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Skullhammer wrote:
What ever anyone says CHS have infringed on GWs ip and that's been proven in court. If the didn't GW wouldn't have got a fiscal award in damages.

Ah, okay, you're right then. This Is Good News.

I feel sorry for the jury Forman that had to read all of those counts aloud...

"In the matter of whether the general size and shape of the item was infringed, we find the defendant not guilty.."



Etc.......

 sourclams wrote:
What is GW iconography? The GW corporate logo? I don't see any CHS rhino doors with 'Games Workshop' sculpted onto the side. If you're talking about the amalgamation of various historical symbols that constitutes what GW uses as Space Marine heraldry, then a couple things:

1. GW does not 'own' this stuff. The trial showed that. If GW did actually own this stuff they'd be able to present a piece of paper that shows actual ownership in the form of a legally defensible document.

2. CHS did actually 'get away with it' because it turns out producing resin mininature sculptures with open-source iconography is not actually against the law.

Ah, but we don't have the foggiest idea what iconography they got busted on.

People are acting like they got off scott-free on everything they made, which they didn't. From what we're told, GW won 37 Trademark claims and ~50-60 copyright claims in the trial. CHS makes a lot of stuff, but they don't make all that much.

Declaring something open-source isn't reality in trademark law. The Imperial Aquila on GW's books is a registered trademark; that means that someone got paid money to research it and decide that yes, it belongs to GW. The Aquila goes back to the damn Roman Empire, but that doesn't matter. Citgo uses a damned triangle as their logo, and you better believe it's trademarked. Most corporate logos are common, simple symbols, something that's easily recognizable and the fact that it exists in other forms doesn't mean it can't be trademarked.

Where GW probably got burned is in some of the vaguer things, where it's difficult to prove infringement, or where ownership was never registered and difficult to assert by prior use. Again, probably, because right now we're just speculating until we see the actual ruling. GW may have failed to assert trademark on the work jetbike, for example (which doesn't really hurt them), but the Pilum Jet Bike mini from CHS might have been rules in violation of copyright. Neither party "wins", but GW gets something out of it and CHS gets to resculpt a new jetbike without a Marine on the back.

 AustonT wrote:

Deodorant Tank
Origami Baneblade

Oh god, I remember those. I'm not sure what the relevance is though, to be honest.

 Kroothawk wrote:
@Raesvelg: I hope your posts don't contain relevant info. I have other big books to read first

The secrets to the universe are contained within. Only through suffering can you attain enlightenment.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

And in some cases is required to say what the part is to be used for - if you make a muffler that only works for a Ford Prefect then it needs to say that it is for a Ford Prefect. Doing so does not challenge the trademarks of either Ford nor the Ford Prefect.

Well golly gee, I think I said that exact thing already. Though I used Hondas and spoilers in my example. Because Hondas are better than Fords.

 Xzerios wrote:
Raesvelg, I have to ask; why the flag of Bastok? I played myself an' got my Elvaan of San'D to 75 on rdm, sam, rng, and thf. Cor was up and coming, but they turned around and proclaimed Rapture as XIV, thats when I quit. Oh yea, my rng was boss on the Dlord, 13k in 10 seconds (damn lag!) Haha!

Mostly I wanted to see how many posts I'd get in before someone recognized it and commented lol.

In a moment of pure synchronicity that gives one cause to ponder the existence of the divine, the answer was 42.

 Raesvelg wrote:
Ah, but we don't have the foggiest idea what iconography they got busted on.

It very nearly doesn't matter what specifically they did win when you can pick 3 items and CHS won two of them. That's more or less the definition of 'won the battle but lost the war (by losing battle after battle)'.

The scope of the trial isn't a close gap. GW hemorrhaged defensible objets d'arte from start to finish.

Anyone happen to know if they tried to claim the Maltese Cross or the Teutonic Knights-ish scheme of the Black Templars as their original iconography?

I believe that was included initially but got discarded before the trial.

Edit: I could be wrong on this, though. GW claims the Black Templar's chapter symbol (of the Teutonic Cross) in their blanket statement of things that are trademarked and I may be misapplying this particular instance to the CHS trial.

Big. Brass. Balls.

 Seaward wrote:
Big. Brass. Balls.

