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I disagree. Generally the larger the part you're trying to cast the greater the warping. From general use, I've had no damage on resin models. 'course if you keep your models in a bucket...

The functionality of resin is not the consequence of the GW vs. Chapterhouse verdict.

So looking at the CHS website it appears, or at least it does so to me, that all compatable bits, minus a few, are okay, but complete, competing, kits are not.

EG Doomseer, not a scorpion and Truscale.

If thats one of the rulings from the trial, it does not bode well for other companies that make not-a figurines.

Come on Judge, type quicker!

Cheers

Andrew

I'm probably the target demographic that KK is talking about. I don't look at the models as "art"; they're physical representations on a plank of wood, game pieces for the game I play. I hate resin. It's a high maintenance material that you must wash, use hot water to soften so that you may straighten or use other materials to fill in defects. I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with it. I do, however, have a fairly large amount of disposable income which companies that depend on resin for their products do not benefit from. Give me plastics leave the "pro modeling" for those that have more time to dedicate to it.

Edit: sorry for contributing to the off-topic chain but it is somewhat relevant in that CHS won't be seeing any of my money for the same reason. Sad too because I like the idea of magnetized razorback kits.

weeble1000 wrote:

Remember that back in the beginning of this case, Magistrate Judge Gilbert told the parties that after this whole thing was over, both companies were still going to be alive, in business, in the same market, and they would have to find some way to coexist.

His point was that even if GW wanted to be harsh, wanted to be unreasonable, and wanted to go all the way to a jury verdict, GW was still not going to be able to get what it wanted, so why not work it out like reasonable people beforehand and save everyone a lot of time and money.

Well, GW ignored his advice and you see what happened.

This ^. GW has consistently demonstrated that it doesn't want to share the market with anyone and they're willing to bully people out of it. Well, this time they should have played nice. Now there exists a precedent and it's going to be that much harder for them to bully other garage businesses now.

If I remember correctly didn't a couple of guys get hounded by GW some years back? One was running a fan site for BFG if I remember correctly and the other was producing models for use with Bloodbowl. Are they likely to make a return or has too much time gone by?

GW did a big round of suppression of Blood Bowl fan sites about three years ago (I think).

It seems to have been triggered by someone making models for star players in BB that GW did not make the models for.

Now that the dam is broken, will GW have to tolerate fansites as legal?

Good thing that the Fantasy Football scene is alive and kicking, with new non-GW releases every month, with better quality than old GW models.

Yeh , they did a C& D on Fumbl over some of their names being used - poss around the time of the Video Game coming out - could be related to wanting to protect that IP that they licenced to whoever made that Vid game as I think other Bloodbowl sites were targetted and IIRC one had to shut down .

BOT Seems to me that CHS may be a vanguard for a possible wave - would be good to see CHS benefit for their stance

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW did a big round of suppression of Blood Bowl fan sites about three years ago (I think).

It seems to have been triggered by someone making models for star players in BB that GW did not make the models for.

GW responded by killing the rules for those models. So defeating the purpose for making models for rules which can't be used. This is the same reason why they won't release rules for models they don't make anymore, and by being the first to the market with a model, it drains the potential need for 3rd party (except if the model sucks)

This is why PP doesn't have this issue. They wrote rules which squash conversions and weapon options so the only reason to go 3rd party for PP is if you really dislike the look of the original mode.

While shoulderpads/guardalternatives/headswaps may still have a market... Who is going to buy 3rd party Tervigons now that GW has a model? Who will buy a 3rd party wraithknight now that it has a model? Right now a market which seems to be blowing up is 3rd party ADLs due to a lack of faction specific ones. If GW had released faction-specific fortifications rules with appropriate models, we would see almost zero market for the custom models.

It does feel like while 3rd party Bitz are alive and well, 3rd party models due to the change it rule-release with models is being reduced. I haven't seen hardly any real total 3rd party models for core codex models since GW changed their release schedule.

Is it funny that my work firewall labels the lawyers press release as "Suspicious" and blocks access to it...

 agnosto wrote:
I'm probably the target demographic that KK is talking about. I don't look at the models as "art"; they're physical representations on a plank of wood, game pieces for the game I play. I hate resin. It's a high maintenance material that you must wash, use hot water to soften so that you may straighten or use other materials to fill in defects. I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with it. I do, however, have a fairly large amount of disposable income which companies that depend on resin for their products do not benefit from. Give me plastics leave the "pro modeling" for those that have more time to dedicate to it.

