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I couldn't be arsed to do any painting last night and wanted to try out some lists, so did an Eldar vs Daemons game.

Chaos Daemons

HQ

Keeper of Secrets - mastery level 2 & greater reward (psychic screech, invisibility & re-roll inv saves)
Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, wings, power armour & the black mace

Troops

10 x Pink Horrors
10 x Pink Horrors
10 x Chaos Cultists
10 x Chaos Cultists

Fast Attack

10 x Flesh Hounds
10 x Flesh Hounds
Heldrake - baleflamer

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, warp forged armour, daemonic flight & 2 x greater rewards (lash & +1 wound & it will not die)
Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, warp forged armour, daemonic flight & 2 x greater rewards (lash & re-roll inv)
Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, warp forged armour, daemonic flight & 2 x greater rewards (lash & re-roll inv)

Eldar

HQ

Spiritseer (conceal/reveal & embolden/horrify)

Troops

5 x Wraithguard w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield
5 x Wraithguard w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked scatter lasers & holofield

Fast Attack

Vyper - shuriken cannon
Vyper - shuriken cannon

Heavy Support

2 x War Walkers - scatter lasers
2 x War Walkers - scatter lasers
2 x War Walkers - scatter lasers

Game: dawn of war + relic - night fighting active

Deployment

Eldar won the roll off for deployment and first turn and went first, hoping to gun down some Princes before they take off. All War Walkers deploy in front of a large ruin in the centre - they can use battle focus to fall back into cover and use terrain as a buffer to block assaults. Serpents and Vypers deploy evenly each side of the ruin, Spiritseer is with Wraithguard on the right flank.

Daemons deploy spread out using ruins to block LOS. One unit of Flesh Hounds deploys in the centre in open ground while another deploys on the right flank in open ground supported by Pink Horrors. Keeper, Mace Prince and both Cultist units deploy in the large shrine ruin on the Daemon table edge. Remaining Slaanesh Princes deploy behind tower ruin on Daemon table edge with LOS blocked. Horrors deploy in the tower ruin for support and cover purposes.

Turn 1

Flesh Hounds scout, centre unit rocks up in a large centre ruin and is in assault range of the Eldar while the unit on the right rocks up in a large ruin and is also in assault range with fair rolls. Daemons attempt to seize and roll a big fat 1.

Eldar: Eldar move to get better LOS on the Hounds and so they do not get the stealth benefit, though unit on the right is far back so will get benefit either way. Spiritseer does cast conceal on his own Serpent.

Shooting; Eldar fire into the Flesh Hounds, unit on the right only loses three Hounds after cracking cover saves thanks to stealth while the centre unit absorbs most punishment and only has four Hounds left. War Walkers do battle focus (this was after shooting btw), one rolls into terrain other two are left hanging thanks to gakky rolls and thanks to traffic. Vyper, Seer-Serpent and supporting Serpent blast the IWND Prince, it fails two armour saves.

Daemons; all Princes become airborne, one flys over the Vyper on the right while two fly over the Spiritseer's ride. Keeper casts invisibility, but gets crappy move through terrain and run rolls so is standing in the open - at least will get 4+ cover save. Horrors on the right move to get into range of Vyper on the right while Hounds move up to get first turn assaults in. Princes vector strike the Seers Serpent and do nothing and only glance the Vyper.

Warp Storm Table - +1 inv saves

Shooting: two lashes go into the Spiritseer's ride and shrouding stacked with holofield keeps it alive. Unfortunately a Serpent near the Flesh Hounds is stunned. Horrors both fire at the Vypers, Vyper on the left goes down and Daemons get first blood while the other just loses a hull point as it gets cover from a ruin combined with stealth.

Assault: four Flesh Hounds charge the War Walkers, a Hound dies though a War Walker is stunned. Large Hound unit multi assaults the Vyper and two Serpents, does nothing to the Vyper and one Serpent but immobilises the Wraithguard Serpent.