You'll get a kick out of this then:

In support of its independent-creation argument, Chapterhouse has submitted two separate motions seeking judicial notice. The first is a request for judicial notice of two political symbols displayed on the Anti-Defamation League’s website. The first, a symbol for the Nationalist Movement (a white-supremacist group), depicts a white cross comprised of two double-sided arrows set against a red background. The second, a symbol for the Ku Klux Klan, depicts a white cross with a red teardrop shape in the middle set against a circular red background. In its second request for judicial notice, Chapterhouse asks the Court to take judicial notice of H.R. Giger’s 1976 painting, Necronom IV, posted on Wikipedia. GW does not contest the motions. The Court grants Chapterhouse’s requests for judicial notice. Fed. R. Civ. P. 201(b).

(From waaaaay waaaaay back in the case)

So does this mean that items can now be easily sold as "Greater Daemon of Skull Taking - an alternative to GW 40k Greater Daemon of Khorne" providing the sculpt isnt sufficient similar but contains elements enough to make it GW looking?

Nobody knows yet. No final judgment.


However, CHS has recently changed their website in that sort of direction. They aren't stepping back at all:
Old Version

ChapterHouse Studios specializes in the creation of high end resin and metal miniature kits and parts applicable for use in a wide variety of Fantasy and Sci-fi Roleplaying and Wargaming. Our mission is to help address public demand for unavailable parts and iconography with the highest standards possible. As our company grows, so to does our ambition, and in the upcoming months we will be introducing some truly fantastic conversion kits and brand new miniatures! We can’t wait to share our new work with you, so stay tuned!

Current

ChapterHouse Studios specializes in the creation of high end resin and metal miniature kits and buts applicable for use with a variety of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k models and the games. Our mission is to help address public demand for unavailable parts and iconography with the highest standards possible. The general idea of our company is that every player should be able to add his own style and flavor to the models and armies they own and we aim to help do that.



SITE UPDATE - The Different styles of Heresy Era Shoulder Pads that are compatible with Games Workshop Terminator models are now back up for sale here!!

Heresy-Era Shoulder Pads for Terminators Type A - 2 pads


This is a set of 2 pewter shoulder pads designed to fit on Games Workshops Space Marine® Terminator figures. Each pad is designed in a style that will fit in with Heresy Era collections and the bad itself has draping armored segments flowing down and 3 distinct armored sections on the upper armor.

This component comes unpainted and is designed to fit on Games Workshop Space Marine® Terminator figures (figure shown for scale and one example of use only).

----------

This is why you see folks talking about something that on the face of it looks like a win (25k damages, prevailing on some claims) actually ending up being a big loss.

The original version of the CHS web site listed things like

Space Marine shoulder pad

This was later changed to Shoulder pad compatible with Space Marine.

GW probably included both usages in their claims and won the first but not the second. Anyone should win the first because it can easily be taken as "passing off". No-one should win the second because it is a completely legitimate use of the trademarked terms.

However, since CHS stopped that usage a couple of years ago, it is academic that they can't do it now. More importantly, they have been granted permission to use huge numbers of GW trademarks including some registered ones.

See the press release from the defence law firm.

http://www.winston.com/index.cfm?contentID=30&itemID=4587

I really hope this opens the flood gates for CHS, I really don't play a whole lot of 40k and the only thing I've bought from them is their ymargyl heads. I hope they continue to innovate new products so I can reward them with my wallet.

Backfire wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

It seems that a lot of white knights just do not get the fact that

The
Aftermarket
Parts
Business
Is
Legal.

Nobody has ever disputed that, the question is whether specific trademarks or copyrights were violated. People bring up car & guns aftermarket business - but there too manufacturers can and DO stomp on the aftermarket parts makers if they thing the parts are too reminiscent of their own designs, just like GW does.

Care to bet on that? I need the money.

Go through the thread - I can find some examples just a couple of pages back on the Lawsuit Update thread - after GW lost on so much of the cases, and it had been pointed out that it is legal.

There shouldn't be anybody disputing it, yet dispute it they do.

Because people are monkeys.

The Auld Grump would like to apologize to any monkeys that are offended by his above statement.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

Deodorant Tank
Origami Baneblade

Oh god, I remember those. I'm not sure what the relevance is though, to be honest.

Typically one uses the quote box above the new comment to derive context, if you can write novels about whatever it is you're on about; I'm reasonably certain you'll figure it out.

 AustonT wrote:

Typically one uses the quote box above the new comment to derive context, if you can write novels about whatever it is you're on about; I'm reasonably certain you'll figure it out.

There's a difference between not understanding the insinuation and not finding to it have relevance.

There is a thought in the "real News thread" I wanted to explore but it would have been offtopic as consequences are not a discussion of the case. Lets discuss it here.

