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 Flood wrote:
Not sure how everyone going out and buying an ipad just for GW books is saving us money...

I wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to unwrap that pretzel.

Holy Nutballs, I just realised who wrote the fifth edition Codex for SM...

How did he go from awesome with that book to two really bad ones?

Puscifer wrote:
Holy Nutballs, I just realised who wrote the fifth edition Codex for SM...

How did he go from awesome with that book to two really bad ones?

Personally, I don't think he did. I think that the GK codex and the Necron codex (the two I assume you're referencing ) are actually really good. That being said, it's important to note that I didn't play Necrons before they came out, so I didn't have any loyalty invested in the old 'dex. I concede that this fact may very well bias my opinion. I think the GK codex is also pretty good. I think that it's fairly simple to play, which leads many people to the erroneous conclusion that it's overpowered, but I don't think it's a bad codex by any stretch. Some of, nay all of, the fluff is written with a hyperbolic, extremely propagandistic feel to it, but that's just Ward's way, and I don't think it's something that's even that far afield in the 40k setting. (Read the boilerplate at the beginning of every 40k product again if you don't think the setting is built for epic exaggeration! ) I hope Ward writes our new codex, honestly.

I think most people on the Mat Ward hate train are there just because their friends or their forum communities are, and they want to fit in. Numerically speaking, most people (on Dakka anyway) have a negative opinion of him. Out of my series of 'Objective Hate' threads, it's interesting to note that Mat Ward was the only one of my topics to wind up with a majority opinion in the extreme hate/love slot. He and the Tau are the only ones, incidentally, that have a majority on the positive or negative side of the argument. (And Ward is the only one to have a majority on the negative side!) So opinions on Ward are pretty negative, but I don't think most folks have given him a fair shake.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

^and a darn good opinion it is mate!

 Jimsolo wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Holy Nutballs, I just realised who wrote the fifth edition Codex for SM...

How did he go from awesome with that book to two really bad ones?

Personally, I don't think he did. I think that the GK codex and the Necron codex (the two I assume you're referencing ) are actually really good. That being said, it's important to note that I didn't play Necrons before they came out, so I didn't have any loyalty invested in the old 'dex. I concede that this fact may very well bias my opinion. I think the GK codex is also pretty good. I think that it's fairly simple to play, which leads many people to the erroneous conclusion that it's overpowered, but I don't think it's a bad codex by any stretch. Some of, nay all of, the fluff is written with a hyperbolic, extremely propagandistic feel to it, but that's just Ward's way, and I don't think it's something that's even that far afield in the 40k setting. (Read the boilerplate at the beginning of every 40k product again if you don't think the setting is built for epic exaggeration! ) I hope Ward writes our new codex, honestly.

I think most people on the Mat Ward hate train are there just because their friends or their forum communities are, and they want to fit in. Numerically speaking, most people (on Dakka anyway) have a negative opinion of him. Out of my series of 'Objective Hate' threads, it's interesting to note that Mat Ward was the only one of my topics to wind up with a majority opinion in the extreme hate/love slot. He and the Tau are the only ones, incidentally, that have a majority on the positive or negative side of the argument. (And Ward is the only one to have a majority on the negative side!) So opinions on Ward are pretty negative, but I don't think most folks have given him a fair shake.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

Well here are my two cents...even though I woke up and feel like a boxer who took too many hits..ugh

Mat Ward is a terrible fluff writer...take a look at the current Space Marine codex...and I mean REALLY look at it....I'll give you a good example...when I was in grade 5 the class I was in, was tasked with writing a short story...now this time me being a little innocent perhaps..asked the teacher if I could use the word "Hell" in my short story...she said yes!...so I sat down and starting writing my Grade 5 Opus! and it started something like this. On top of Hell Mountain there ruled Hell Wizards who rained down hellfire surrounded by Dragons from hell and to get on top of Hell Mountain you had to go through Hellhounds who helled the hell out of hell! ...now I'm only paraphrasing my story here as that was many hell years ago but here's the point

Mat Ward had Ultramarine oral diarrhea...if you grew up playing the game and played Marines you suddenly have a marine chapter who's 2nd best

that would be like watching Star Wars prequels and finding out Anakin built C-3PO...or meteclorians(SP) are bacteria

as for rules wise my biggest thing was giving flippin Terminators a 3+ Invulnerable! ..ridiculous in my opinion, but that's just my opinion

So yes Mat Ward...bad fluff writer..and same goes with the Necron and Grey Knight codices...that's why the Mat Ward hate..feel free to enjoy his stories though I'm just trying to bring out understanding not deter you

I, too hope he writes our next codex and this time make Sicarius a better HQ in game.
I do believe his books are well-balanced with a little touch of power someplace. But that is a good thing, no?