Turn 2

Eldar; all vehicles move away from the large Flesh Hound unit and prepare to blast them to bits, though Wraithguard bail out and target the Mace Prince up ahead. War Walkers pop out as Serpents on the Eldar right flank move to down a Prince; Wraithguard bail out, though Spiritseer stays inside and casts shrouding on them - they move into a ruin for 2+ cover save.

Shooting; Serpents blast one of the Princes and it fails an armour and falls down, though saves inv from grounded test - Wraithguard blast it and kill it even after re-rolls thanks to gift. Vyper puts some shots into the Flesh Hounds along with a Serpent, only kill two Hounds thanks to the +1 inv from the warp table. Mace Prince gets shot by two Serpents and two War Walker units, only fails two wounds and stays up in the air - Wraithguard shoot hoping to hit but totally fail. Both War Walkers do battle focus, one goes back into terrain the other rolls a 1 - food for the Mace Prince.

Assault: Flesh Hounds take down the immobilised Serpent as still engaged while other Hounds duke it out with the War Walkers.

Daemons roll for reserves and the Heldrake arrives. It comes on the right flank and blasts down ready to burn the exposed Wraithguard who shot at the Mace Prince.

Daemons; Keeper casts invisibility and comes through terrain towards the stunned Wave Serpent. Princes move about to get in rear armour of the remaining two Serpents on the Eldar right flank - no point shooting at Wraithguard as the swines have a 2+ cover and it is the Serpents which can bring down the Princes easier. Mace Prince drops down ready to mash some War Walkers while Hounds move to assault a Wave Serpent. Unit of Cultists come up and make a move for the relic, poor rolls leaves them out in the open to die.

Warp Storm Table - khorne's wrath, only hits the Mace Prince and scatters off anyway.

Shooting; Horrors fire at the last Vyper but it gets denied. A Prince opens up the Wraithseer's ride with rear armour shots - Wraithseer bails out in terrain blocking LOS from the Prince and Horrors in the tower. Other Prince lashes rear armour of the other Serpent, which holofield does well and the Serpent only takes a single glance. Heldrake roasts the Wraithguard and only one remains.

Assault; Mace Prince charges and rolls a 2 for mace attacks, a War Walker goes down after extremely good force field saves, this is a bonus as the Mace Prince is locked in combat and cannot be shot at. Flesh Hounds charge a Serpent but only score a glance. Other Hounds take out a War Walker; one left now. Keeper smashes the stunned Serpent, it goes boom and two Avengers die, they pass morale and pinning.

Turn 3

Eldar; remaining Serpents on the Eldar left flank eject the Avengers who are ready to gun down the Hounds with Vyper support. Serpents move up to blast Cultists who have made a run for the relic. Wraithseer can see the Keeper through a window and casts reveal, Keeper rolls a 5+ and denies. Remaining Serpent moves down so the Wraithseer can get in, though it has moved 12" so this cannot happen until next turn.

Shooting; Hounds get destroyed by Vyper and Avengers, both units use battle focus to spread either side and out from the Heldrake. One Wave Serpent kills the Cultists to the last man who fails morale and runs off. The other Serpent dakkas the Heldrake, it fails a penetrating save and is locked velocity. Wraithguard, depleted Avengers and last Serpent on the right flank blast the Keeper and it drops 2 wounds as it isn't in terrain so only 4+ cover - Avengers battle focus and fall back, but still in assault range.

Assault; Mace Prince flattens the War Walker while Flesh Hounds just glance the other one, it now has a single hull point left.

Daemons; Heldrake flys 18" across the table, Keeper moves to engage the Wraithguard while both Princes drop down - one goes for the three Avengers the other towards the Spiritseer and stops him through the window. Mace Prince goes to tackle the other War Walker unit. Cultists move through terrain towards the relic, Horrors on in the tower ruin move down and out towards the relic - both need another two turns to reach it.

Warp Storm Table - khorne's wrath, which does bugger all.