Edit: sorry for contributing to the off-topic chain but it is somewhat relevant in that CHS won't be seeing any of my money for the same reason. Sad too because I like the idea of magnetized razorback kits.

Well cast resin requires far less work than equivalent plastic kits. It's definitely not difficult with good models. The only real difference for the most part is the glue you have to use.
You should wash all models prior to priming anyway; even finger grease from handling during basic clean up can bork the job.

nkelsch wrote:
This is why PP doesn't have this issue. They wrote rules which squash conversions and weapon options so the only reason to go 3rd party for PP is if you really dislike the look of the original mode.

I think this is wrong, being both a WMH and 40k player.
PP don't have this problem, because they have *models* which squash conversions. Until recently, the vast majority of PP's line has been metal, and now they have some models in restic. There are very few models which are multi-part for any reason other than casting convenience - nothing has replaceable shoulder pads. PP models get converted less not because players don't want to convert, it is just bloody difficult compared to GW stuff.
GW models invite conversion. Arms which end at the wrist so different weapons can be attached. Torsos, legs, heads and arms separately on the sprue.
That, and PP don't have this 'problem' because they are not big enough yet.

Also the wealth of fluff in 40k. The richness of the background, and whatever John Blanche used to smoke, makes a lot of variety and conversions desirable.

Trasvi wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
This is why PP doesn't have this issue. They wrote rules which squash conversions and weapon options so the only reason to go 3rd party for PP is if you really dislike the look of the original mode.

I think this is wrong, being both a WMH and 40k player.
PP don't have this problem, because they have *models* which squash conversions. Until recently, the vast majority of PP's line has been metal, and now they have some models in restic. There are very few models which are multi-part for any reason other than casting convenience - nothing has replaceable shoulder pads. PP models get converted less not because players don't want to convert, it is just bloody difficult compared to GW stuff.
GW models invite conversion. Arms which end at the wrist so different weapons can be attached. Torsos, legs, heads and arms separately on the sprue.
That, and PP don't have this 'problem' because they are not big enough yet.

I don't know that I agree with much of this.

We were driven to convert when GW had a mostly metal too. PPs metals are just as 'multi-part' as GW's metals were. And PP has a Bitz store. I don't agree it is 'harder' to convert... just lack of motivation or reason to convert.

Why should I change the look of a warjack? Why should I do a weapon swap on a Gatorman? Unless there are rules or fluff driving me to do so, there is almost no reason to attempt to modify a stock model.

PP designed rules which don't require or even allow for conversions and defined a universe with the touched-upon fluff represented in models. If they had gone into a wide array of different types of clans which shared rules or lots of unseen beasties, then there would be a reason.

And PP is pretty large. Arguably it is larger than 40k if you consider warmahordes 1 game, I would expect to see a proportionate focus on PP to their marketshare, but there is almost zero 3rd party stand-ins. Lack of fluff and rules means a lack of models.

Trasvi wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
This is why PP doesn't have this issue. They wrote rules which squash conversions and weapon options so the only reason to go 3rd party for PP is if you really dislike the look of the original mode.

I think this is wrong, being both a WMH and 40k player.
PP don't have this problem, because they have *models* which squash conversions. Until recently, the vast majority of PP's line has been metal, and now they have some models in restic. There are very few models which are multi-part for any reason other than casting convenience - nothing has replaceable shoulder pads. PP models get converted less not because players don't want to convert, it is just bloody difficult compared to GW stuff.
GW models invite conversion. Arms which end at the wrist so different weapons can be attached. Torsos, legs, heads and arms separately on the sprue.
That, and PP don't have this 'problem' because they are not big enough yet.

That's funny I was MORE apt to convert my metal minis...

Does anyone have a complete list of all the kits Chapterhouse have removed from their website?

nkelsch wrote:

Why should I change the look of a warjack? Why should I do a weapon swap on a Gatorman? Unless there are rules or fluff driving me to do so, there is almost no reason to attempt to modify a stock model.

