one of our armies."
"Are you sure? I think I would have been told if we had an army called sisters."
"Anyway, we need to phase them out. Tell me how you would go about doing such a thing."
"What are our stores of models like for this army?"
"We're set for a few years."
"Alright. First thing, give them a new codex."
"...that seems... counter intuitive."
"Hear me out. We make it less than enticing. Make a few glaring holes. Make it unscalable or something"
"Oh, ok. Well we can just make them have a set number of Acts of Faith, no matter the army size."
"Spare me the details. Do I look like I am a man that likes details? But that's not enough. Make it a footnote in the magazine thingy we run."
"Evil."
"You have only heard half of it yet. Literally. Run it over 2 separate issues."
"... that's just wrong."
"And once those issues are gone, so is the codex. No reprints."
"I'm pretty sure this is illegal in some countries..."
"And stop printing models"
"How will we get everything sold once they know we're discontinuing the army?"
"How would they find out? I'm not gonna tell them, and you're gonna be encased in cement."
"I'm gonna be wha-"

And that's where the meeting would end.

This is EXACTLY what happened. No question.

and that's where Jimmy Hoffa actually went!

So...the Sisters are made from bits of Jimmy Hoffa? No wonder they are in short supply!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the point was that they are intentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.

Eh, I suppose it's fair to say that opinion on the Minidex is split.

But either way, that doesn't explain the many articles they got in WD following the Codex release (including new missions and Apoc formations), nor does it explain why they would reserve several pages for the Sisters in the 6E rulebook to showcase both their fluff as well as countless colourful photos of their minis. It does kind of evoke the impression that they'd be ... you know, advertising them?

So yes, stupidity. Or simply a matter of prioritisation. GW seems to be a fairly small company with a limited number of employees that does not like to expand, which means that more than likely SoB simply get pushed back in favour of (subjectively, as per the opinions of the people in charge, who all have their own thoughts about the various armies) more attractive projects - again and again.

It's not lack of interest from the players, but from GW. They'll let SOB die a silent death and if anyone asks they'll say there might be plans for them in the future. And by future they'll mean "never."

 Lynata wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the point was that they are intentionally making the sisters as unappealing as possible, that they are abandoned by the fan base.
Which would make sense, if the WD rules were not well received. It appears to me that the WD are well liked, despite not being a "proper" codex.

Eh, I suppose it's fair to say that opinion on the Minidex is split.

But either way, that doesn't explain the many articles they got in WD following the Codex release (including new missions and Apoc formations), nor does it explain why they would reserve several pages for the Sisters in the 6E rulebook to showcase both their fluff as well as countless colourful photos of their minis. It does kind of evoke the impression that they'd be ... you know, advertising them?

So yes, stupidity. Or simply a matter of prioritisation. GW seems to be a fairly small company with a limited number of employees that does not like to expand, which means that more than likely SoB simply get pushed back in favour of (subjectively, as per the opinions of the people in charge, who all have their own thoughts about the various armies) more attractive projects - again and again.

Squats had pages dedicated in the 2nd ed rule books, fluff pages, templates and pictures of miniatures. It's just a placeholder while miniature stocks exist and keeps them open to do something. But nothing was done and the range was wound down. By the time they got 'squatted' in 3rd edition they hadn't had a presence in the game for years. They weren't removed with any announcement, it's just like the Sisters, they were just eased out. The 'announcement' in the fluff they were all dead didn't come until they hasn't been seen on tabletops for many years.

I think people have a false impression of how the Squats were squatted. They weren't discontinued overnight with any announcement, they had a basic set of rules that came in the 40k game but never received a codex or any new miniatures. Stocks ran out in the shops and they became increasingly difficult to get through their old catalogue a which were still open to ordering back then. After a bit it became apartment that the plastic arms sprue was no longer available making many squat figures incomplete , and while it wasn't known at the time it seems that they've disposed of the moulds of the squats destroying them forever. Then once they were codex-less, with no miniatures available through shops or mail order and never being seen in White Dwarf, they were written out in 3rd edition by when many younger players didn't even know what they were.

There are parallels with Sisters, no codex, little official presence, very poor availability of miniatures which are beginning to dwindle even through mail order and likely the discontinuation of their moulds as metal isn't being used and they haven't been converted to Finecast.

GW also stated the reasons for why they removed the squats, and it wasn't because of any sales numbers but because they didn't feel the army would "fit" with their vision of the setting anymore - which, to be fair, did change quite a bit in the years after the initial Rogue Trader rulebook's release. It is also notable that the squats did not have their own 2E book but merely a "holdover" list in the Codex Imperialis, which was still very RT'ish in terms of mechanics.

Would GW suddenly think that, after over 20 years of existence, the Sisters of Battle would have no place in the setting? Perhaps, given that people leaving and new people joining means that the studio as a whole may, over the course of multiple years, change its consensus on things. However, how does this explain that, contrary to the post above, the Sisters' official presence has been on the rise rather than a decline? Ever since the days of 3rd edition, they've never been featured more strongly. One would assume that, if there are plans to phase them out, GW would actually stop printing WD articles on them rather than doing the opposite. Not to mention the revamped webstore, or the novels and audio books that Black Library has churned out (if you believe that 3 products in such a short timespan is a coincidence, I'd recommend checking out how many books the SoB got in the decades before).

About the only parallel I see to the squats is miniature availability, and the Sisters are by far not the only army that has temporarily experienced this.

Obviously, it's not impossible that SoB would be dropped entirely - given GW's special manner of prioritisation and business sense displayed in the past. All I'm saying is "don't panic", and don't jump to conclusions just because one of several region's webstores once again shows some minis as Unavailable and this time it just happens to be SoB.
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.

 Lynata wrote:

*bla*
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.