Shooting; Pink Horrors blast the Vyper again and this time take it out. Prince destroys the Avengers with lash with 11 shots while the other Prince gets 6 and rips the Spiritseer in half and scores slay the warlord. Heldrake burns and destroys an Avenger unit - cheated as Heldrake is locked velocity, also fails to gain a hull point back.

Assault; Mace Prince assaults and rolls a 6 for mace attacks, totally destroys the War Walkers. Keeper smashes the Wraithguard and kills three, they fail to score any wounds. Flesh Hounds fail to damage the War Walker, though the War Walker kills one of them - they pass daemonic instability.

Turn 4

Eldar; remaining Avengers on the open get back into their ride as it moves back towards them. Lone Wraithguard moves to blast the Mace Prince. Remaining Serpent on the right flank cannot turn to use shield on the Prince as will expose rear armour to the Pink Horrors in the tower, so hugs the terrain and will just use scatters.

Shooting; Mace Prince gets taken down by last Serpent on the left flank. Prince near the other Serpent gets shot by scatter lasers though makes all saves.

Assault; Keeper kills a single Wraithguard after rolling poorly; one left. Flesh Hounds take out the last War Walker and consolidate towards the lone Wraithguard.

Daemons; Heldrake flys off the board as cannot do anything. Prince now on foot moves towards the Wave Serpent who shot scatter lasers at him. The other Prince moves with the Hounds to attack the lone Wraithguard. Cultists and Horrors move up, Cultists run and now on top of relic, but cannot pick it up as run is done in shooting turn.

Warp Storm Table - +1 inv saves!

Shooting; Prince lashes the Wave Serpent and fails to damage, other Prince lashes the Wraithguard who makes all the saves.

Assault; Prince slaughters the last Wraithguard before the Flesh Hounds strike. Keeper murders the last Wraithguard and consolidates towards the Wave Serpent, which gets ripped open by the Prince - Avengers disembark towards the Daemons table edge.

Turn 5

Eldar: Serpent left on the left flank moves 6" towards the centre terrain piece and the Avengers bail out, they are just short of getting the relic. Other Avengers move down with hope of getting linebreaker, but with the big monsters about it is not going to happen.

Shooting; Avengers and Serpent waste the Cultists, Avengers battle focus and land on top of the relic. Other Avengers bladestorm the Horrors but only kill one after good saves.

Heldrake comes back on and is ready to burn the Avengers standing in the relic.

Daemons; Keeper moves down to get the Avengers near the Daemon table edge, unfortunately they are 2" away from getting linebreaker. Prince which trashed the Serpent moves to assist Pink Horrors, who move into terrain to get the relic - 1" away! Other Prince moves to trash the last Serpent.

Warp Storm Table - daemonic possession, but no enemy psykers!

Shooting; Heldrake blasts the Avengers and two remain, Prince is out of range and Horrors have ran so cannot shoot at them.

Assault; Prince destroys the last Wave Serpent and Keeper charges the Avengers, slaughters them all.

At this point only two Avengers left who will certainly die next turn.

Daemons with with 3 points for linebreaker, slay the warlord and first blood.

Summary

I really enjoyed the Eldar list, though I think its down fall is fast lists which can cover ground quickly and which the Eldar cannot escape from. I think Ravenwing will be a good test with Serpent spam.

Overall I enjoyed the Eldar list; fast shooty mech suits me well. The Spiritseer is a cool guy and Wraithguard as troops are nice, shame I forgot the spiritmark rule. Still not 100% sold on having Wraithguard for av14 duty, Dragons would be better, but two units against a single av14 vehicle should get the job done. Wave Serpents are boss. Vypers didn't do a lot for me, but I can see their uses. War Walkers are good, but tarpitting them in assault means bad news as their force field actually keeps them alive meaning they survive longer and the enemy unit cannot break free to be shot at again.