Ahhh... The first SM rumor thread. Some very vague predictions and 7 pages of hate for Matt Ward.

What codexes did he write other than SM, DE, and crons? Since I can't care less about fluff I only care about the new rules and units he is gonna add. I think the supplements is a nice touch and long over due since they are probably easy to create. Seriously, that crapy fluff has been written for a decade and the army list will be a mostly the same as the SM codex with a few new characters, a change or two to the FoC, and probably a new tank.

I think the LR Terminous may be a bit overpowered for regular 40K, it was an Apoc unit only for a reason. 3 TL Lascannons and 2 more Lascanons is a bit overpowered me thinks. GUess they want to sell more of the upgrade packs. Might have to pick one up and magnetize one of my Landraiders.

spartiatis wrote:
I, too hope he writes our next codex and this time make Sicarius a better HQ in game.
I do believe his books are well-balanced with a little touch of power someplace. But that is a good thing, no?

It feels like a bit of a letdown so far with 6th. It feels like the earlier codexes for 6th, (CSM and DA) aren't built with the same ... vision that the Tau and Eldar books are built with. Tau and Eldar both got unique new monsterous creatures and so far, are leaning towards the higher end of the power scale. Can't say the same of DA or CSM. =( You have the 'balanced' books, and then the Xeno books have a bunch of MC models. It's part of what makes psychic choir tyrnids so strong, is having toughness rather than AV.

I really hope C:SM gets something competitive.

 RogueMage wrote:

as for rules wise my biggest thing was giving flippin Terminators a 3+ Invulnerable! ..ridiculous in my opinion, but that's just my opinion

No its not only your opinion, i completly agree with you, Giving a 3++ to models in the game was just bat gak insane.

Never invul saves should have gone lower then 4++, under any circumstances, 3++ is waaaay too broken, specialy if you face an army who 2/3 consiste of such crap while the best invul save you can get is ONE 4++ and the rest 5++.

Just to remind poeple who din't play in 3rd Ed, Storm Shields at the time was 4++ save, in CC only, the field generator was'nt powerfull enough to deflect incoming shoots from afar, and then not only did it work against everything, but it also got upgraded to 3++...

And alas, my hopes of seeing this broken crazy insanity repaired in 6th has been blowed to smithereens when DA codex came out...

I would have to look over my older Space Marine books--but wasn't Ward's codex the first time a LR/Pod carried 12?


Regardless, I actually liked his Space Marine book--minus the Ultramarine special character parade.

I would like to see greater customisation on a squad level, like give the sergeant an option like +15 points, all marines in this squad have CCW/Bolt Pistol as well as Boltgun. +35 Sergeant is now Apothecary. + 30 The unit now has RAGE/Furious Charge. Or Chapter Masters able to install their own custom Chapter Tactics for 100 points.

I would also like to see multiple, uber cheap, paper thin glass cannon vehicles for scouts, like AV 11/9/9 jeeps for scouts, can sit 5 men, and have a twin linked autocannon on the back of it similar to the warthog from Halo.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Dreadnoughts become T6 2+ MC's instead of walker vehicles.

Good lord, are you trying to start a flamewar here?

 PandaMango141 wrote:
I would like to see greater customisation on a squad level, like give the sergeant an option like +15 points, all marines in this squad have CCW/Bolt Pistol as well as Boltgun. +35 Sergeant is now Apothecary. + 30 The unit now has RAGE/Furious Charge. Or Chapter Masters able to install their own custom Chapter Tactics for 100 points.