Might as well grant them the Emperor's Peace than suffer through that abomination

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

*bla*
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.

Might as well grant them the Emperor's Peace than suffer through that abomination

Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.

I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
GW also stated the reasons for why they removed the squats, and it wasn't because of any sales numbers but because they didn't feel the army would "fit" with their vision of the setting anymore - which, to be fair, did change quite a bit in the years after the initial Rogue Trader rulebook's release. It is also notable that the squats did not have their own 2E book but merely a "holdover" list in the Codex Imperialis, which was still very RT'ish in terms of mechanics.

Would GW suddenly think that, after over 20 years of existence, the Sisters of Battle would have no place in the setting? Perhaps, given that people leaving and new people joining means that the studio as a whole may, over the course of multiple years, change its consensus on things. However, how does this explain that, contrary to the post above, the Sisters' official presence has been on the rise rather than a decline? Ever since the days of 3rd edition, they've never been featured more strongly. One would assume that, if there are plans to phase them out, GW would actually stop printing WD articles on them rather than doing the opposite. Not to mention the revamped webstore, or the novels and audio books that Black Library has churned out (if you believe that 3 products in such a short timespan is a coincidence, I'd recommend checking out how many books the SoB got in the decades before).

About the only parallel I see to the squats is miniature availability, and the Sisters are by far not the only army that has temporarily experienced this.

Obviously, it's not impossible that SoB would be dropped entirely - given GW's special manner of prioritisation and business sense displayed in the past. All I'm saying is "don't panic", and don't jump to conclusions just because one of several region's webstores once again shows some minis as Unavailable and this time it just happens to be SoB.
Honestly, I'm much more worried this means they might be turning them all into FailFinecast.

It's also worth noting that GW has said that they'll never "squat" an army again. They remember how that went down with some players.

Troike wrote:Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.
I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.

Granted, I heard that as well - but even leaving the smaller (yet not totally absent) risk of deformations and air bubbles aside, no amount of quality improvement will, as far as my own personal preferences are concerned, make up for the loss of weight and stability. In the end, it'll always remain a flimsy piece of resin that can't even withstand a slight breeze of wind and will melt if you leave it standing in the sun.

The ability to convert will be a huge boon, but to me, the negatives outweigh the positives. That is something that everyone would have to decide for themselves, though.

Troike wrote:It's also worth noting that GW has said that they'll never "squat" an army again. They remember how that went down with some players.

I've never actually seen a quote for this - at least this was not part of the statement Jervis released once.
I still consider it to be one of those undying urban rumours, just like "everything is canon", "FW rules = Codex", etc.

I wouldn't mind finecast Penitent Engines. They gotta be easier to put together than those metal ones. Holy cow. Also, if making them finecast makes them easier to get (and hopefully cheaper??) then I'm all for it.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Eh, apparently they've improved finecast quite a bit since it was introduced, according to various fine gents on /tg/ who recently purchased some finecast models.
I wouldn't mind finecast minis at all, personally.

Granted, I heard that as well - but even leaving the smaller (yet not totally absent) risk of deformations and air bubbles aside, no amount of quality improvement will, as far as my own personal preferences are concerned, make up for the loss of weight and stability. In the end, it'll always remain a flimsy piece of resin that can't even withstand a slight breeze of wind and will melt if you leave it standing in the sun.

Though one very positive thing that finecast would do is make Sisters very much avaliable and affordable. And if there's one army that needs to be both of those things, it's the SoB.

Recasting the old models as finecast would not go down well with me. I want plastics that are like all the other armies' troop choices. Posable and with a few decorative options.

Failing that, I'd rather have the feel of weight when I move the models around than the same models, cheaper and finecasted.

It just sounds like one of those steps from where there is no way back. :(

On the other hand, it might result in more regular/extensive rules releases or other featurettes from which those who already have the army would profit as well - and metal minis would admittedly remain available via the usual online outlets for some time to come...

Ultimately, I see myself as being in the minority regarding the love for metals anyways, and if there are so many people waiting for resin SoB ... eh, let 'em have it.

That being said, it would remain to be seen whether they truly end up being cheaper:

3 Metal Battle Sisters: £10.75
5 Finecast Space Marine Veterans: £25.50
-> ???

 Purifier wrote:
Recasting the old models as finecast would not go down well with me. I want plastics that are like all the other armies' troop choices. Posable and with a few decorative options.

Failing that, I'd rather have the feel of weight when I move the models around than the same models, cheaper and finecasted.

Yeah bud, I'd much prefer plastics too. Though apparently GW is having problems making plastic Sisters (they can't get the robes to look right, allegedly) so finecast could be what we end up with.

But hey, maybe they'll sort the issues with plastic and we'll get plastic Sororitas after all. I certainly wouldn't complain. Plastic Sabbat helmets would be kickass.

 Lynata wrote:
Ultimately, I see myself as being in the minority regarding the love for metals anyways

I like the metal minis too, but I just feel that it's working against us at this point. If the rumours about GW stepping away from metal entirely are true, anyway.

Yeah no matter what comes out of this, we're not getting cheaper SoB out of it

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Yeah no matter what comes out of this, we're not getting cheaper SoB out of it

Well, optimally, in a perfect world, it would go the way of the GK troop pack, which also contains the option of making the heavy weapons choices, which at the moment are super expensive at like 10 quid a pop.
Of course, I would expect the pack to be 10 models, not 5 like the GK.

(I sort of like how this thread has become a calm discussion of a few sisters players lamenting over the current state of affairs without ever really adding anything new. We're all just sort of bobbing our heads at eachother's comments.)

Become? That's pretty much what it always was

 Melissia wrote:
Become? That's pretty much what it always was

Yeah, I guess it happened around page 2