Daemons did well and I am surprised I like them considering they do not have a lot of shooty, which is something I like. I guess it is the big monsters I like. The Keeper is pretty meh and requires luck on telepathy to get invisibility - it is good against, It only survives because there's a lot of other threats about, though if someone had spare fire power they could bring it down. Troops are rubbish, but they will have to do. Flesh Hounds are awesome, especially scouting first turn with night fighting as kill them or die or kill them and everything else survives. Heldrake, 'nuff said. Princes are ok, not awesome, but reasonable, probably made their points back.

I think I am happy with the Eldar list over all and will continue to build the list. Daemons will be a new project and I'll buy stuff when I have spare cash. Hopefully should be cheap as only big monsters and cheapo troops.

Few comments:
- I thought that conceal was the Spiritseer and their group only, how did you cast it on the Waveserpent? (Turn 1) Along the sames lines, you then had the WG leave the Waveserpent while the Spiritseer stays inside, but he casts Conceal on them? (Turn 2). I thought that the power remained with the caster, could be wrong though.
- How does a Wraithseer (Monstrous Creature) get into a Waveserpent? (Turn 3)

Nice report overall. 9-)

I'm guessing this was a fun and themed game from the start, as that Eldar list wouldn't survive in any manner of TAC scenario let alone against the flying dumb-dumb list.

Fail from the start for the Eldar, IMO.

On turn 1 it is not possible for your hounds to penetrate any of the wave serpents or vyphers, since you wouldn't of gained the benefit of furious charge, due to multi charging.

Moridan wrote:Few comments:
- I thought that conceal was the Spiritseer and their group only, how did you cast it on the Waveserpent? (Turn 1) Along the sames lines, you then had the WG leave the Waveserpent while the Spiritseer stays inside, but he casts Conceal on them? (Turn 2). I thought that the power remained with the caster, could be wrong though.
- How does a Wraithseer (Monstrous Creature) get into a Waveserpent? (Turn 3)

Nice report overall. 9-)

You're right about the Spiritseer. Only my second game using him and I didn't pay attention to how the power works. Thanks for pointing that out.

No Wraithseer, typo.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:I'm guessing this was a fun and themed game from the start, as that Eldar list wouldn't survive in any manner of TAC scenario let alone against the flying dumb-dumb list.

Fail from the start for the Eldar, IMO.

The Eldar list I believe is a TAC list; it has multiple Wave Serpents which are very good in the Eldar codex.

flying dumb dumb list, you really don't like my army lists do you?

Tear OF The Angel wrote:On turn 1 it is not possible for your hounds to penetrate any of the wave serpents or vyphers, since you wouldn't of gained the benefit of furious charge, due to multi charging.

Didn't know you don't get furious charge for disordered charge. Thanks for letting me know.

 mercer wrote:

Farseer Faenyin wrote:I'm guessing this was a fun and themed game from the start, as that Eldar list wouldn't survive in any manner of TAC scenario let alone against the flying dumb-dumb list.
Fail from the start for the Eldar, IMO.

The Eldar list I believe is a TAC list; it has multiple Wave Serpents which are very good in the Eldar codex.

Wave Serpents are amazing. But I feel this list would struggle immensely against any list with more than AV12 like Necrons with Anni Barges...very common in the current meta. So I don't feel this is a solid TAC at all because of the lack of ranged anti-armor.

 mercer wrote:

flying dumb dumb list, you really don't like my army lists do you?

Actually meant Dumbo, but for some reason went the way of a lolli-pop? I dunno...my mind is odd.

But I will admit I am not a fan of spamming flying creatures/vehicles. It is a copout by the player, due to the simple fact that it doesn't win because you have a good synergy idea that is hard to counter, it is because other armies simply do not have a counter that is available....period. It is the one thing in the current meta that is the 'Oh...one of those lists' scenarios. It makes 6th not nearly as fun as it could be otherwise, at least in my opinion. The overall implimentation of flyers and the counters to them has been poorly handled. The internal balance and external balance is horrid when it comes to flyers and flying monstrous creatures. Granted I understand that bringing something like them into the game is difficult, so I am not really laying blame on the devs for failing, just stating that it didn't work very well...which they may have expected with their first foray into bringing these style of units into regular 40k. I am hoping once we get some more Fortifications with Skyfire/Interceptor it should help a bit, but I am not sure when that would be.