 Orinoco wrote:
I think they're worried about companies making "not space marines" and losing sales on Space Marines TM

Indeed - I can't help but think the real threat to them is not Chapterhouse, but actually, companies like Anvil Industries. Anvil makes a very similar product, there is no handy hook upon which to hang a lawsuit, and the production quality for Anvil is very nearly as good as vanilla Space Marines (indeed, I think many of the weapons are already better)... and he's always, refining, always polishing his lines and updating them.

Do you guys think that the case will embolden more shops/hobbyists/etc to start making similar lines?

Yes, I think we'll see some proliferation now. Some will be good, some bad. The market will dictate who will survive.

GW will need to watch out for companies reaching the point where they can afford tooling on larger kits in the SF war gaming niche. Anvil are slowly progressing that way, Secret Weapon and Antenociti's are already nearly there (and are there with resin kits which put entry level buyers off a bit).

Love those tox troopers on Anvil's site. Most definitely do want.

Resin is not a good material for tabletop wargame figures.

I see the Anvil Industries figures as boutique products for experienced modellers, much like Forge World. To rival GW more directly they would need to be done in polystyrene.

Mantic and other companies are starting to do that, though, so perhaps Anvil might go down that route.

Finecrap is resin.. did you know that?
Everything is perfectly fine for gaming if you know how to handle them...

Yeah, we use a lot of resin wild west figs. They're fine. Good idea to weight bases, but the same is true with plastic.

You could make models out of Gallium and they would be fine if people knew how to handle them, but most people don't know how to handle figures.

That is why robust designs and materials are better.

Finecrap is a flexible resin with filler material, made more robust for tabletop use.

Wait.. what? I saw Finecast break dozend of times when minis bounced of a hard floor....

You're probably see metal and polystyrene break too.

True.
So? That's what I said, wasn't it?
Almost all materials can be used for wargaming...

Some are better than others. It depends on the factors of strength, cost, ease of manufacture, ease of assembly, and detail.

Resin is not as good as polystyrene for inexperienced users, on most of those factors.

Resin is not a good material for tabletop wargame figures.

vs

Resin is not as good as polystyrene for inexperienced users, on most of those factors.

There already is a shift in quality in your posts.

Sure, plastic might be better.. but does that really mean resin is BAD?

Given the sheer number of headless, unpainted Space Marine torsos with a meltagun or missile launcher glued to the base that I've seen and played against on the tabletop, I highly doubt that "oh, resin" is going to turn many people away from a model if they were already considering a substitute purchase.

If you understand the difference between a resin or a plastic model, then you're probably advanced enough to deal with the ad'l intricacy.

If you don't understand the difference between resin or plastic, then your only concern is probably getting your mits on a serviceable model for 1/4 the price.

 Ouze wrote:
There is a thought in the "real News thread" I wanted to explore but it would have been offtopic as consequences are not a discussion of the case. Lets discuss it here.

 Orinoco wrote:
I think they're worried about companies making "not space marines" and losing sales on Space Marines TM

Indeed - I can't help but think the real threat to them is not Chapterhouse, but actually, companies like Anvil Industries. Anvil makes a very similar product, there is no handy hook upon which to hang a lawsuit, and the production quality for Anvil is very nearly as good as vanilla Space Marines (indeed, I think many of the weapons are already better)... and he's always, refining, always polishing his lines and updating them.

Do you guys think that the case will embolden more shops/hobbyists/etc to start making similar lines?

First, Anvil had the luxury to do that because it hasn't been involved in a lawsuit for the past two and a half years. So, yes, I think the CHS lawsuit has already emboldened companies. I think a favorable result for CHS will embolden them further, if by embolden you mean exercise their rights to use trademarks nominatively within the limits of fair use and create unique artistic expressions based on similar ideas and sources.

That was the first I've seen of those tox troopers, absolutely superb. I have always liked plenty of his stuff, and even when I haven't I admire the talent and effort.

Generally I really admire the enthusiastic entrepreneurs that make this gak... which is why I've backed so many kickstarters and indiegogos even though I never get around to painting any of them!

It makes me wish I was better at something other than simply being a witty, handsome, God of war. :(

RoninXiC wrote:
Resin is not a good material for tabletop wargame figures.

vs

Resin is not as good as polystyrene for inexperienced users, on most of those factors.

There already is a shift in quality in your posts.

Sure, plastic might be better.. but does that really mean resin is BAD?

Fundamentally resin is bad. It's okay for blocky models like spaceships and large vehicles. It is pretty easy to damage for thin parts like infantry figures.

Experienced users are better at dealing with it, as they understand its qualities.

A material which is good for some of users is not as good as a material which is good for all of users.