I would also like to see multiple, uber cheap, paper thin glass cannon vehicles for scouts, like AV 11/9/9 jeeps for scouts, can sit 5 men, and have a twin linked autocannon on the back of it similar to the warthog from Halo.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Dreadnoughts become T6 2+ MC's instead of walker vehicles.

None of this is going to happen. Squad upgrades for sergeants makes a very incoherent army, and putting them on a chapter master for a set cost causes issues with scaling, as upgrading 2 squads at 750-1000 points isn't the same as upgrading 10+ at 2500.

Scouts will likely get a Storm as a dedicated transport, but space marines use Storm Talons, bikes and Land Speeders for their fast and light duty attacks, not traditional ground vehicles, which is the domain of the Imperial Guard. Attack bikes with more weapon options...maybe, as the legion list has heavy flamer and autocannon bikes. I wouldn't be totally surprised to see a plasma-cannon bike variant either.

Dread are literally the poster boy for walkers, and switching them to a toughness/armor save would basically be the first step in phasing walkers out of the game altogether. Since we didn't see this in the CSM or DA codex....it's not going to happen.

We are likely to see;
8-10 "Chapter Relics" in the armory, 2 of which are amazing, 2 of which are okay, and the rest will be poor or extremely situational.
30-40 point break on most of the generic characters.
TH/SS terminators going up 5 points.
Whirlwinds, predators, razors, devastators to match the costs in the DA codex.
No changes to Storm Raven/Storm Talon.
Pretty much the same special characters, with maybe 1-2 of the old out, and 1-2 new ones in.
Tacticals down to 14 each, with the sergeant being optional, ala Dark Angels.
Bikes down to 20 points each.
ASM down 1 point each.
Legion of the damned are likely out.
A captain on a bike making bikes troops....I'm holding my breath on this one surviving the new book.
LRs and drop pods down to 10 models transported.
HUGE points break for vanguard with jump-packs

I'd wager on 1-2 new units, and there's a lot of directions they could go. A bigger terminator, a dreadknight sized walker, a vehicle between a pred and LR (14/12/10, lots of guns), variant Storm Raven/Talon, variant predators/whirlwinds, a special weapon spam squad (flamers, meltas, plasma...etc) and a dozen other options I could dream up.

I expect 1 or 2 "curve balls" thrown in from my dream list (which has about 50 things on it ATM) that are supposed to be the new lure to the vanilla book. Maybe army wide select-able chapter tactics, maybe company captain FoC shifts, maybe a new troop choice....could be any of a hundred of new things, but I don't really expect it to be anything significant or earth shattering that will overshadow the DA or CSM book.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
I would have to look over my older Space Marine books--but wasn't Ward's codex the first time a LR/Pod carried 12?

Also the last time I believe.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:


Regardless, I actually liked his Space Marine book--minus the Ultramarine special character parade.

The 5th Edition Space Marines Codex is the most "non-Ultramarine" ever written.

5th Edition had about 45% non-Ultramarine Special Character, whereas the 4th Edition one only had 40%

All the Ultramarine-specific units from 4th Edition, such as Calgars Honour Guard and Tyranid War Veterans were rebranded by Ward into generic "Honour Guard", "Sternguard", etc...

The painting/showcase section was greatly expanded from previously only 1 double-page with non-Ultramarines units to well over half.

Non-Ultramarine fluff was actually included for the first time, as the 4th Edition book had only Ultramarine stuff (mostly McNeill pushing his "Uriel" baby).

All the Ultramarine markings and iconography on every page (!) and every army-list entry (!) in the 4th Edition book was removed.

There has never been a Space Marine Codex with so little Ultramarines in it like the 5th Edition Codex by Mat Ward.

 Jimsolo wrote:
So opinions on Ward are pretty negative, but I don't think most folks have given him a fair shake.

Well, he basically started with crippling competitive gameplay for Warhammer 7th edition (Daemons) and wrote the financially desastrous 8th edition, so it is not just bad fluff writing.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 RogueMage wrote:

as for rules wise my biggest thing was giving flippin Terminators a 3+ Invulnerable! ..ridiculous in my opinion, but that's just my opinion

No its not only your opinion, i completly agree with you, Giving a 3++ to models in the game was just bat gak insane.