Couple of list questions, mercer:

1. Have you considered a Brightlance/Scatterlaser loadout for the War Walkers? Same cost, arguably more flexible. It seems like this would help with your AV14 and flier problems a lot more than the current loadout.

2. The above change might also let you consider taking D-Scythes on the Wraithguard, which seem really appealing to me, although it would cost a lot.

3. With the Chaos list, why not include the usual Fateweaver/Grimoire combo?

Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Wave Serpents are amazing. But I feel this list would struggle immensely against any list with more than AV12 like Necrons with Anni Barges...very common in the current meta. So I don't feel this is a solid TAC at all because of the lack of ranged anti-armor.

 mercer wrote:

flying dumb dumb list, you really don't like my army lists do you?

Actually meant Dumbo, but for some reason went the way of a lolli-pop? I dunno...my mind is odd.

But I will admit I am not a fan of spamming flying creatures/vehicles. It is a copout by the player, due to the simple fact that it doesn't win because you have a good synergy idea that is hard to counter, it is because other armies simply do not have a counter that is available....period. It is the one thing in the current meta that is the 'Oh...one of those lists' scenarios. It makes 6th not nearly as fun as it could be otherwise, at least in my opinion. The overall implimentation of flyers and the counters to them has been poorly handled. The internal balance and external balance is horrid when it comes to flyers and flying monstrous creatures. Granted I understand that bringing something like them into the game is difficult, so I am not really laying blame on the devs for failing, just stating that it didn't work very well...which they may have expected with their first foray into bringing these style of units into regular 40k. I am hoping once we get some more Fortifications with Skyfire/Interceptor it should help a bit, but I am not sure when that would be.

To solve the ranged serious armour threat I am going to take bright lances on a unit of War Walkers. Also keep in mind that Serpents are fast vehicles and they can get behind the Necron vehicles for rear armour killy. Also something else to keep in mind is how many av13 Necron spam armies do you see?

dumbo I like it

I agree with what you are saying, other armies just do not have enough skyfire to counter it, hence why that list is good. But I will say if you knock a monster down they are not hard to kill and every monster loss is a big problem for the chaos list. A real shooty list like Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights and I would have thought Eldar would do the job. I think Tyranids would do ok too if I am honest.

MrEconomics wrote:Couple of list questions, mercer:

1. Have you considered a Brightlance/Scatterlaser loadout for the War Walkers? Same cost, arguably more flexible. It seems like this would help with your AV14 and flier problems a lot more than the current loadout.

2. The above change might also let you consider taking D-Scythes on the Wraithguard, which seem really appealing to me, although it would cost a lot.

3. With the Chaos list, why not include the usual Fateweaver/Grimoire combo?

Yes, mate, I have considered bright lances but pure lances only. I do need some more punch for tougher av. I will try the bright scatter setup, but I am not a huge fan.

The d-scythes are ok, but doing that War Walker setup wouldn't free any points. I also don't think the d-scythes are worth 10 points extra over the wraithcannons.

Not a fan of Fatey if I am honest and I know it is a-like, but I want to make it my own and stick with Slaanesh Princes and the Keeper.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on War Walkers once you've used the combo. I will probably be starting an Eldar army when I move to the Emirates in a few months and start making some actual money. It will either be mechanized or lots of Jetbikes and Warp Spiders.

It sounds really appealing to me, because at least against Flyers, you average 1.5 Brightlance shots if the Scatter Laser isn't TL'ed. Against other targets, it's 1.33 Brightlance hits vs. .88 Brightlance and 2.67 Scatter Laser hits. But given the Wave Serpents are packing Scatter Lasers too, I can see that you might value more S8 Lance shooting over more S6.

I'll try and see. So far my lance walkers haven't been doing mega awesome.