Because some of the model/weapon looks like gak and you think you can make it look better? There are some weapons on those models that are truly horrendous. As for saying there is lack of fluff limits conversions, you really are only limited by your imagination. When starting WM, had the idea of a corrupted (Cryx) Cygnar army. Whole idea was based on the thought that Haley's mind was warped from having to use a Cryx jack in her battle with her sister. Didn't follow through after reading and hearing about PP's restrictive view on conversions. That and all the metal cutting involved

And don't think PP isn't big enough. The conversion/bit sights are already servicing them with bases. If they weren't, you wouldn't see the round lipped bases that are available, only bevel edge. By having active support for tournaments, PP has enabled a policy that prevents 3rd parties from being able to edge in on their business. If were GW were to become heavily active in supporting tournaments again and require a similarly restrictive policy, you would see a lot of the 3rd bit sites suffer.

To add to the list of $1,000,000 better spent, GW could have thrown that money at global tournament support and probably had a bigger impact on their bottom line than this suit.

*edit* removed portion for incorrect assumption.

silent25 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Why should I change the look of a warjack? Why should I do a weapon swap on a Gatorman? Unless there are rules or fluff driving me to do so, there is almost no reason to attempt to modify a stock model.

Because some of the model/weapon looks like gak and you think you can make it look better? There are some weapons on those models that are truly horrendous. As for saying there is lack of fluff limits conversions, you really are only limited by your imagination. When starting WM, had the idea of a corrupted (Cryx) Cygnar army. Whole idea was based on the thought that Haley's mind was warped from having to use a Cryx jack in her battle with her sister. Didn't follow through after reading and hearing about PP's restrictive view on conversions. That and all the metal cutting involved

Funny that you mention Cygnar-Cryx as something you wanted...give me a sec

edit: dangit I can't find it, it was a great thing on the PP forums of a guy who converted Cygnar into half-Cryx half-Cygnar stuff. I'm going to keep looking.

 motyak wrote:

silent25 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Why should I change the look of a warjack? Why should I do a weapon swap on a Gatorman? Unless there are rules or fluff driving me to do so, there is almost no reason to attempt to modify a stock model.

Because some of the model/weapon looks like gak and you think you can make it look better? There are some weapons on those models that are truly horrendous. As for saying there is lack of fluff limits conversions, you really are only limited by your imagination. When starting WM, had the idea of a corrupted (Cryx) Cygnar army. Whole idea was based on the thought that Haley's mind was warped from having to use a Cryx jack in her battle with her sister. Didn't follow through after reading and hearing about PP's restrictive view on conversions. That and all the metal cutting involved

Funny that you mention Cygnar-Cryx as something you wanted...give me a sec

edit: dangit I can't find it, it was a great thing on the PP forums of a guy who converted Cygnar into half-Cryx half-Cygnar stuff. I'm going to keep looking.

It was called cryx-nar. Here ya go: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?53190-Cryx-nar-an-epic-conversion-adventure

Also just for good measure, Khador/Cygnar (the Stormhammer brigade): http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul

I know the Stormhammer stuff has been allowed in major competition before as well. People keep thinking the PP conversion policy is unbendably rigid, but actually it's just about making sure your models are still recognizable for what they're meant to be. I mean, if someone declared their stormraven was a Vendetta, or that a powersword was a thunderhammer, that would be pretty frowned upon in 40k too. Plus, I've seen long loooong debates over whether setting up Landraiders to fire from the front ports or the back ports is "Modelling for Advantage". Really, the only difference is that PP has clearly laid out guidelines to help keep things recognisable, BUT ALSO has a very specific line that ANY conversion can be approved of by a TO at his discretion (Rule of Cool trumps all).

 Maddermax wrote:


It was called cryx-nar. Here ya go: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?53190-Cryx-nar-an-epic-conversion-adventure

Also just for good measure, Khador/Cygnar (the Stormhammer brigade): http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul

I know the Stormhammer stuff has been allowed in major competition before as well. People keep thinking the PP conversion policy is unbendably rigid, but actually it's just about making sure your models are still recognizable for what they're meant to be. I mean, if someone declared their stormraven was a Vendetta, or that a powersword was a thunderhammer, that would be pretty frowned upon in 40k too. Plus, I've seen long loooong debates over whether setting up Landraiders to fire from the front ports or the back ports is "Modelling for Advantage". Really, the only difference is that PP has clearly laid out guidelines to help keep things recognisable, BUT ALSO has a very specific line that ANY conversion can be approved of by a TO at his discretion (Rule of Cool trumps all).