[...]

Say that to my Wraiths. They have base 3++ save, no armour save. And they die, sometimes insta-killed. All it needs is units focus firing on it and they will die.

Matt Ward had it's moments, let's say. I think that no matter what he writes, it becomes a "Either you love it, or you hate it" topic, there's no mid term. I hate how he treats the SoB but I love his New-crons fluff, and I think I'm on a minority because I have seen plenty of new-crons hate here in dakkadakka.

On topic: Those rumors look a bit bogus to me. I hope they really are trying to improve the SM formula being the iconic army they are, and the optional rule-books are good for the sake of variety (You can play with a Iyanden army just using the Codex, you don't need the optional book, only if you really want the fluff-iest as possible).

I just wonder what the new MC will be

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I hate how he treats the SoB but I love his New-crons fluff,

Which is part of the problem however. Ward never treated SoB any different than other writers did... Kelly in the Space Wolves Codex for example (which also features the by far most awkward Xenos-Marines bro-fist moment, with Eldar Scorpions and Wolf-Guard doing their odd Circle Dance routine in the Great Hall of Fenris). But people accept it in the Wolves-book, cause it's not Ward, but "hate" on it in the GK-Codex, cause 4Chan tells them to hate it.

These odd double-standards are what's so puzzling about it.

This is my take on Ward dexes...

The fluff is always written from a propagandistic pov. I have no problem with this, but to have Kaldor Draigo carve his name in Mortarion's heart was silly.

His rulesets for GK and Necrons are incredibly powerful, but I think that like the 5th ed Marine dex, they will be around for a long time and still be good. Only now is the marine book starting to suck through a lack of power or over expensive units.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I hate how he treats the SoB but I love his New-crons fluff,

Which is part of the problem however. Ward never treated SoB any different than other writers did... Kelly in the Space Wolves Codex for example (which also features the by far most awkward Xenos-Marines bro-fist moment, with Eldar Scorpions and Wolf-Guard doing their odd Circle Dance routine in the Great Hall of Fenris). But people accept it in the Wolves-book, cause it's not Ward, but "hate" on it in the GK-Codex, cause 4Chan tells them to hate it.

These odd double-standards are what's so puzzling about it.

What... foul sorcery is this?! I had no idea of this! Is this in the SW Codex? I have to go read this MADNESS

Puscifer wrote:

The fluff is always written from a propagandistic pov. I have no problem with this, but to have Kaldor Draigo carve his name in Mortarion's heart was silly.

Good thing he didn't then, eh?

 Iron Dragon wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
I, too hope he writes our next codex and this time make Sicarius a better HQ in game.
I do believe his books are well-balanced with a little touch of power someplace. But that is a good thing, no?

It feels like a bit of a letdown so far with 6th. It feels like the earlier codexes for 6th, (CSM and DA) aren't built with the same ... vision that the Tau and Eldar books are built with. Tau and Eldar both got unique new monsterous creatures and so far, are leaning towards the higher end of the power scale. Can't say the same of DA or CSM. =( You have the 'balanced' books, and then the Xeno books have a bunch of MC models. It's part of what makes psychic choir tyrnids so strong, is having toughness rather than AV.

I really hope C:SM gets something competitive.

Well, CSM was written before the 6th really even hit, as evidenced by the Helldrake, and DA were written with only the initial responses to 6th as feedback, so the flier is nerfed hard and the rest of the meta hadn't settled out yet. Daemons are also a bit off, but better, and 6th was pretty solidly in place when Tau and Eldar were being written, so they fit the meta and rules better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Carnage43 wrote:

We are likely to see;
8-10 "Chapter Relics" in the armory, 2 of which are amazing, 2 of which are okay, and the rest will be poor or extremely situational.
30-40 point break on most of the generic characters.
TH/SS terminators going up 5 points.
Whirlwinds, predators, razors, devastators to match the costs in the DA codex.
No changes to Storm Raven/Storm Talon.
Pretty much the same special characters, with maybe 1-2 of the old out, and 1-2 new ones in.
Tacticals down to 14 each, with the sergeant being optional, ala Dark Angels.
Bikes down to 20 points each.
ASM down 1 point each.
Legion of the damned are likely out.
A captain on a bike making bikes troops....I'm holding my breath on this one surviving the new book.
LRs and drop pods down to 10 models transported.
HUGE points break for vanguard with jump-packs