Yea, I saw that, but being at the mercy of a TO isn't that appealing when you are about to embark on a major conversion project.

And I think that's enough about PP's policies on conversions. Even for a thread with an intentionally broad topic, we're wandering pretty far afield.

One of the possible outcomes that I would like to see is folks creating WH40K material, and coming up with the rules to support the new stuff. Not good for organized or tournament play - but for friendly games? It would be fun.

Mind you, GW being GW they would sue over that and unless taken to court about something that has already been well established as legal....

The Auld Grump

I think GW would be fine with that as long as you don't try to make money from it.

The setup of 40K is left open so people can make their own SM chapters, Hive Fleets and so on, to do campaigns and what-not.

GW wouldn't like it if you used non-GW models for your variant forces.

I think the biggest change is gw will not release stuff unless they can protect it 100%. Codex will either have less new or take longer to release.

Now this is a wild guess and hope to god I'm way off and wrong and being weird, but I cod see gw changing every kit that chapterhouse is making bits for so none of their bits work with current models.

I know at a local gw store they cracked down on models that don't look like full gw. They even said something about my resin bases.

 cgage00 wrote:
Now this is a wild guess and hope to god I'm way off and wrong and being weird, but I cod see gw changing every kit that chapterhouse is making bits for so none of their bits work with current models.

That's going to be really difficult with some of those. Hard to make a Terminator Shoulder Pad obsolete without going to full-bodied, monopose models. It would also cost quite a bit to re-do basically their entire Marine line.

I do think that you'll see GW releasing far fewer 'empty' codices--every entry is going to have a model.

silent25 wrote:

But one last point on GW losing to a small garage operation. It was pointed out in the main CHS vs. GW thread that it appeared CHS got upwards of $4,000,000 in pro-bono work. They outspent GW 4:1, but CHS was only able to get about a 60/40 split on the ruling. For that much spent, CHS should have gotten off scot-free.

Where? I would like to read that for myself.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

silent25 wrote:

But one last point on GW losing to a small garage operation. It was pointed out in the main CHS vs. GW thread that it appeared CHS got upwards of $4,000,000 in pro-bono work. They outspent GW 4:1, but CHS was only able to get about a 60/40 split on the ruling. For that much spent, CHS should have gotten off scot-free.

Where? I would like to read that for myself.

~Eric

aka_mythos threw the number out: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4980/355433.page#5740730

But looking at it, he also believes GW spent more than the $1 million being tossed around, so my 4:1 comment is incorrect. The 3 - 4 times comment stuck in my head.

silent25 wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

silent25 wrote:

But one last point on GW losing to a small garage operation. It was pointed out in the main CHS vs. GW thread that it appeared CHS got upwards of $4,000,000 in pro-bono work. They outspent GW 4:1, but CHS was only able to get about a 60/40 split on the ruling. For that much spent, CHS should have gotten off scot-free.

Where? I would like to read that for myself.

~Eric

aka_mythos threw the number out: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4980/355433.page#5740730

But looking at it, he also believes GW spent more than the $1 million being tossed around, so my 4:1 comment is incorrect. The 3 - 4 times comment stuck in my head.

So, a comment that was pure speculation then? When you wrote your initial comment I thought there had been some sort of factual release of the information somewhere. If there was, someone will point it out to me and then the rest of my post will be irrelevant. If there wasn't, read on:

The reason that I bring it up is that some people will read what you wrote and take it as fact, which it seems not to be. Then we as a community will spend a very long time correcting them every time it is re-posted. It just doesn't help in the larger discussion. Not trying to pick on you or Aka_mythos. Just want you to think about it from that angle.

Thanks for taking the time to dig up the specific link, I appreciate that.

~Eric

The costs are pure speculation, yes, and the $1 million is hugely conservative. As in someone reckoned that they'd probably spent $1 million in disposition work based on the hours involved and approximate hourly rates for the sort of people working on them.

In reality, the number will be many times greater, but the costs have been amortized in their financial statements so it'll be hard to get an actual figure without some insider details.

I don't think there's much risk of CHS's theoretical legal costs exceeding the actual costs from GW. Which just makes GW's victory even more pyrrhic.