I agree with most of us but a few:
Pretty much the same special characters, with maybe 1-2 of the old out, and 1-2 new ones in.
They all have models, so I don't expect any current characters to go away. As for new ones, besides the possibility of BT being rolled in, my guess would be Chaplain Xavier of the Salamanders (with Terminator Armor option to make a new model for him) and a character for the Iron Hands.
Legion of the damned are likely out.
Again, there are quite a few models for them, so I expect them to stay.

As for new kits, per Hastings there is a new Rhino chassis model, which I guess will be either the Sabre tank hunter or a gun artillery of some type, and Heavy Terminators/light Dreadnoughts. As for a third kit and new unit, a plastic thunderfire/rapier destroyer would fit in well, and finally give people a plastic techmarine. Maybe a recut (dreadnought?) and since DA got a chaplain model as a mini-sprue, SM will most likely get a Librarian for their plastic clam pack.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I hate how he treats the SoB but I love his New-crons fluff,

Which is part of the problem however. Ward never treated SoB any different than other writers did... Kelly in the Space Wolves Codex for example (which also features the by far most awkward Xenos-Marines bro-fist moment, with Eldar Scorpions and Wolf-Guard doing their odd Circle Dance routine in the Great Hall of Fenris). But people accept it in the Wolves-book, cause it's not Ward, but "hate" on it in the GK-Codex, cause 4Chan tells them to hate it.

These odd double-standards are what's so puzzling about it.

Where, exactly, is that written? The closest I can find is on page 19 under An Alliance Broken, where Autarch Elenduil brings the fallen battle brothers after eldar and the space wolves fought off a Waaaagh!, when a mistranslation lead into the two trading blows and sending the sector into a three way war.

I know you get annoyed with people misrepresent Ward, but don't fall into the same traps.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 RogueMage wrote:

as for rules wise my biggest thing was giving flippin Terminators a 3+ Invulnerable! ..ridiculous in my opinion, but that's just my opinion

No its not only your opinion, i completly agree with you, Giving a 3++ to models in the game was just bat gak insane.

[...]

Say that to my Wraiths. They have base 3++ save, no armour save. And they die, sometimes insta-killed. All it needs is units focus firing on it and they will die.

Matt Ward had it's moments, let's say. I think that no matter what he writes, it becomes a "Either you love it, or you hate it" topic, there's no mid term. I hate how he treats the SoB but I love his New-crons fluff, and I think I'm on a minority because I have seen plenty of new-crons hate here in dakkadakka.

On topic: Those rumors look a bit bogus to me. I hope they really are trying to improve the SM formula being the iconic army they are, and the optional rule-books are good for the sake of variety (You can play with a Iyanden army just using the Codex, you don't need the optional book, only if you really want the fluff-iest as possible).

I just wonder what the new MC will be

There's a huge difference though between Wraiths having a 3++ save and Terminators having a 3++ save...
Wraiths have no armour save at all, That 3++ invuln is all they get, meaning you're likely treating them just like any other MEQ unit and drowning them in small arms fire.

Terminators on the other hand already have a 2+ armour save. This makes them pretty damn resilient against small and medium arms fire, thus making the natural counter to them anything with a low ap value. That's where the Storm Shield's 3++ becomes just too much - it's a heavy counter for what is meant to be a natural built-in weakness!
If Storm Shields where either a flat 4++ vs everything OR a 3++ in combat only, you wouldn't see nearly as much resentment about the things because they wouldn't be quite so insanely good.


That's Ward's biggest problem. He treats his rules writing like he wants the game to become just rock/papper/scissors/nuke.

Overall Codex Marines aren't too bad, but he did give them a couple of 'nuke options' in 3++ storm shields and transport capacity 12 Land Raiders. (which he even admitted he got disciplined for!)
But then go look at Blood Angels... They're pretty much nothing but rock to Codex Marines being scissors. Absolutely everything Marines can do, BA's do better and cheaper with faster & more cost efficient transports.
Grey Knights ruined 5th edition for a lot of people, and pretty much entirely removed two entire armies from the game itself! (at least until the WD Daemons update made Flamers & Screamer into the newest filth...)

As mentioned, he ruined Fantasy completely as well... 7th ed Orcs & Gobbos were so bad, even die-hard greenskin players shelved their armies! (and THAT'S saying something!) Why were they so crap? Because Ward doesn't like greenskins and didn't really want to do that particular project.
Then Daemons hit and they were nothing but an entire army book of nukes with multiple near-instant win lists. (MSU Horrors w/Dark Insanity 'Thirster, Nurgle 'uber anvils, Master of Sorcery spam, Bloodletter hordes of doom, Siren Song, Ld bombs, etc...)

And his first two 8th ed books aren't leaving much room for optimisium either.
Daemons of Chaos is a complete mess and looks like Ward again didn't care at all about the quality or final product. Half the book is useless crap, Nurgle is borderline OP, Reign of Comedy is brutal to the Daemon player, the no-brainers are shockingly obvious, etc...
Then two months later, High Elves come out and not only are they a very strong book with few real weaknesses, but Ward turns around and gives them an item that 100% screws over the entire Daemons book... you know, they one he'd written just before HE's?!


At least he's consistent about ruining Daemons and making them into a laughing stock... I guess that might be a positive depending what side you're on?!

Whoa now!

Why in the hell would Legion of the Damned be out?

Who is saying this or are you just talking out of your arse?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 RogueMage wrote:

...

...

...

... but he did give them a couple of 'nuke options' in 3++ storm shields and transport capacity 12 Land Raiders. (which he even admitted he got disciplined for!) ...

Tee hee hee… But how else can I have my LC(reroll to wound) terminators + terminator chaplain(reroll to hit to the unit) charge out of my LR? It is one of the most beautiful sights in the game

It is interesting to see the TH/SS terminators 2+/3++ are the same price as Lychguard 3+/4++., even if the Lychguard are S5 T5. Maybe in the next SM dex SS will be 4+

Moving to 40k General Discussion

 vim_the_good wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 RogueMage wrote:

...

...

...

... but he did give them a couple of 'nuke options' in 3++ storm shields and transport capacity 12 Land Raiders. (which he even admitted he got disciplined for!) ...

Tee hee hee… But how else can I have my LC(reroll to wound) terminators + terminator chaplain(reroll to hit to the unit) charge out of my LR? It is one of the most beautiful sights in the game

It is interesting to see the TH/SS terminators 2+/3++ are the same price as Lychguard 3+/4++., even if the Lychguard are S5 T5. Maybe in the next SM dex SS will be 4+

The Lychguard also have AP1 weapons that strike before I1, but yeah. It's not that TH/SS Terminators are undercosted, it's that Lychguard are overcosted.

 RogueMage wrote:

Mat Ward had Ultramarine oral diarrhea...if you grew up playing the game and played Marines you suddenly have a marine chapter who's 2nd best

This is just you not knowing the history of 40K, lol.

The back cover of Codex: Ultramarines from 1993 called them "The Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", and that gak was written by Priestley and Chambers. The Ultramarines have always been the best Space Marine Chapter, even if they've never had the best codex list, lol. With the exception of a few sentences that were worded a bit heavy handed, nearly all the material people complain about from C:SM5E existed before Mat Ward just compiled it for the 5th Edition Codex. But that's really not a big deal. Nearly all of the codex books, especially the Marine ones, feature the Chapter or its heroes doing something ridiculously over the top.

Mat Ward has to be the most irrationally hated man on the planet.

But then again, he wrote the Ultramarines codex, and the Ultramarines are the most irrationally hated Chapter in the game, even before the 5E codex dropped.

 SickSix wrote:
Whoa now!

Why in the hell would Legion of the Damned be out?

Who is saying this or are you just talking out of your arse?

Just my guess at what we are likely to see in the new book. LotD have been so laughably irrelevant for so long they are basically a waste of paper to keep printing the same crap. I could see a "Cursed Founding" supplement maybe for them and a few other chapters, but they really have no use or place in the vanilla marine book.